Are Roman Catholics Our Brothers in Christ?

[StoneThrower]

I just watched an interesting debate called:

Are Roman Catholics Our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Between DR. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries a Reformed Baptist, and Douglas Wilson
a Presbyterian. James took the negative view.

The debate was centered on Does Trinitarian Baptism allow them to be referred to as a Christian?

Both made it clear that they disaproved of the churches wayward doctrine, but Wilson argued that he as an evangelical could still consider them Christians in spite of them believing in a differnt gospel. And considered them part of the covenant family.

James brought up that Mormons have a Trinitarian Baptism as well but Wilson rejected them as being in the camp (as does White), because of having a differnt Jesus and God the father.

I found it really odd that Baptism was the center of the debate Wilson is in the Federalist Vision camp if anyone is interested it can be purchased in various formats at
Alpha and Omega Ministries


Details:
A Debate on the Federal Vision (Auburn Avenue Controversy)

Does Trinitarian baptism join you to the New Covenant? Does it join you to Christ? Does it make you a brother or sister in Christ with everyone else who has likewise been baptized, even if you hold to a false gospel? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ by baptism, but not by confession of faith? These are the issues debated by Douglas Wilson of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho and James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. (2 Hours 48 Minutes)
Formats available are DVD, CD, MP3.

 

[b23hqb]

I go with what the Bibles says about salvation, and have confidence that God will sort us all out, separating the fruit from the chaff.

My personal opinion - no, we are not all the same, baptized/christened/sprinkled/whatever. If one is not saved, doesn't matter how wet you got.

I was waiting for a post like this to show up about now/again.

Can one download the discussion?

 

[itsbob]

I just watched an interesting debate called:

Are Roman Catholics Our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Between DR. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries a Reformed Baptist, and Douglas Wilson
a Presbyterian. James took the negative view.

The debate was centered on Does Trinitarian Baptism allow them to be referred to as a Christian?

Both made it clear that they disaproved of the churches wayward doctrine, but Wilson argued that he as an evangelical could still consider them Christians in spite of them believing in a differnt gospel. And considered them part of the covenant family.

James brought up that Mormons have a Trinitarian Baptism as well but Wilson rejected them as being in the camp (as does White), because of having a differnt Jesus and God the father.

I found it really odd that Baptism was the center of the debate Wilson is in the Federalist Vision camp if anyone is interested it can be purchased in various formats at
Alpha and Omega Ministries


Details:
A Debate on the Federal Vision (Auburn Avenue Controversy)

Does Trinitarian baptism join you to the New Covenant? Does it join you to Christ? Does it make you a brother or sister in Christ with everyone else who has likewise been baptized, even if you hold to a false gospel? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ by baptism, but not by confession of faith? These are the issues debated by Douglas Wilson of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho and James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. (2 Hours 48 Minutes)
Formats available are DVD, CD, MP3.

Idiots..
AND Bigots..

Will their bigotry allow them to VOTE for a Mormon??

 

[b23hqb]

Idiots..
AND Bigots..

Will their bigotry allow them to VOTE for a Mormon??

I'm sure they will, if they can stomach a vote for the far lesser of two evils.

 

[ItalianScallion]

If they're talking about water baptism, it has no effect on salvation. Sprinkling or immersion doesn't matter in that instance so I wonder why baptism was the focus unless they were speaking of baptism into Christ. There are 2 types of baptism spoken of in the Bible...

If they're talking about who to believe in, that makes a difference for everyone. There are people in ALL denominations who won't make it to Heaven. Being affiliated with a denomination doesn't guarantee one's salvation. Catholics, just like any other denomination, are a mixture of saved & lost people so, yes, many of them are saved.

I'll let John tell it:

12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life". (1 John 5)

 

[StoneThrower]

Idiots..
AND Bigots..

Actually, I going to vote for the Mormon as painful as it is it’s the lesser of two Evils.
Neither candidate is a Christian so it’s a wash there.
All candidates are pro abortion so it’s a wash there.
My concern is that voting for him will further prorogate the belief that Mormons are Christians. It’s a chance I will have to take and we will just need to educate our people that although the use the same words like atonement in their world it means something different. Also when they call themselves Christians they mean only Mormons are.
We actually have self professing Christians believing Mormons are Christians so we definitely need to educate the church that it’s a different Jesus and a different God as their god was a man that became god.

So to answer your question I think a lot of folks will be voting the same way.

 

[StoneThrower]

If they're talking about water baptism, it has no effect on salvation. Sprinkling or immersion doesn't matter in that instance so I wonder why baptism was the focus unless they were speaking of baptism into Christ. There are 2 types of baptism spoken of in the Bible...

If they're talking about who to believe in, that makes a difference for everyone. There are people in ALL denominations who won't make it to Heaven. Being affiliated with a denomination doesn't guarantee one's salvation. Catholics, just like any other denomination, are a mixture of saved & lost people so, yes, many of them are saved.

I'll let John tell it:

12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life". (1 John 5)

IS I think if you read the link Auburn Avenue Controversy that would add some clarity. It was interesting but I need to read up on this myself as a lot of folks are naming heresies in the Federalist Vision.

Your correct though baptism is purely symbolic, and we do it to be obi dent, not having someone else decide to do it for us.

 

[b23hqb]

Idiots..
AND Bigots..

Actually, I going to vote for the Mormon as painful as it is it’s the lesser of two Evils.
Neither candidate is a Christian so it’s a wash there.
All candidates are pro abortion so it’s a wash there.
My concern is that voting for him will further prorogate the belief that Mormons are Christians. It’s a chance I will have to take and we will just need to educate our people that although the use the same words like atonement in their world it means something different. Also when they call themselves Christians they mean only Mormons are.
We actually have self professing Christians believing Mormons are Christians so we definitely need to educate the church that it’s a different Jesus and a different God as their god was a man that became god.

So to answer your question I think a lot of folks will be voting the same way.

It is up to us to vote the far lesser of two evils in and the evil one out. It is also up to believers in Jesus only as our Saviour to promote and further that message.

If you aren't saved, baptism gets one nothing other than all wet.

 

[StoneThrower]

I just watched an interesting debate called:

Are Roman Catholics Our Brothers and Sisters in Christ? Between DR. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries a Reformed Baptist, and Douglas Wilson
a Presbyterian. James took the negative view.

The debate was centered on Does Trinitarian Baptism allow them to be referred to as a Christian?

Both made it clear that they disaproved of the churches wayward doctrine, but Wilson argued that he as an evangelical could still consider them Christians in spite of them believing in a differnt gospel. And considered them part of the covenant family.

James brought up that Mormons have a Trinitarian Baptism as well but Wilson rejected them as being in the camp (as does White), because of having a differnt Jesus and God the father.

I found it really odd that Baptism was the center of the debate Wilson is in the Federalist Vision camp if anyone is interested it can be purchased in various formats at
Alpha and Omega Ministries


Details:
A Debate on the Federal Vision (Auburn Avenue Controversy)

Does Trinitarian baptism join you to the New Covenant? Does it join you to Christ? Does it make you a brother or sister in Christ with everyone else who has likewise been baptized, even if you hold to a false gospel? Are Roman Catholics our brothers and sisters in Christ by baptism, but not by confession of faith? These are the issues debated by Douglas Wilson of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho and James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. (2 Hours 48 Minutes)
Formats available are DVD, CD, MP3.

Here is another viewers take on the debate.
Reformed Not Enough

 

[StoneThrower]

If they're talking about water baptism, it has no effect on salvation. Sprinkling or immersion doesn't matter in that instance so I wonder why baptism was the focus unless they were speaking of baptism into Christ. There are 2 types of baptism spoken of in the Bible...

If they're talking about who to believe in, that makes a difference for everyone. There are people in ALL denominations who won't make it to Heaven. Being affiliated with a denomination doesn't guarantee one's salvation. Catholics, just like any other denomination, are a mixture of saved & lost people so, yes, many of them are saved.

I'll let John tell it:

12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life". (1 John 5)

Doug Wilson tried comparing baptism to marriage that when a man gets married, even if he is unfaithful he is still married, so even though Rome and her doctrine that is apostate she is still part of the church because of the baptism in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost.

 

[StoneThrower]

I go with what the Bibles says about salvation, and have confidence that God will sort us all out, separating the fruit from the chaff.

My personal opinion - no, we are not all the same, baptized/christened/sprinkled/whatever. If one is not saved, doesn't matter how wet you got.

I was waiting for a post like this to show up about now/again.

Can one download the discussion?

Its funny, well not reall its sad, but if you ask most Catholics if they are born again they will say no, or that they dont know what that means. Many have not heard the gospel correctly, or dont know what they need to do in response to it.

 

[b23hqb]

Its funny, well not reall its sad, but if you ask most Catholics if they are born again they will say no, or that they dont know what that means. Many have not heard the gospel correctly, or dont know what they need to do in response to it.

Most catholics just don't know about being born again, or being saved. They just rely on what their priests pound into them from their age of accountability.

I really do wonder if most catholics actually read a Bible at all, outside of what their liturgy requirews them to memorize, or at least be able to recall.

They are placing their eternity on dead people, not on the living God.

Sad, but they are what they are.

Pray for them, that their conscience can realize their fruitless hope in sacraments, works, prayers to the dead, will not gain them anything other than damnation.

Way too many good people will burn in hell, while heaven will be filled with saved sinners.

 

[ItalianScallion]

Doug Wilson tried comparing baptism to marriage that when a man gets married, even if he is unfaithful he is still married, so even though Rome and her doctrine that is apostate she is still part of the church because of the baptism in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost.

I've read it but he's confused. He said:

"...This man participated in the objective covenantal ceremony of the marriage, which would be the equivalent of someone being baptized. However, when he was caught in adultery he claimed he was never married because he had never been married in his heart. Therefore, he would represent someone who had been baptized (objective reality) but who had never "accepted Jesus in his heart" (subjective experience). By virtue of his vows, the adulterer is to be treated as married, regardless of his subjective experience or lack thereof. And, by virtue of their baptism, people are to be treated as Christians regardless of their subjective experience or lack thereof..."

The act of baptism in NOT binding like the marriage ceremony is. The marriage ceremony is legally binding whether they meant it or not. Then there's the consumation act...

Next, anyone can claim to be saved but not be.

Finally, people shouldn't be treated as Christians just because they were baptized. If the RCC or any other church believes that, they are deceived...

So, again I say: Yes many (not all) Roman Catholics are our brothers & sisters in Christ.

 

[onel0126]

Its funny, well not reall its sad, but if you ask most Catholics if they are born again they will say no, or that they dont know what that means. Many have not heard the gospel correctly, or dont know what they need to do in response to it.

You are asking the wrong Catholics then. Still lying too I see. Is lying condoned in the great Church of the Ranch Club?

 

[b23hqb]

You are asking the wrong Catholics then. Still lying too I see. Is lying condoned in the great Church of the Ranch Club?

Ok. What is your stance, and biblical reference, concerning 'born again"?

Simple question. Biblical reference required.

 

[cheezgrits]

Us Indians think you are all our brothers and sisters...

 

[onel0126]

Ok. What is your stance, and biblical reference, concerning 'born again"?

Simple question. Biblical reference required.

I agree with what is posted below.....

Regeneration in John 3

These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17).

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22).

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this:

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61).

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1).

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]).

Augustine also taught, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[StoneThrower]

You are asking the wrong Catholics then. Still lying too I see. Is lying condoned in the great Church of the Ranch Club?

Lying, I am expressing my personal expirence. So how is that lying?

As to the church, my ideas do not express those of the church they are my own. I am a fundy and they are evangelical. I am reformed and I would not consider them that.

Notice I didnt express my personal views as to whether they are or not, IS did, I dont feel I need to.

The topic is does baptism give Roman Catholics an in to the camp, is that enough for them to be considered Christian.

Lastly, NO lying is not condoned.

 

[b23hqb]

onel0126 and Radiant1 sure like to fling the term 'lying' around when anything they do not believe is tossed at them.

Baptism does not save. Never has. Never will. If one does not believe in, and confess thereof, of the work of Jesus on the cross, His burial, and His resurrection, well then, getting baptized just gets one all wet.

And no closer to heaven than they were beforehand.

Baptism happens after an inward conversion. If one professes the Lord, and then is taken out (killed/dies) before baptism, that person is still saved.

No matter what.

 

[Radiant1]

onel0126 and Radiant1 sure like to fling the term 'lying' around when anything they do not believe is tossed at them.

It had nothing to do with what you or I believed. I called you out as a liar when you quoted with quotation marks something that a site supposedly said, when it never did. All it took was a simple read of the site to verify it. That makes you a liar and I make no apologies for calling you one. Would you prefer that I said you spoke an untruth? I can make it sound better for you if it wounds your pride or something.

The topic is does baptism give Roman Catholics an in to the camp, is that enough for them to be considered Christian.

First, I find it amusing that Protestants are attempting to determine who is "in the camp" or not. Second, I could give two shiats less if you think Catholics are "in" or not because what persons such as yourself think has no bearing on my salvation. Third, If you don't think I'm your sister in Christ, well, I'm perfectly fine with that because I don't like to be associated with people like you anyway.