Allow Evil to Exist

This_person

Well-Known Member
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I don't even remember what your denying as fact this time. Why don't you give it up? Evidence leads to theory; then the theory is either confirmed or we start over. Religion doesn't work like that THEREFORE science =/= faith. Science is based on reason, religion is based on feelings. There is no evidence to support the existence (nor non-existence) of any deity let alone your specific idea of a deity.

I am not denying anything specific because you have offered nothing specific except the claim you have proof or evidence of that shows scientific theories are actually facts not theories. That is what I am asking you to back up. .both know you can not back it up, I just expect you to admit it. Meanwhile, I still have made the statement that my faith is faith. See, I know t
that when "evidence" supports my theory and other theories, there is no proof of any theory being fact. Are YOU aware of that for the conjecture-supported-by-evidence in which you believe?
 

UNA

New Member
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This_person said:
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I don't even remember what your denying as fact this time. Why don't you give it up? Evidence leads to theory; then the theory is either confirmed or we start over. Religion doesn't work like that THEREFORE science =/= faith. Science is based on reason, religion is based on feelings. There is no evidence to support the existence (nor non-existence) of any deity let alone your specific idea of a deity.

I am not denying anything specific because you have offered nothing specific except the claim you have proof or evidence of that shows scientific theories are actually facts not theories. That is what I am asking you to back up. .both know you can not back it up, I just expect you to admit it. Meanwhile, I still have made the statement that my faith is faith. See, I know t
that when "evidence" supports my theory and other theories, there is no proof of any theory being fact. Are YOU aware of that for the conjecture-supported-by-evidence in which you believe?

I never said that scientific theories are actually facts...theories are theories and facts are facts. Why don't you try looking those words up? Might help if you actually know how they're used in the scientific community rather than assigning your definitions.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
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I never said that scientific theories are actually facts...theories are theories and facts are facts. Why don't you try looking those words up? Might help if you actually know how they're used in the scientific community rather than assigning your definitions.

Okay, let's see how that works:
Like I've said in the past; there's no point in continuing this. You continue to deny ANY evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct and to have full faith in your theory...with zero evidence. There's nothing wrong with you having your faith, but when you actively ignore the facts that are out there is when there is a problem. So like I said, no point. :shrug:
So, the "evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct" doesn't really mean you believe there is evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct? :lmao:

Maybe you should reconsider your position before challenging my understanding. I believe there are pieces of evidence that support several theories - ones you would call scientific and more than just those - but not to the exclusion of all other theories. Those pieces of evidence are not proof a scientific theory is correct - they merely support the theory. I do not now nor have I ever denied that the pieces of evidence exist, nor that the way they are interpretted support a given theory. I just know the difference between proof/fact and support.

I am not the one making outrageous claims. I continue to suggest what I've maintained all along - I have no proof of my faith, thus it is faith. You have no proof of your faith, yet you don't consider it faith. You think that because there's something out there that does not disprove your theory, it must be true/fact. I know better than that.
 

UNA

New Member
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This_person said:
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I never said that scientific theories are actually facts...theories are theories and facts are facts. Why don't you try looking those words up? Might help if you actually know how they're used in the scientific community rather than assigning your definitions.

Okay, let's see how that works:
Like I've said in the past; there's no point in continuing this. You continue to deny ANY evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct and to have full faith in your theory...with zero evidence. There's nothing wrong with you having your faith, but when you actively ignore the facts that are out there is when there is a problem. So like I said, no point. :shrug:
So, the "evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct" doesn't really mean you believe there is evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct? :lmao:

Maybe you should reconsider your position before challenging my understanding. I believe there are pieces of evidence that support several theories - ones you would call scientific and more than just those - but not to the exclusion of all other theories. Those pieces of evidence are not proof a scientific theory is correct - they merely support the theory. I do not now nor have I ever denied that the pieces of evidence exist, nor that the way they are interpretted support a given theory. I just know the difference between proof/fact and support.

I am not the one making outrageous claims. I continue to suggest what I've maintained all along - I have no proof of my faith, thus it is faith. You have no proof of your faith, yet you don't consider it faith. You think that because there's something out there that does not disprove your theory, it must be true/fact. I know better than that.

I think you've intentionally misunderstood the point I was making; it takes evidence to begin to prove a scientific theory, I apologize, I thought you had a basic understanding ofthe process.

And here: maybe this will help too:

Faith: "2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust" (I skipped to #2 because #1 was concerning loyalty to an individual).

Science =\= God nor religion

Have a nice day :smile:
 

atheos

User
...


Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:19

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 2 Timothy 2:23-24

Do all things without grumbling or questioning, Philippians 2:14

And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 2 Timothy 2:24
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I think you've intentionally misunderstood the point I was making; it takes evidence to begin to prove a scientific theory, I apologize, I thought you had a basic understanding ofthe process.

And here: maybe this will help too:

Faith: "2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust" (I skipped to #2 because #1 was concerning loyalty to an individual).

Science =\= God nor religion

Have a nice day :smile:
No, I understood the point you were making. I was demonstrating that it is false.

Let's take an example: science creates a hypothesis or two. One, for example, is that the earth rotates about an axis, and the sun stays in a relatively fixed position with respect to the earth's position. Another is that the sun rotates about the earth, which stays in a relatively fixed position with respect to the sun. Now, we observe the facts, the proof: we observe that the sun appears to rise up in the east each morning. That piece of evidence, that fact, equally proves both theories have merit. Now, we can see that the two theories are diametrically opposed to one another, yet they both have evidence/proof/fact to back them up.

So, when you suggest that there is "evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct", you are stating the theory is correct. It is not, it is but one of many theories, all with evidence that supports the theories, some of which are diametrically opposed from the other. Having a piece of information support your theory does not prove your theory correct.

Clearly, I understand the process. Clearly, you need to look into it a bit to get what I'm trying to tell you.

****EDIT****: Before you go off on an inaccurate tangent and claim I do not believe the earth revolves on its own axis and that the earth revolves around the sun, I believe those things. My point was process in the absense of other proof, which exists for the sun/earth rotation question. However, I asked for the proof that you claimed existed, the evidence that scientific theory is correct. We both know (or, at least, I give you the credit for knowing) that a theory is no longer a theory when it is "proven" correct. I asked for proof that all of life could come from a single cell - none exists. i asked for proof that a single cell of life could be created from the conditions existing when the theory suggested such a thing occured - none exists. Thus, the scientific theory, to "believe" it, is to believe in something for which there is no proof. That makes it akin to religion.

If you believe in the PROCESS of science, you must allow for religion to be a potential source of an answer. To suggest that science cannot prove religion is to suggest to a caveman that quantum physics has no validity because that caveman cannot prove the thoughts behind quantum physics. It is small minded and bigotted to suggest such a thing. It suggests your unproven (but supported by some evidence) theory is more valid than someone else's unproven (but supported by equally compelling evidence) theory.

Surely you're not that small minded and bigotted, are you?
 
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UNA

New Member
No, I understood the point you were making. I was demonstrating that it is false.

Let's take an example: science creates a hypothesis or two. One, for example, is that the earth rotates about an axis, and the sun stays in a relatively fixed position with respect to the earth's position. Another is that the sun rotates about the earth, which stays in a relatively fixed position with respect to the sun. Now, we observe the facts, the proof: we observe that the sun appears to rise up in the east each morning. That piece of evidence, that fact, equally proves both theories have merit. Now, we can see that the two theories are diametrically opposed to one another, yet they both have evidence/proof/fact to back them up.

So, when you suggest that there is "evidence and/or proof that scientific theory is correct", you are stating the theory is correct. It is not, it is but one of many theories, all with evidence that supports the theories, some of which are diametrically opposed from the other. Having a piece of information support your theory does not prove your theory correct.

Clearly, I understand the process. Clearly, you need to look into it a bit to get what I'm trying to tell you.

Maybe I'm not being clear...evidence (and the verification thereof) is what we ultimately use to prove a theory true i.e. a fact...no evidence: no fact. There is indeed evidence of a lot...for example there is personal/individual of your god, however that evidence cannot be verified by anyone else hence the lack of facts. I apologize, I didn't realize you thought I was that ignorant to my own claims; in what universe does a theory mean fact? Am I the only one who uses dictionaries around here?? I guess I shouldn't have assumed that it was a given that theory doesn't equal fact and that everyone know that. :shrug:

****EDIT****: Before you go off on an inaccurate tangent and claim I do not believe the earth revolves on its own axis and that the earth revolves around the sun, I believe those things. My point was process in the absense of other proof, which exists for the sun/earth rotation question. However, I asked for the proof that you claimed existed, the evidence that scientific theory is correct. We both know (or, at least, I give you the credit for knowing) that a theory is no longer a theory when it is "proven" correct. I asked for proof that all of life could come from a single cell - none exists. i asked for proof that a single cell of life could be created from the conditions existing when the theory suggested such a thing occured - none exists. Thus, the scientific theory, to "believe" it, is to believe in something for which there is no proof. That makes it akin to religion.

No...again...religion is "b the service and worship of God or the supernatural" (again, I used part b because part a used the word religion :lol:) The distinction between scientific theory and other (non-scientific) theories is that there does indeed exists evidence beyond the individual however it remains a theory with the lack of verification. Again, sorry...thought this was a given. You know, there are online dictionaries :yay:

If you believe in the PROCESS of science, you must allow for religion to be a potential source of an answer. To suggest that science cannot prove religion is to suggest to a caveman that quantum physics has no validity because that caveman cannot prove the thoughts behind quantum physics. It is small minded and bigotted to suggest such a thing.

Did I imply that I don't believe that religion may be a potential source of an answer? Are you assuming things you don't know again...? :killingme I just don't go around claiming my religion to be the on true fact (as some do) nor do I claim that science is as flimsy as faith WRT understanding our world.

It suggests your unproven (but supported by some evidence) theory is more valid than someone else's unproven (but supported by equally compelling evidence) theory.

Yes, I do suggest that evidence that people can sense is more valid than evidence no one can sense. Your arguing that invisible evidence is as valid?

Surely you're not that small minded and bigotted, are you?

Seriously? May I ask where this judgment comes from? From that fact that I don't agree with your faith? Or is it because I choose to speak my mind on the topic as often and with similar fervor as those with whom you do tend to agree? I know you technically posed this as a question but I'm sensing some indignation here? Am I wrong?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Maybe I'm not being clear...evidence (and the verification thereof) is what we ultimately use to prove a theory true i.e. a fact...no evidence: no fact. ... Am I the only one who uses dictionaries around here?? I guess I shouldn't have assumed that it was a given that theory doesn't equal fact and that everyone know that. :shrug:
Okay, good. Now we are on the same page and realize that your previous claim that there is proof that science is correct does not exist. Thus, no evidence: no fact. Thus, you only have support for your theory, just like I do.

It's good to see you coming around.
No...again...religion is "b the service and worship of God or the supernatural" (again, I used part b because part a used the word religion :lol:) The distinction between scientific theory and other (non-scientific) theories is that there does indeed exists evidence beyond the individual however it remains a theory with the lack of verification. Again, sorry...thought this was a given. You know, there are online dictionaries :yay:
There are. You provided one definition that was perfect for faith: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". You established above that you acknowledge there is supporting evidence, but no proof. Thus, you explained your belief in science as fact is simple faith.
Did I imply that I don't believe that religion may be a potential source of an answer?
Yes
Are you assuming things you don't know again...? :killingme
No
I just don't go around claiming my religion to be the one true fact (as some do) nor do I claim that science is as flimsy as faith WRT understanding our world.
But, it is. The one difference you can claim, inaccurately, is that science is seeking the answer whereas religion believes they have the answer. By admonishing religion as "flimsy" you are showing your disdain that you asked about above, and it has shown throughout your posts. By suggesting your faith has more answers than religion, you are simply mistaken, at best, or dishonest at worst. There is simply no proof that science is even close to an answer. None. To believe they will get there is great faith indeed.
Yes, I do suggest that evidence that people can sense is more valid than evidence no one can sense. Your arguing that invisible evidence is as valid?
No, I'm arguing that a guess based on observation of physical facts is no better than a guess based on other personal experiences.

If science has a working model, start with nothing and create a universe. Then, allow your peers to repeat it. Short of that, you're just guessing. We guessed there were only three elements in the world at one point, and could "prove" it. We guessed the world was flat, and could "prove" it. Until you can actually prove it, it's absolutely nothing more than a guess based on observations. Your faith in that seems very strong.
Seriously? May I ask where this judgment comes from? From that fact that I don't agree with your faith? Or is it because I choose to speak my mind on the topic as often and with similar fervor as those with whom you do tend to agree? I know you technically posed this as a question but I'm sensing some indignation here? Am I wrong?
Yes, you're wrong. I suggested that you are not small minded and bigoted, and that you would prove it by not acting that way.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
This is unsettling...

Virtually every english version of this quote has the word "arguing" where you highlighted "questioning".

Either way, you are suggesting I should not question the validity of what you called scientific proof of fact (until I showed you that's what you said, at which point you took it back and said you didn't mean what you said). I question the validity of a field of study that denies its own shortcomings, and that is wrong - how?
 

atheos

User
You both are wrong.


You both are right.


5 pages of 40 post each 'proving' this or that. Saying the same thing 3 different ways. I think it is okay to move on knowing you did everyting you could and made every point you can.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
You both are wrong.


You both are right.


5 pages of 40 post each 'proving' this or that. Saying the same thing 3 different ways. I think it is okay to move on knowing you did everyting you could and made every point you can.

I appreciate your permission :lol:
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
You both are wrong.


You both are right.


5 pages of 40 post each 'proving' this or that. Saying the same thing 3 different ways. I think it is okay to move on knowing you did everyting you could and made every point you can.

Yeah. Let's start a new thread and start the process all over again.
 

UNA

New Member
Wirelessly posted

atheos said:
This is unsettling...

What about it does not sit right with you?

That your bible tells you not to question. That doesn't bother you? We should always question...everything all the time. This is how we protect ourselves from corruption. Hundreds of lives could have been saved if more people had questioned Jim Jones. Just sayin'
 

UNA

New Member
Okay, good. Now we are on the same page and realize that your previous claim that there is proof that science is correct does not exist. Thus, no evidence: no fact. Thus, you only have support for your theory, just like I do.

It's good to see you coming around.

You're getting there...I 'only have support for some theories and the things science calls facts, we have proof for. Do you not believe in ANY scientific fact?


There are. You provided one definition that was perfect for faith: "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". You established above that you acknowledge there is supporting evidence, but no proof. Thus, you explained your belief in science as fact is simple faith.

Supporting evidence for scientific theories and your faith, proof for scientific fact. Are you operating under the impression that I believe that any and all scientific theories are true??


Didn't mean to...don't know where you got this from though.


You sure? :lol:

But, it is. The one difference you can claim, inaccurately, is that science is seeking the answer whereas religion believes they have the answer. By admonishing religion as "flimsy" you are showing your disdain that you asked about above, and it has shown throughout your posts. By suggesting your faith has more answers than religion, you are simply mistaken, at best, or dishonest at worst. There is simply no proof that science is even close to an answer. None. To believe they will get there is great faith indeed.

You say that science isn't close to an answer, who said there was an answer, there are many answers because there are many questions. There's no one answer to 'life the universe and everything'. Science is about getting the answers to ALL the questions, we're not there yet but science is constantly striving to find answers, evaluating and re-evaluating the world.

No, I'm arguing that a guess based on observation of physical facts is no better than a guess based on other personal experiences.

If science has a working model, start with nothing and create a universe. Then, allow your peers to repeat it. Short of that, you're just guessing. We guessed there were only three elements in the world at one point, and could "prove" it. We guessed the world was flat, and could "prove" it. Until you can actually prove it, it's absolutely nothing more than a guess based on observations. Your faith in that seems very strong.

They aren't guesses when there is evidence and proof. If I said the sky was blue rather than purple would you say that I'm guessing? You seem to be operating under yet another delusion that science claims to have all the answers (i.e. creation) and that science has never got it wrong (i.e. flat Earth). Remember who perpetuated such fallacies and the geocentric solar system...the church...

Yes, you're wrong. I suggested that you are not small minded and bigoted, and that you would prove it by not acting that way.

OK, so now because I asked a question I'm bigoted? Please tell me where I've displayed bigotry here. I think you're confusing disagreement with prejudice. Your main argument here is that science if just as faith based as your religion. My argument is that science is the "state of knowing distinguished from ignorance and misunderstanding" (Webster's) and therefore involves facts (preceded by theories) and religion is the "worship of the supernatural" (Webster's) and therefore involves faith (preceded by more faith).
 
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