Age of the world

[Bustem' Down]

So what if the science of men was found to be wrong. That has often been done. Flat earth (Bible says it is round in the Old Testament), earth center of the universe, man can't travel faster than a galloping horse, universe made of four elements, the list goes on and on. What if carbon-14 dating is not correct? Based on bad assumptions? http://drdino.com/articles.php?spec=73 Now this comes from a Christian site, so I know it will be suspect in the scientific purists eyes, but it is food for thought.

But written history is older than 6000 years. This topic turned out a bit more interesting than I thought. My original intent was to settle a debate. I said that a lot of Christians believed that the earth was no more than 10,000 years old, and my friend said no way anyone believes that. Thanks everyone.

 

[MMDad]

But written history is older than 6000 years. This topic turned out a bit more interesting than I thought. My original intent was to settle a debate. I said that a lot of Christians believed that the earth was no more than 10,000 years old, and my friend said no way anyone believes that. Thanks everyone.

It's unfair to make this a Christian only issue. As 2A pointed out, this is an old testament issue, therefore it includes the Jews and everyone else who believes the old testament.

 

[Tonio]

I've yet to see where science and religion don't clash, and I have a hard time getting the two to converge in my mind. Like you say, the Bible says one thing but scientific evidence points somewhere else...My thoughts exactly. Why bother if God created it all and we shouldn't have to seek answers.

What I'm suggesting is that science and religion are about two different sets of answers. I see science as about the mechanics of life, the body. I see religion as about the mysteries of existence, the soul. I think that the pursuits of both answers are worthy endeavors for anyone, because they complement one another. The pursuit of only one or the other limits the person's perspective.

I think science conflicts not with religion in general but with religious dogma, which I see as completely different from the ideas of faith and spirituality. In my view, dogma and doctrine often end up as straitjackets on thought. I see faith as what the individual believes and dogma as what others want the individual to believe.

I don't like the idea of ignoring evidence of my senses or ignoring scientific evidence simply for the sake of dogma. To me, that feels like the Party in Orwell's "1984" teaching citizens to not trust the evidence of their eyes and ears.

 

[SamSpade]

So what if the science of men was found to be wrong. That has often been done. Flat earth (Bible says it is round in the Old Testament), earth center of the universe, man can't travel faster than a galloping horse, universe made of four elements, the list goes on and on. What if carbon-14 dating is not correct? Based on bad assumptions? http://drdino.com/articles.php?spec=73 Now this comes from a Christian site, so I know it will be suspect in the scientific purists eyes, but it is food for thought.

Carbon-14 is not the only means of dating - in fact, its SHORT half-life makes it fairly useless for anything more than a few million years *tops*, and generally only good for a hundred thousand or so. Further, it's really only good on actual bones that have absorbed Carbon-14 while the creature it was IN was alive, because the premise is that living matter is eating, breathing and drinking carbon-14 continually while it is alive, so that its bones have a certain level in them, but once they DIE, they stop ingesting it - and so the decay begins. I've heard people try to 'debunk' carbon-14 dating by presenting samples that totally fall outside these parameters - when I hear those situations, I know they have no interest in actually learning about it; they just want to claim they're right.

A good scientist practices good science when he can corroborate his data with other means; when he can challenge his conclusions with experimentation; when he can predict future occurrences; and when he can satisfactorily DISPROVE his conclusions with an experiment or observation. Any GOOD theory should be able to be disproved with an observation or experiment - when that possiblity is eliminated, it's no longer science.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Carbon-14 is not the only means of dating - in fact, its SHORT half-life makes it fairly useless for anything more than a few million years *tops*, and generally only good for a hundred thousand or so. Further, it's really only good on actual bones that have absorbed Carbon-14 while the creature it was IN was alive, because the premise is that living matter is eating, breathing and drinking carbon-14 continually while it is alive, so that its bones have a certain level in them, but once they DIE, they stop ingesting it - and so the decay begins. I've heard people try to 'debunk' carbon-14 dating by presenting samples that totally fall outside these parameters - when I hear those situations, I know they have no interest in actually learning about it; they just want to claim they're right.

A good scientist practices good science when he can corroborate his data with other means; when he can challenge his conclusions with experimentation; when he can predict future occurrences; and when he can satisfactorily DISPROVE his conclusions with an experiment or observation. Any GOOD theory should be able to be disproved with an observation or experiment - when that possiblity is eliminated, it's no longer science.

But even presenting samples within the "time line" for C-14, the C-14 dating method makes some assumptions any one of which being wrong throws everything off. They are assumed because no one made or was capable of making measurements of C-14 levels even one half life ago. I and many contend that creation didn't even exist a C-14 half life ago.

But none of this will prove anything. Faith is the basis for evolution just as it is for Judaism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, and Christianity.

 

[Toxick]

Look at what is happening to the Jews, specifically, the Israelites and read the books of prophesy.

Can you elaborate on this. I'm not sure what's happening to the Jews.

 

[2ndAmendment]

The very fact that the nation of Israel is a nation again is a fulfillment of the prophesy in Isaiah.

Isaiah 66-6-9

6"A voice of uproar from the city, a voice from the temple,
The voice of the LORD who is rendering recompense to His enemies.
7"Before she travailed, she brought forth;
Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
8"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be brought forth all at once?
As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.
9"Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD.
"Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God.

The state of Israel was proclaimed by the Jewish leader, David Ben Gurion, on May 14, 1948, and officially came into being on the 15th, after British Mandatory rule ended at midnight. Immediately following the proclamation of Israeli statehood armies from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq declared war on the new nation. Arab soldiers overwhelmingly outnumbered the Israelis, and their invading forces were equipped with superior weaponry. But Israel survived.

The books of prophesy of the Old Testament deal with treaties that Israel will sign with Egypt and others all of which will eventually fail. Isaiah also foretold the holocaust. If you study the books of prophesy, you can tell where the Jews and hence the earth is in the prophetic history. I admit, I have read them but do not study them enough to be authoritative.

The day of Christ's return is coming. The prophetic books give us insight into when but not an exact time. No one knows when Y'shua will return. He even said that. I am more concerned that the word of God about His free gift of salvation is spread. If you have Jesus as Savior and Lord, it does not matter when He returns.

 

[SmallTown]

The day of Christ's return is coming. The prophetic books give us insight into when but not an exact time. No one knows when Y'shua will return. He even said that. I am more concerned that the word of God about His free gift of salvation is spread. If you have Jesus as Savior and Lord, it does not matter when He returns.

I thought he returned in Waco, TX?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I thought he returned in Waco, TX?

Obviously not.

Matthew 24

Signs of Christ's Return

1Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him.

2And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."

3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

4And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.

5"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

6"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

7"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

8"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

10"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

11"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

12"Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.

13"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Perilous Times

15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

17"Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.

18"Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.

19"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20"But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.

24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

25"Behold, I have told you in advance.

26"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.

27"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28"Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

The Glorious Return

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Parable of the Fig Tree

32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;

33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

38"For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

40"Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

41"Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

Be Ready for His Coming

42"Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

43"But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

44"For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

45"Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46"Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

47"Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

48"But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'

49and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;

50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

51and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[SmallTown]

Just can't believe anyone anymore when they say they are Jesus.

Too bad though. Can you imagine the support the republicans would gain? All they would have to say is:
"The Dems? They killed jesus."
That alone would be enough to win at least 9 or 10 presedential elections.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Just can't believe anyone anymore when they say they are Jesus.

Too bad though. Can you imagine the support the republicans would gain? All they would have to say is:
"The Dems? They killed jesus."
That alone would be enough to win at least 9 or 10 presedential elections.

No one killed Jesus. He is alive! Remember Easter? Or is your Easter about some rabbit? The Romans killed Him for a period, but only as fulfillment of God's plan of salvation. So I am responsible for the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus just as you, Dems, Vrai, catt, Jazz, Karad, slotted, and everyone one else is.

 

[Tonio]

"The Dems? They killed jesus."

That alone would be enough to win at least 9 or 10 presedential elections.

Tom DeLay once equated people who opposed his legislative agenda (not necessarily Democrats) with those who crucified Jesus.

 

[Tonio]

Nothing in the Bible even suggests that there in not life elsewhere in the universe.

My point was that some Christians believe that the Bible rules out life elsewhere. Not in what the Bible says, but in what the Bible doesn't say.

I read recently that religious leaders in ancient Greece and medieval Europe pressured scientists to ignore fossils, claiming that fossils contradicted their religions' teachings.

 

[2ndAmendment]

...
I read recently that religious leaders in ancient Greece and medieval Europe pressured scientists to ignore fossils, claiming that fossils contradicted their religions' teachings.

And there is fossil evidence that scientists will not regard because they contradict their preconceived notions.

We each will know who is right and who is wrong at the instant of our death in this life.

 

[2ndAmendment]

My point was that some Christians believe that the Bible rules out life elsewhere. Not in what the Bible says, but in what the Bible doesn't say.

Some Christians believe you have to handle poisonous snakes to prove you are a Christian. That is false also.

Omission states nothing. No position. I reserve my decision until aliens show up, death in this life, or the return of Jesus, whichever occurs first. In the scheme of things and my life, whether there are aliens or not is irrelevant.

 

[Tonio]

Some Christians believe you have to handle poisonous snakes to prove you are a Christian. That is false also.

But why would it be false? For what matter, why would it be true? In my view, no one should require or pressure anyone else to hold a certain religious belief.

 

[cholo]

No one killed Jesus. He is alive! Remember Easter? Or is your Easter about some rabbit?

Not just any rabbit...the freakin' Easter Bunny himself!

 

[2ndAmendment]

But why would it be false? For what matter, why would it be true? In my view, no one should require or pressure anyone else to hold a certain religious belief.

But that is only you. Whether you chose to believe or not, the Bible does set certain requirements for entry into heaven. We all will have an afterlife; some will be highly pleasant and some will be horrible.

The Bible says people will be able to handle poisonous serpents without harm. It does not say you have to to be worthy or prove your faith. That is where their belief is false. Just as some in the church I go to believe you have to speak in tongues. My minister says you should be able to speak in tongues. Not quite the same. The Bible says that tongues is an evidence of being empowered by the Holy Spirit. It also says that not all have the gift of tongues.

 

[SmallTown]

No one killed Jesus. He is alive! Remember Easter? Or is your Easter about some rabbit? The Romans killed Him for a period, but only as fulfillment of God's plan of salvation. So I am responsible for the suffering and crucifixion of Jesus just as you, Dems, Vrai, catt, Jazz, Karad, slotted, and everyone one else is.

keep up, we were talking about the wacko in waco

 

[Tonio]

But that is only you. Whether you chose to believe or not, the Bible does set certain requirements for entry into heaven.

My point is that the truth of any religious holy book is a matter of personal faith. No such book is true for everyone just because some people believe it is.