About Those Oil Prices

[dems4me]

Hmmmmmm. Let me see here. Oil refinery burns down. It'll cost millions to rebuild it (even if I can get the environ-nuts to not oppose all the permits necessary to rebuild). It'll take six years to pay all the permits and taxes to get permission to rebuild. I'll need to pay millions for the engineers to design the refinery that can meet all the gubment standards. Then I have to convince the state of Texas to let me rebuild the refinery. It'll take ten years to rebuild the refinery all the while I have to service the debt and miss out on income from the oil I might have bought and refined. Then I have to sweat out the possibility the Japs might produce a practical electric or hybrid car that eliminates the need for all that gasoline in the fifteen years it take to reconstruct the refinery.

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. The oil barons just keep getting richer.

You stupid cluck!

Good luck rebuilding your refinery

 

[Tonio]

Now because of refinery fires in Texas, the price of a barrel is up over $60.00 again. I just don't think that the prices will ever really go back down, but continue to rise. The Oil Barons just keep getting richer!

As Lenny pointed out, it's ridiculous to use the oil companies as convenient scapegoats. While I'm not schooled in economics, I do know that oil is subject to speculation like any other commodity. I remember when gas prices began rising the day after Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990, even though the invasion wouldn't have a direct effect on America oil supplies for weeks. I feel as uncomfortable as anyone else at seeing gas above $2 a gallon. It's a mystery to me why such a rise in gas prices hasn't plunged America into a major depression.

 

[Bruzilla]

First of all, there is no drilling in the Gulf of Mexico because Governor Jeb Bush of Florida believes that drilling there would harm the state's tourism industry. Secondly, most independent reports suggest that the benefits of drilling in ANWR will only materalize after at least five years and up to twenty years.

rr... as a true Democrat you fail to see the business sides of things rather than the black and white physical side. You're right that it'll take years to really start seeing masses of oil coming from ANWR... but that's not what's important. What's important would be that the fact that the US was preparing to expand domestic oil production, and reduce imports, would cause the oil markets to fall. Just as oil goes up because there's a one in a million chance that some terrorist is going to attack a refinery, it drops whenever there's speculation that supplies are going up.

It's the image, not the reality, that counts in futures markets.

 

[dems4me]

Does this have to do with ANWR?

: Sorry Bruz... theres just something about that statement I just find super funny : :

 

[Bruzilla]

It's a mystery to me why such a rise in gas prices hasn't plunged America into a major depression.

Because despite our whining about paying more, we actually aren't paying too much more. For example, in 1992, a gallon of premilum in MD was selling for $1.25. During Desert Storm it went to $1.45 a gallon, then receded and stabilized due to markets at about $1.35. That's only 10 cents a gallon difference, or about a $1.00 more if you fill most cars when they're half empty. Most people don't notice a $1.00. Between 1993 or so and 2004, the price went from $1.45 to $1.80 over ten years. That's still only a difference of $4.00 per fill-up, noticeable, but the increase was gradual over today's rates. Since 2004 we've gone from $1.80 to $2.20, another $4 increase, but we baseline that increase to the 2004 price, not the 1993 or earlier price, so we see paying $4.00 more per fill-up rather than paying $9.50 more.

And what's $4.00 to most people? It's a number 1 at McDonalds, it's what you spend on a pack of smokes. It's peanuts. And mass producers of gasoline don't pay what we pay, so the impact is even less and they can pass it along to us. That's why there's been nothing but increases un business revenues despite the price of gas.

 

[Tonio]

Because despite our whining about paying more, we actually aren't paying too much more.

I understand that. For me, it's not just the rise in gas prices, it's that combined with the rise in health insurance premiums.

In another thread, you mentioned that Florida's premiums dropped by 50% when the state got tough with doctors who commit malpractice. Can you post some links to the details? I would LOVE to see Maryland adopt similar measures. Here, it seems like those doctors never get defrocked, they only set up shop in another town. I've read that 2 percent of the Maryland docs are responsible for 50 percent of the malpractice cases.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Gas is exactly where it should be in my opinion. In 1981 a gallon of gas cost $1.30 if you account for inflation that would be $3.00 in 2005 dollars so in reality we are really getting off lucky.

Houses keep going up in price, cars keep going up in price, Big Macs keep going up in price why should gasoline be any different?

 

[cyphertext69]

Because despite our whining about paying more, we actually aren't paying too much more. For example, in 1992, a gallon of premilum in MD was selling for $1.25. During Desert Storm it went to $1.45 a gallon, then receded and stabilized due to markets at about $1.35. That's only 10 cents a gallon difference, or about a $1.00 more if you fill most cars when they're half empty. Most people don't notice a $1.00. Between 1993 or so and 2004, the price went from $1.45 to $1.80 over ten years. That's still only a difference of $4.00 per fill-up, noticeable, but the increase was gradual over today's rates. Since 2004 we've gone from $1.80 to $2.20, another $4 increase, but we baseline that increase to the 2004 price, not the 1993 or earlier price, so we see paying $4.00 more per fill-up rather than paying $9.50 more.

And what's $4.00 to most people? It's a number 1 at McDonalds, it's what you spend on a pack of smokes. It's peanuts. And mass producers of gasoline don't pay what we pay, so the impact is even less and they can pass it along to us. That's why there's been nothing but increases un business revenues despite the price of gas.

The funny thing is we only pay nearly $2 a gallon and still complain about it. Yeah I know you dismiss the fact that in some countries it cost about double what we pay. In 1998 Spain paid $1 a liter (approx 4 liters in a gallon)! London, England is just as bad. There is also a funny fact as well, I am serving in the US Military in Iraq currently and the gas prices here are less than a dollar a gallon but people can't afford it.

 

[Tonio]

Houses keep going up in price, cars keep going up in price, Big Macs keep going up in price why should gasoline be any different?

True. Part of it is that gas increased by so much over a short period of time. When gas prices started skyrocketed after 9/11, I had a few moments where I thought, "Holy crap, are we going to be paying $10 a gallon in a couple of years?"

 

[Triggerfish]

What do you all think of biofuels? According to the latest National Geographic magazine if we double the farm land in the country the nation would be completely free of dependence on foreign oil.

 

[Railroad]

Were any of you around in the '70's when the first "oil crisis" happened and gas doubled and then tripled in price, and reached $1.00 a gallon for the first time ever? Big oil companies took advantage of the situation and gouged the heck out of us. Prices remain high and keep getting higher. I feel robbed every time I buy gas, and yes, $2.00+ per gallon does hurt my budget - I want to be saving that money for the future, or spending it on other things, not giving it away to the oil industry in exchange for a dribble of gasoline.

As far as our source for oil is concerned, I feel that all along we should have been aggressively exploring and drilling in our own territory, instead of paying arabs for theirs.

 

[Tonio]

th

I feel robbed every time I buy gas, and yes, $2.00+ per gallon does hurt my budget - I want to be saving that money for the future, or spending it on other things, not giving it away to the oil industry in exchange for a dribble of gasoline.

I agree. I think gasoline is an emotional issue as well as an economic issue, because it's such a vital commodity. It's a challenge to feel secure about the future when gas prices rise so much and so fast.

 

[Ken King]

Why not ethyl alcohol (ethynol)? It only costs about $1.23 a gallon (April 2005 info) while gasoline is running around $2.20 a gallon (lowest grade). With our technology one would think that we could make a conversion from fossil fuels to alcohol quickly. Doing so would reduce our dependence on foriegn production and control.

 

[willie]

Why not ethyl alcohol (ethynol)? It only costs about $1.23 a gallon (April 2005 info) while gasoline is running around $2.20 a gallon (lowest grade). With our technology one would think that we could make a conversion from fossil fuels to alcohol quickly. Doing so would reduce our dependence on foriegn production and control.

I believe most new vehicles can handle 10% alcohol but it takes a richer mixture for equal power so mileage drops. Some hoses and fittings don't like alcohol in a heavier dose. I like the idea of diesels running on french fry fat. The concern I would have for anything that would save the customer money is Big Oil would get it from us somehow but at least OPEC would lose. I have never heard a reasonable explanation why #2 fuel oil and diesel fuel are more expensive than premium gasoline when they are at the bottom of the refining process.

 

[czygvtwkr]

I have never heard a reasonable explanation why #2 fuel oil and diesel fuel are more expensive than premium gasoline when they are at the bottom of the refining process.

Its because they contain longer chains of hydrocarbons and they can be "cracked" to give more shorter hydrocarbon chain fuels like gasoline. They also have a higher energy density than gasoline.

 

[czygvtwkr]

I also read that we can actually make gasoline out of coal and it would cost about 1.80 a gallon but gasoline companies dont want to take the chance of making the investment and having oil go down in price and their investment being wasted.

There are many good alternative fuels
biodisel, E85 (85% Ethanol 15% gasoline), Compressed Natural Gas, Liquid Propane Gas come to mind.

 

[Triggerfish]

Like I stated how about biofuels? The last few posts were about biofuels.......alcohol, vegetable/canola/peanut oil. When Diseal invented the diseal engine and presented it at the world fair he used either peanut or vegetable oil.

From plants we can make fuels that will run gasoline and diseal engines.

 

[czygvtwkr]

I did say biodiesels. It would be cool to grow your fuel.

I think we need a better energy bill that encourages people to do stuff like install geothermal heating, personal windmills and solar cells, better house insulation, LED lighting etc. I have always found this field interesting, and no I am not a tree hugging hippie I am an engineer that sees a lot of untapped potential (and potential to make a lot of money).

 

[Triggerfish]

I did say biodiesels.

Yup, I did read that.

 

[Triggerfish]

I did say biodiesels. It would be cool to grow your fuel.

I think we need a better energy bill that encourages people to do stuff like install geothermal heating, personal windmills and solar cells, better house insulation, LED lighting etc. I have always found this field interesting, and no I am not a tree hugging hippie I am an engineer that sees a lot of untapped potential (and potential to make a lot of money).

I replaced most of my lightbulbs with compact Fluorescents. I just finished a research paper on human inpact on the Chesapeake and it was an eye opener of how bad the health of the Bay is.