America's love of gas guzzlers

[Kyle]

Spent time over the last couple days researching electric vehicles.

found only a couple that had a useful range, more than 120 miles, and looked over charging station availability.

takeaway for me was... still impractical.

The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

I'll stick with my F150.

You can keep them.

 

[This_person]

Lead acid batterys are virtually 100% recycled for decades now,
In the last few years most modern battery's are being recycled except for today's battery cells used in electric cars, trucks but soon they will learn how to recycle them also.
The big killer with any combustion is you just can't make it more efficient than 38% + - very little, that's as good as it gets. It doesn't matter if it super charged, turbo, diesel, gas, ethanol, propane, CNG or whatever.
Modern electric cars are 68 to 72% efficient.
And the question about burning coal, you know that the 3 coal burners in Maryland run as efficient as clean coal can run with today's technology, the scrubbers that Mirant installed 5 or 6 years ago do a amazing job cleaning the air. Nothing comes out of the old smokestacks any longer, just steam more or less from the scrubber stacks.

Maybe we're seeing "efficiency" differently.

The best coal plants are almost 33% efficient, just like nukes. (The heat rates listed at the link for 2005 through 2015 are all "the amount of heat required to generate one kWh of electricity", which is about 3412 Btu. The best year average coal plant was almost 10,350. 3412 Btu for 10,350 is 32.97% efficient).

So, that means (if you're estimate of up to 72% efficient for electric cars) that from coal to road-motion, the best you can expect is about 23.7% of the energy in the coal making your car move.

Now, certainly there are some pretty huge differences in the energy efficiency of gasoline engines. If we try to do an apples-to-apples comparison, the same chart shows the worst year for petroleum electric plants was 11,000. 3412 gotten from 11,000 is 31%. That's more than 7% more efficient than the net efficiency of the coal-to-electricity car.

A good, unbiased article on recycling batteries is here.

 

[black dog]

I should have used " clean" with the coal power plants, and we are getting off the rails here.
I stated above that recycling battery's, lead acid and most other battery's except the new generation are near 100% recycled.
Exide has recycling plants all over the country. I have one 25 miles from me in Muncie, IN. It runs three shifts a day.
The facts are simple, electric is here and it's gonna stay here and soon enough it will become the new normal.
Electric motors are more efficient with fuel, and if built with quantity parts have virtually no maintenance and will run easily for decades. All the things a combustion engine can't do.

I've seen hundreds if not thousands of electric motors in my 20+ years with Otis Elevator that were installed in the late 1800's that have been running 5 or 6 days a week since being installed with nothing more than a biannual greaseing or oil change.

And I have said earlier, I'm a happy diesel burner. But like we were told when I was a kid, computers are coming.
Electric cars are coming.

 

[black dog]

Spent time over the last couple days researching electric vehicles.

found only a couple that had a useful range, more than 120 miles, and looked over charging station availability.

takeaway for me was... still impractical.

The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

I'll stick with my F150.

You can keep them.

Most folks who commute don't drive anywhere near 120 miles a day round trip.
In backwards Indiana we have Companys and factory's that already have installed charging stations in the parking lots for employees to use while working.
How often does one rent a gasoline golf cart to play golf ?

 

[This_person]

I should have used " clean" with the coal power plants, and we are getting off the rails here.

As I say, we were probably using the word "efficiency" differently. It sounds like you're using it to suggest "amount of CO[SUB]2[/SUB] generated per mile driven", which is a very reasonable argument to make since the claim is that carbon is the problem (though there is no proof of that).

I can't speak to that. I know that if we just turn water into hydrogen and oxygen and burn that, there's no carbon dioxide generated. If every car had a small nuclear plant, there's be no carbon generated. My question wasn't really about efficiency (that was a side discussion). My question was why we "should" be using electric cars.

Electric motors are more efficient with fuel, and if built with quantity parts have virtually no maintenance and will run easily for decades. All the things a combustion engine can't do.

I've seen hundreds if not thousands of electric motors in my 20+ years with Otis Elevator that were installed in the late 1800's that have been running 5 or 6 days a week since being installed with nothing more than a biannual greaseing or oil change.

And I have said earlier, I'm a happy diesel burner. But like we were told when I was a kid, computers are coming.
Electric cars are coming.

I believe they're coming. I don't dispute it. I just have no idea why.

 

[This_person]

Most folks who commute don't drive anywhere near 120 miles a day round trip.
In backwards Indiana we have Companys and factory's that already have installed charging stations in the parking lots for employees to use while working.
How often does one rent a gasoline golf cart to play golf ?

And, battery technology is getting better and better. You can thank the submarine community for that - large-scale batteries are needed for exceptionally-quiet running. The Australian Collins class, and the proposed replacement for that class, are huge drivers in better battery technology.

But, gasoline has the ability to sit in your car the whole time you're at the airport for a two-week vacation, without needing refilled, and start-up and run when you get back. If you have a full tank (I have a 36 gallon tank), you could drive for hundreds of miles, fill up, and continue for hundreds more. It provides flexibility, power, and longevity that electric cars just never will.

Imagine a farmer plowing, and needing to stop every few hours for several hours. Or, to have multiple batteries that are somehow replaceable in an easy way (what would it take, four batteries per tractor to charge and allow for the continuous operations required when bringing in the crops?). Or, semis - what kind of heat would be generated to pull a 53' trailer full of batteries?

If we all drove smart cars in NYC to get to/from work, electric cars could be a good option. To have the freedom of flexibility that we do now, electric will never be a viable option.

That's where my question, why "should" we be going to electric comes from.

 

[black dog]

I would tend to believe it has to be a safer alternative to use electric over hydrogen or nuke. Just think about that mess with a highway pileup.
I'm a pro nuke guy, but I'm not sure about everyone driving one around.
There is a GE turbine overhaul plant in Indianapolis that has a small museum in it. It has quite a few turbine cars that they build in the last 40 years. It's neat to see a Chevette with a little turbine under the hood.

 

[black dog]

And, battery technology is getting better and better. You can thank the submarine community for that - large-scale batteries are needed for exceptionally-quiet running. The Australian Collins class, and the proposed replacement for that class, are huge drivers in better battery technology.

But, gasoline has the ability to sit in your car the whole time you're at the airport for a two-week vacation, without needing refilled, and start-up and run when you get back. If you have a full tank (I have a 36 gallon tank), you could drive for hundreds of miles, fill up, and continue for hundreds more. It provides flexibility, power, and longevity that electric cars just never will.

Imagine a farmer plowing, and needing to stop every few hours for several hours. Or, to have multiple batteries that are somehow replaceable in an easy way (what would it take, four batteries per tractor to charge and allow for the continuous operations required when bringing in the crops?). Or, semis - what kind of heat would be generated to pull a 53' trailer full of batteries?



If we all drove smart cars in NYC to get to/from work, electric cars could be a good option. To have the freedom of flexibility that we do now, electric will never be a viable option.

That's where my question, why "should" we be going to electric comes from.

Yea I understand what you are saying and I have said from the start of this thread the words " commuting " and it doesn't work for everyone.
I've stated I drive a diesel F350 it has a 40 gallon tank and a auxillary in the bed that holds 90 gallons. And my commute is about 30 yards.
But certainly not everyone drives like you or me.
How many commute from Waldorf / Brandywine to inside the beltway? How many stay at home folks that have a car drive less than say 200 miles per week?

To answer your question on why should we?
For starters operating a electric car runs about 30 to 40% of what combustion costs.

 

[GURPS]

For starters operating a electric car runs about 30 to 40% of what combustion costs.

I get that ... but the premium you pay for such a car is not cost effective

 

[Larry Gude]

The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

I'll stick with my F150.

You can keep them.

That wasn't the point. Sam was saying that, even among the premium ones he's been in, they felt like junk, toys, not solid. I've been in several Tesla's and they are damn nice.

If you assume 200,000 miles on the F150 at, what, 18 mpg, and that's being generous, and assuming no major repairs or battery replacement on the Tesla, and that's not unrealistic and soon will be expected, assume 11,000 gallons for the truck at $2.75, that's over $30k. Throw in oil changes at $50 per, 40 over it's life, that's another $2k or so. The gap is closing.

Assume $.10 kw/h or somewhere between $.03 and .07 per mile to charge the Tesla, that's about $6,000-$14,000.

So, call it half. And that assumes no home solar panels. Or public arrays.

 

[black dog]

I get that ... but the premium you pay for such a car is not cost effective

.Like larry stated above, plus electric became popular when fuel went well above 4 bucks a few years ago. Let fuel hit 4 to 5 bucks a gallon and see the cost break over change rapidly again on how fast consumers buy electric.
There is now over 100,000 on the road now and growing.

 

[huntr1]

Most folks who commute don't drive anywhere near 120 miles a day round trip.

My current daily commute is 156 miles +/-. Home to Silver Spring 55 miles. Silver Spring to home 55 miles. Home to GMHS to pick up my son from sports practice back to home 46 miles.
My commuter car '12 Focus (30MPG) rolled over 100K miles this morning on the way to work, my "haul the family and our stuff" '97 Suburban (15 MPG) has 180K, kids' car '01 Saturn (28 MPG) 190K, wife's "haul the family and a little stuff" '06 Pilot (18 MPG) 205K.
Find me an electric car that costs <20K and holds 6 adults COMFORTABLY with stuff, and can pull a 6K lb. trailer and I will trade out a vehicle.

 

[black dog]

My current daily commute is 156 miles +/-. Home to Silver Spring 55 miles. Silver Spring to home 55 miles. Home to GMHS to pick up my son from sports practice back to home 46 miles.
My commuter car '12 Focus (30MPG) rolled over 100K miles this morning on the way to work, my "haul the family and our stuff" '97 Suburban (15 MPG) has 180K, kids' car '01 Saturn (28 MPG) 190K, wife's "haul the family and a little stuff" '06 Pilot (18 MPG) 205K.
Find me an electric car that costs <20K and holds 6 adults COMFORTABLY with stuff, and can pull a 6K lb. trailer and I will trade out a vehicle.

And in the next few years you will be replacing a few of those.
Some of you all have missed the point that I have stated many times in this thread that for the average commuter and the average stay at home parent a electric car would work extremely well, and last longer for far less operating cost per mile.
At this time with it replace a Suburban or a PU for hauling or towing? Nope... But eventually it will in some way or another.
With the base price of a new Suburban at just under 50 grand, alternative's will happen, it's just a matter of time.
So many here think I'm pro electric are funny, you keep telling me what electrics can't do. If you think electric will not keep advancing I will say this. Just look at the changes in rechargable tools for the tradesman and homeowner in the last twenty years.
I will say this again, I am a HUGE DIESEL BURNER my normal ride is a 2000 F 350 crew cab 8' bed 7.3 diesel dually.
My Hooptie is a 1994 GS 300 Lexus that still gets 27 mpg on the HW. It has 200,000 on the clock.
But when it croaks, I will definitely look into a electric car to replace it. Not a hybrid, full electric.
There's over 100,000 of them on the road right now, America needs to understand the reality of that's where we are headed.
Like it or not, it's here to stay.
I had a Math teacher in 1972 ( 8th grade ) tell us that if all of us didn't learn something to do with computers, that we would be left behind within our working lifetime.
Cheers to you Joe Maricini, through that long hair and that VW bus you drove you could see the future.

 

[GURPS]

If you assume 200,000 miles on the F150 at ....

.Like larry stated above ...

My 1995 Saturn SC2 cost me $ 2000 10 years ago .... gets 27 to 35 MPG Driving to Hollywood MD
My 2005 Chrysler Town and Country Walter P Chrysler Signature Touring Ed. cost me $ 2500 last yr, gets 21/22 Driving to Hollywood and has ALL the Creature comforts


I'm sorry your argument doesn't hold water [with me] when I can purchase a Honda Insight or a Prius for $ 2k maybe I'll step up or better yet a Tesla
[I'll be dead before a used Tesla is in my price range]

last I heard battery pack replacement on an out of warranty Prius was something like 5k - you throw away the car at that point and buy another on.

 

[GURPS]

.... for the average commuter and the average stay at home parent a electric car would work extremely well ....

as long as you are young and in good health

 

[Larry Gude]

My 1995 Saturn SC2 cost me $ 2000 10 years ago .... gets 27 to 35 MPG Driving to Hollywood MD
My 2005 Chrysler Town and Country Walter P Chrysler Signature Touring Ed. cost me $ 2500 last yr, gets 21/22 Driving to Hollywood and has ALL the Creature comforts


I'm sorry your argument doesn't hold water [with me] when I can purchase a Honda Insight or a Prius for $ 2k maybe I'll step up or better yet a Tesla
[I'll be dead before a used Tesla is in my price range]

last I heard battery pack replacement on an out of warranty Prius was something like 5k - you throw away the car at that point and buy another on.

For one thing I SPECIFICALLY said Tesla as Sam's comment was he'd seen no electric that impressed him as decent let alone quality.
For two, I didn't say it was THERE cost wise now. It's not. Which is why I said it's getting there and dog said it WILL get there.
Lastly, the better Tesla battery is NOW designed for well beyond 200k.

The best that can be said for a Prius is that it is one of the transitional steps necessary to get from good idea to good reality. In and of itself, it's a niche vehicle. The Tesla, hear, now, in the luxury sedan class, is an absolutely credible choice.

 

[Clem72]

The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

I'll stick with my F150.

You can keep them.

And can do zero to sixty in 2.4 seconds. And automatically park itself in or back out of your garage and come to you. And has a much higher safety rating than your F-150.

But it can't haul a sheet of plywood. Sounds like maybe you are not their target audience (and you seem to believe that a vehicle that might be better for 80% of travel and people is crap because it's not better for 100%).

 

[Clem72]

If we all drove smart cars in NYC to get to/from work, electric cars could be a good option. To have the freedom of flexibility that we do now, electric will never be a viable option.

Your argument is that electric will never be a good option, because it's not the best option for every circumstance? I am quite sure I am wasting my breath as I don't believe I have ever seen you change your opinion on this forum. About anything. But if there is a market for a mini-van (which I have never owned), or a truck (which I have never owned for personal use), or a Jeep Wrangler (who the feck believes this is a good vehicle for regular daily commutes through town?), or even luxury ($100k+) commuter vehicles, then there is plenty of room for several classes of electric vehicles.

 

[Larry Gude]

And can do zero to sixty in 2.4 seconds. And automatically park itself in or back out of your garage and come to you. And has a much higher safety rating than your F-150.

But it can't haul a sheet of plywood. Sounds like maybe you are not their target audience (and you seem to believe that a vehicle that might be better for 80% of travel and people is crap because it's not better for 100%).

Electric is going to massively outperform diesel pick ups...once the politics gets sorted out. Pick ups are the primary profit stream for auto makers and, as such, regulatory hurdles are in place to hold back electrics. You ever wonder why Toyota doesn't have a diesel dually? They do. It's a fantastic truck. They just can't sell it in the US. Same, for now, for electric. It will be NO contest. Power, torque, hell, a truck is perfect for extra weight for bigger batts to provide MORE power.

 

[Clem72]

Find me an electric car that costs <20K and holds 6 adults COMFORTABLY with stuff, and can pull a 6K lb. trailer and I will trade out a vehicle.

Why? Find me a supermodel that wants to have sex with me and I will trade out my wife. Both are equally likely, and equally absurd.