Amateurs ruining the profession...

[glhs837]

Well just don't fix your own computer, car or tackle home improvements. Think of all the money you are taking from the professionals! If you decide to be a rebel, do not take pictures of your progress!

Oh, hell, I've wrecked the whole damn economy. Tens of folks, out of work, because i can swap an engine and rebuild a bathroom. And the boy!!!!!! He built his own computer this Christmas!!!!!! Wait, does this mean I should never cook again either? Wouldt want to put all those busboys and cooks out of work. I suppose I should sell the car too, since there I dont want to ruin the limousine industry.

 

[Bann]

I hung my own curtains today. I guess I've caused an interior decorator to miss out on some income and may have to go on food stamps.

 

[wch]

Probably should have picked a career that demanded a B.S degree, certification, special training, or perhaps was not so competitive when it comes to the amount of people involved, I still look at it as an art, hobby

 

[Larry Gude]

So you can thank the amateurs for ruining the profession…

Today I was at a swim meet covering the event for the paper/website, and here is a guy shooting (which his name will remain anonymous) and I asked him why don't you charge for your photos on your smugmug account? His reply was I don't have/pay a pro account (this is where you can set your own prices), so I told him this is hurting the guys/gals and yourself trying to put bread on the table. His account (smugmug) allows for anyone to download the images for free or get them printed at cost, basically 0.21 cents for a 4x6.

Now I know he has a LONG way to go on improving to capture peek images, but if there is NO intent of ever becoming a professional, just stay in the stands just like the other parents do. Or if you do then apply at the media outlets and show them your portfolio. I understand you want to get photos of your OWN kids, (which is not the case because he shoots everyone from other teams) but if that was the case EVERYONE with a camera would be on the field, court side, pool side, ect…

You would never show up at a hospital and ask if you can perform surgery because you own a scalpel and have read a lot of articles about the procedure on the internet, so it annoys me to no end that anyone who owns a DSLR thinks they can show up at my place of business and pretend to do my job.

What are your thought other semi / pros out there, or am I way off on this subject??

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug

Hi Frank. My interest here is that one of my kids is seeking to do this for a living. I understand your OP in terms of recommending amateurs charge at least something for shots that are more or less directly competing with your work and, as long as there are no copyright issues, I would concur; why not charge a few books as easy as it is these days to take pics, load them and set up a paypal or other service to get paid.

Now, that said, how much traffic is someone like you mention getting anyway? I mean, if they are building a reputation and a following, lots of hits, sure they really ought to consider charging. But, how much of an impact do the people you are talking about really have?

You mention you were at the meet professionally. Are they cutting your pay? Using free pictures? I mean, whomever is paying you, sending you to the meet has some business model to place value on your shots over stuff they find on the web, right? And then, can they really use someones free pics for publication?

Explain how all that works because, while I sympathize with objecting to people giving lots of good shots away for free to strangers, I also suspect that their impact can't really be that much in terms of why a pro is getting sent, and paid, in the first place.

Or no?

 

[bigluke33]

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug

I would spend time working on a new business plan rather than trying to find people that agree with you on a forum.

 

[Baja28]

Ok, well there seems to be only replies from hobbyist / amateurs. (Professional = rely on at least 51% of your income from your job, NOT selling one image like someone stated earlier).

I thought in the photo forum I would get replies from people in the industry, even thou it's a 'public' forum I know that. I have no idea on who anyone is except for a few people who actually post with there 'real' name and not hide behind some made up name in this forum. So I have a hard time with creditability on anything people say without putting their name with it...

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell.

I didn't intend for this to get into a pissing match, but just an eye opener for people that need to 'earn' a buck...

Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug

If amatuers are taking away your profits, what does that say about your ability?

 

[retiredweaxman]

Let me see if I understand this. In my opinion, there are 2 ways a "pro" photographer can make money:

1. He/she is contracted prior to the event (wedding for example). In this example, if he/she does quality work, they get paid. If there is no quality work, then they would not get paid unless there was a stipulation in the signed contract.
2. He/she is not contracted prior to the event (swim meet) and hopes to sell photos after the event to interested parties. I liken this to a cruise where the cruise line snaps pictures during an event (boarding for example) in the hopes of selling pics. Again, if the quality is there and the customer deems it is worth the price, the customer will buy.

It all boils down to quality of the photos and the agreed upon price. If the customer feels they are getting a deal, they will pay for the service.

Having had photos taken on cruises, I can honestly state there were very few times I felt the need to spend 20 bucks on an 8 by 10 photo - regardless if some amateur shot a photo or not of the same event.

What is the true cost of snapping a digital picture, downloading it to a computer, photoshopping if needed (red eye), then printing it out for the customer? Even if you were to charge 20 bucks an hour, I figure 15 minutes to photoshop a pic...so that is 5 bucks. Professional printing paper probably costs 2 bucks a sheet...so I come up with 7. Why charge 20? Lowering the cost might enhance some sales.

Again, I am not a pro...and I do understand mark ups...perhaps my numbers are off...but I find it difficult to believe that 20 bucks is a fair price for 1 8 by 10 photo.

 

[jbr13]

What is the true cost of snapping a digital picture, downloading it to a computer, photoshopping if needed (red eye), then printing it out for the customer? Even if you were to charge 20 bucks an hour, I figure 15 minutes to photoshop a pic...so that is 5 bucks. Professional printing paper probably costs 2 bucks a sheet...so I come up with 7. Why charge 20? Lowering the cost might enhance some sales.

Again, I am not a pro...and I do understand mark ups...perhaps my numbers are off...but I find it difficult to believe that 20 bucks is a fair price for 1 8 by 10 photo.

Retiredweaxman, There are some more costs that you haven't thought of for a photographer covering an event. There are a few different ways photogs do events. Some shoot an event for a paper, and then try to privately sell. This can make some extra bucks here and there. Other photographers get a contract with the event or school and become the official photog for that event. This will cost the photog either straight out of his pocket or a percent of his sales. The third way is to be hired by parents of the kids to shoot their child at the event. This is usually for a fee and they pay for prints after.
The other items that you have to factor in, equipment, travel expense to and from the event, photogs time shooting that event, cost of software, and insurance on you gear. For example if a photog travels to say high school "X" fifteen miles away. That is 30 miles round trip, and about 40 minutes of driving time to cover a 2-3 hour event. Now we are at close to 3-4 hours if you include processing the photo. Equipment can run a photographer a lot of money. From mid level to upper level DSLR with lenses your are looking at $10,000 to $30,000 that a photog can carry to an event. Then also figure in the cost of a program like Photoshop or Lightroom. Granted you have to spread all these cost out over a lot of sells, but you can see how it brings the cost of a photo up.

This debate has been going for years and is nothing new. Pros miss out on possible sells do to parents with a camera, taking photos at the same event. In most cases people aren't interested in quality of the photos, just that they get one of their child playing a sport. The best way for a pro to make it in event photography is to contract with the school to be the official photog. This usually means the pro would have sideline access and others would not be able to shoot from the same areas. I have shot events like this before, even swim meets. Parents had to stay back from the pool a certain distance, while myself and the photographer I was working for could get right up to the edge of the pool. The biggest thing though, is your photos have to stand out over what others are shooting, in quality and in capturing the right moments.

Do I wish people would not give their photos away, yes I do. Is there anything I can do about it, nope! So I move on, take the best photos I can, and try to stand out over and above the others taking photos at the event.

I am not a pro, I don't make 51% of my living taking photos, but I have worked news media, events, and private sells of photography, so classify me as you will.

 

[FMarquart]

Retiredweaxman, There are some more costs that you haven't thought of for a photographer covering an event. There are a few different ways photogs do events. Some shoot an event for a paper, and then try to privately sell. This can make some extra bucks here and there. Other photographers get a contract with the event or school and become the official photog for that event. This will cost the photog either straight out of his pocket or a percent of his sales. The third way is to be hired by parents of the kids to shoot their child at the event. This is usually for a fee and they pay for prints after.
The other items that you have to factor in, equipment, travel expense to and from the event, photogs time shooting that event, cost of software, and insurance on you gear. For example if a photog travels to say high school "X" fifteen miles away. That is 30 miles round trip, and about 40 minutes of driving time to cover a 2-3 hour event. Now we are at close to 3-4 hours if you include processing the photo. Equipment can run a photographer a lot of money. From mid level to upper level DSLR with lenses your are looking at $10,000 to $30,000 that a photog can carry to an event. Then also figure in the cost of a program like Photoshop or Lightroom. Granted you have to spread all these cost out over a lot of sells, but you can see how it brings the cost of a photo up.

This debate has been going for years and is nothing new. Pros miss out on possible sells do to parents with a camera, taking photos at the same event. In most cases people aren't interested in quality of the photos, just that they get one of their child playing a sport. The best way for a pro to make it in event photography is to contract with the school to be the official photog. This usually means the pro would have sideline access and others would not be able to shoot from the same areas. I have shot events like this before, even swim meets. Parents had to stay back from the pool a certain distance, while myself and the photographer I was working for could get right up to the edge of the pool. The biggest thing though, is your photos have to stand out over what others are shooting, in quality and in capturing the right moments.

Do I wish people would not give their photos away, yes I do. Is there anything I can do about it, nope! So I move on, take the best photos I can, and try to stand out over and above the others taking photos at the event.

I am not a pro, I don't make 51% of my living taking photos, but I have worked news media, events, and private sells of photography, so classify me as you will.

Well said Jason, thank you...! This thread was taking the wrong turn.

Frank

 

[jbr13]

Frank, I understand your side of the discussion, but the other side is valid as well. It is up to that individual what they want to do with their images. The market is driven by many things, you could blame Nikon and Canon just as much as a photographer giving images away. Like someone posted in this thread. The same argument could be made about me or you running our own coax for TV, changing a part in our own car, or working on our own computers. Think of how many times you have read what pro photogs advise people to do to get their start in sports photography. They say submit your photos to a local media, even suggest giving them a few freebies. Just to get in the door. That is supposed to help you get media creds, but is it not taking away from someone elses paycheck?

 

[IntruderAlert]

Here is another example, you have to think of the global effects. True, you are not taking money out of the photographers pocket directly, but you are indirectly. You gave away images at Game A at a home game. Kid now plays in Game B at an away tournament where there is a hired photographer and he is not able to sell anything because you gave away all the images in Game A and they have what they want. If everyone does that you and believe me, more and more are, it makes it very tough for a photographer to make a sell. Frank
FRANK MARQUART's Photos | SmugMug

Hope the fact that my "real" name isn't displayed doesn't take away from this, but I'll take the chance:

So there's a game going on. Frank shows up (assuming Frank is his real name) and everybody else is supposed to put their cameras away so Frank can make a living. Hey, Frank, you are getting model releases from all the participants, right?

 

[Bann]

Hope the fact that my "real" name isn't displayed doesn't take away from this, but I'll take the chance:

So there's a game going on. Frank shows up (assuming Frank is his real name) and everybody else is supposed to put their cameras away so Frank can make a living. Hey, Frank, you are getting model releases from all the participants, right?

 

[FMarquart]

Hope the fact that my "real" name isn't displayed doesn't take away from this, but I'll take the chance:

So there's a game going on. Frank shows up (assuming Frank is his real name) and everybody else is supposed to put their cameras away so Frank can make a living. Hey, Frank, you are getting model releases from all the participants, right?

You have a lot to learn about the business BUT let me help you:

Model Releases are only necessary to publish pictures.
Even then, very specific guidelines are necessary to trigger the need for a release: if the photo suggests someone subscribes to a particular idea, product or service.
It is highly unusual that photographers ever publish images in a manner that requires a model release.
Photographers sell (or license) photos to others who publish those images.
Selling or licensing photos does not require a release.
Such is not a form of publication, nor is it an action that suggests anything about the person in the photo. It is merely a financial transaction.
Placing photos on websites for the purposes of selling them does not require a model release. It is what courts have called a vehicle of information (that the photo is for sale). The buyer of the photo may need a release if and only if the nature of its publication would trigger the need for a release.
Money or profit has nothing whatsoever to do with whether a release is required.
Because the need for a release is only governed by how and whether the person in the photo might be regarded as subscribing to an idea, product or service, it is entirely irrelevant whether money (profit) was made. Similarly, even free uses of photos (or use by non-profits) does not mean that releases are not required. Get the whole idea of money out of your mind.

The easy way to think about this is the simple case of a photo of a high school football player scoring a touchdown, lets say. You can put it up on your website and license it to a newspaper as part of its story on the game. The fact that its editorial means that a release isn't necessary. That you can sell it for such a purpose underscores the reason why you can place it for sale without a release. Just because someone else might want to license the photo in a way that would require a release doesn't suddenly mean you can't place it on your site for sale. Selling doesn't require a release, and you aren't required to know whether a given buyer would require a release for their particular use.

Hope that helps...?

Frank - And yes this is my 'real' name, I don't need to hide behind a screen name...

 

[IntruderAlert]

You have a lot to learn about the business BUT let me help you:

I'm not in the business, BUT thanks for the help anyway. I'll still heed the advice of my friends that are in the business and are true professionals: Get releases or stick with landscapes and still life. Legal or not, I, like them, wouldn't even consider taking pictures of boys and girls wearing wrestling tights and cheerleader outfits then selling them online, especially without even bothering to inform the kids and their parents and getting their consent. Apparently you have no problem doing so, yet you keep your family albums private and restricted from public view.

But you still haven't answered the important question: You were paid to cover the event in question - you gots yo monies. Why do you care that some parents were offering free shots to other parents at the event? Friends can't email other friends crappy point-n-shoot action shots done under poor lighting conditions using an uber-slow, fixed-focus 5x digital zoom 28mm lens (while using the built-in flash from 150 feet away of course), without running you and your $10,000 canikon lens out of business? Seriously?

 

[hvp05]

Legal or not, I, like them, wouldn't even consider taking pictures of boys and girls wearing wrestling tights and cheerleader outfits then selling them online, especially without even bothering to inform the kids and their parents and getting their consent.

That is a slightly asinine comment. What you are not counting in is implied consent by their (the athletes and their parents) presence at the event. Why should it be ANY bystander's concern what the kids are wearing?

Friends can't email other friends crappy point-n-shoot action shots done under poor lighting conditions using an uber-slow, fixed-focus 5x digital zoom 28mm lens (while using the built-in flash from 150 feet away of course), without running you and your $10,000 canikon lens out of business? Seriously?

You should go to Best Buy or somewhere; P&S cameras have come a long way in the past decade.

 

[wch]

That is a slightly asinine comment. What you are not counting in is implied consent by their (the athletes and their parents) presence at the event. Why should it be ANY bystander's concern what the kids are wearing?


You should go to Best Buy or somewhere; P&S cameras have come a long way in the past decade.

Photographs in schools can be taken by anyone, if the parents do not want their child's picture taken they must fill out the form that comes with the paperwork issued by the school each year ( I actually had to look that one up)

Today's dslr's are affordable to most people, and very user friendly, anyone that doesn't mind pushing buttons and flippin switches can take some right decent photos

 

[JimD_K10D]

Three things:

1. In an effort to consolidate account names on various forums to a single user name, this is my new account (formerly IntruderAlert)

2. I let emotions get the best of me in this thread and let things get to far so I would like to apologize to Frank and the other posters in this thread for this.

3. Frank, I checked out some of your sports shots and they are truely excellent. You have nothing to worry about from amateurs.

 

[FMarquart]

Three things:

1. In an effort to consolidate account names on various forums to a single user name, this is my new account (formerly IntruderAlert)

2. I let emotions get the best of me in this thread and let things get to far so I would like to apologize to Frank and the other posters in this thread for this.

3. Frank, I checked out some of your sports shots and they are truely excellent. You have nothing to worry about from amateurs.

Thank you JimD, I appreciate the kind words... I wasn't worried about the type (quality) of photos he was producing (he has a long way to go, and he will come along) But parents sometimes don't care how bad or good the photo looks they just want a shot of their kid, and if its 'free' they are even happier, that's how it hurts us...That's all I was trying to put out there...Maybe one day we will meet on the sidelines and if you need help I will be there, just ask...!

Frank