Are Roman Catholics Our Brothers in Christ?

[Zguy28]

You shouldn't speak as if you have exclusive access to revealed truth because you don't.

Hey, you can go get a bible at Walmart and access revealed truth also.

But really there is no need I suppose since you apparently believe you have the truth already without a bible.

 

[MMDad]

It seems really odd that some of you want to be so exclusionary. Those of you who say Catholics, Mormons, and others who don't have the exact same beliefs as you are doing yourselves a great disservice.

Christianity is the largest religious group in the world. If you now say that Catholics are not Christians, that relegates Christianity to the fourth largest group, behind Islam, Hinduism, and Catholicism.

If we take that further and exclude the rest of the non-protestant denominations you disagree with, it puts Christianity behind folk religions and just ahead of Shintoism.

It appears that there are only two real options here:

1. The people you think got it right are really lousy at spreading the word and God has not helped your version of Christianity grow or

2. Christianity is actually a strong and growing faith in spite of those who want it to be exclusionary and statistically irrelevant.

 

[Zguy28]

It seems really odd that some of you want to be so exclusionary. Those of you who say Catholics, Mormons, and others who don't have the exact same beliefs as you are doing yourselves a great disservice.

Christianity is the largest religious group in the world. If you now say that Catholics are not Christians, that relegates Christianity to the fourth largest group, behind Islam, Hinduism, and Catholicism.

If we take that further and exclude the rest of the non-protestant denominations you disagree with, it puts Christianity behind folk religions and just ahead of Shintoism.

It appears that there are only two real options here:

1. The people you think got it right are really lousy at spreading the word and God has not helped your version of Christianity grow or

2. Christianity is actually a strong and growing faith in spite of those who want it to be exclusionary and statistically irrelevant.

Why is it so odd? Have you not heard of the Reformation and why it occurred?

When I hear the calls today for ecumenism between Protestants and Catholics, it is one of my greatest wishes for a reunification under one Gospel. But that will not happen since the two differ on the greatest point of Christian doctrine which is the Gospel itself. This is a matter that is paramount and permanently linked to what salvation is about.

So, when you think it odd, or not a big deal, you are not taking things seriously, and it is a very serious matter considering the biblical consequences of getting it wrong.

 

[thatguy]

Wirelessly posted

You shouldn't speak as if you have exclusive access to revealed truth because you don't.

Hey, you can go get a bible at Walmart and access revealed truth also.

But really there is no need I suppose since you apparently believe you have the truth already without a bible.

If it were as easy as reading the bible you wouldn't be arguing about wether or not other Christians are Christians. There wouldn't be any denominations, and no splinter religions. Everyone would agree. Well they don't.

You think your splinter of Christianity is THE one, so do a lot of other people.

 

[ItalianScallion]

You shouldn't speak as if you have exclusive access to revealed truth because you don't. No more than any other religion. What is really funny is that you seem to hold the most vitrol and hate for other Christians who you deem to be unworthy. All base on their use of dogma. Problem is you and all the other "bible" Christians are operating with your own dogma. It was handed down from Calvin and Luther. They decided your dogma long ago. Your dogma even uses a bible that had books eliminated books from the canon. You can argue that the Catholic Church was wrong at the time, but that's just more dogma.

If ignorance was money you'd be a zillionaire. Every word you are saying against God and the Bible is burying you deeper and deeper. Seriously, do some better research and then come back and try again. You will be sorely upset when you find out the truth at the end of your life...

If it were as easy as reading the bible you wouldn't be arguing about wether or not other Christians are Christians. There wouldn't be any denominations, and no splinter religions. Everyone would agree. Well they don't.

Totally unrelated thought there TG. That's like saying: if my toilet held more water, my car wouldn't break down as much.

The Bible is the Words of God directly to us. Anyone can read any book and come away with different opinions of what they read BUT that doesn't make the book incorrect. That reading problem is why we have denominations. People aren't reading the Book correctly or they are listening to someone who hasn't read it correctly either...

 

[Zguy28]

Wirelessly posted



If it were as easy as reading the bible you wouldn't be arguing about wether or not other Christians are Christians. There wouldn't be any denominations, and no splinter religions. Everyone would agree. Well they don't.

Christians are people too. We disagree over lots of things, but most are secondary doctrines and matters.

The Reformation was a split because of Primary doctrines. Its pretty important actually.

You think your splinter of Christianity is THE one, so do a lot of other people.

Well good for them.

 

[thatguy]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted



If it were as easy as reading the bible you wouldn't be arguing about wether or not other Christians are Christians. There wouldn't be any denominations, and no splinter religions. Everyone would agree. Well they don't.

Christians are people too. We disagree over lots of things, but most are secondary doctrines and matters.

The Reformation was a split because of Primary doctrines. Its pretty important actually.

You think your splinter of Christianity is THE one, so do a lot of other people.

Well good for them.

So says the dogma they teach in your denomination.

 

[libby]

Why is it so odd? Have you not heard of the Reformation and why it occurred?

When I hear the calls today for ecumenism between Protestants and Catholics, it is one of my greatest wishes for a reunification under one Gospel. But that will not happen since the two differ on the greatest point of Christian doctrine which is the Gospel itself. This is a matter that is paramount and permanently linked to what salvation is about.

So, when you think it odd, or not a big deal, you are not taking things seriously, and it is a very serious matter considering the biblical consequences of getting it wrong.

Y'know, I've never thought of this before, but Protestants who believe that there was nothing good and right left in the Catholic Church, and therefore "reformed" it, must believe in the Total Apostacy as the Latter Day Saints do.
Joseph Smith threw out everything in except the Bible, and so have Protestants.
What-is-now-called the Catholic Church was, indeed, the only Christian denomination for centuries. Jesus established it and protected it, and while we can all agree that there were abuses, there was not a total apostacy of doctrine. If there were, then Jesus was a liar or a loon for saying that the gates of hell would not prevail.

 

[Zguy28]

Y'know, I've never thought of this before, but Protestants who believe that there was nothing good and right left in the Catholic Church, and therefore "reformed" it, must believe in the Total Apostacy as the Latter Day Saints do.
Joseph Smith threw out everything in except the Bible, and so have Protestants.
What-is-now-called the Catholic Church was, indeed, the only Christian denomination for centuries. Jesus established it and protected it, and while we can all agree that there were abuses, there was not a total apostacy of doctrine. If there were, then Jesus was a liar or a loon for saying that the gates of hell would not prevail.

It's in the eye of the beholder dear Libby.

From my POV, the church was and always will be the church of Jesus Christ. Not the Roman Catholic Church, not the Southern Baptist Church, not the Anglican or Orthodox, just the church militant and church triumphant. The gates of Hell did not prevail against Christ's church, it still exists today scattered amongst the nations. From my POV, the church survived through the Reformers, not Rome, while one branch (Rome) fell into serious error.

 

[Radiant1]

It's in the eye of the beholder dear Libby.

From my POV, the church was and always will be the church of Jesus Christ. Not the Roman Catholic Church, not the Southern Baptist Church, not the Anglican or Orthodox, just the church militant and church triumphant. The gates of Hell did not prevail against Christ's church, it still exists today scattered amongst the nations. From my POV, the church survived through the Reformers, not Rome, while one branch (Rome) fell into serious error.

Ok then, let's take a look at the church militant. Please show me an historical timeline of Protestant theology from the time of Christ to the Reformation, please and thank you.

 

[thatguy]

Wirelessly posted

It's in the eye of the beholder dear Libby.

From my POV, the church was and always will be the church of Jesus Christ. Not the Roman Catholic Church, not the Southern Baptist Church, not the Anglican or Orthodox, just the church militant and church triumphant. The gates of Hell did not prevail against Christ's church, it still exists today scattered amongst the nations. From my POV, the church survived through the Reformers, not Rome, while one branch (Rome) fell into serious error.

Ok then, let's take a look at the church militant. Please show me an historical timeline of Protestant theology from the time of Christ to the Reformation, please and thank you.

But but but but

 

[Zguy28]

Ok then, let's take a look at the church militant. Please show me an historical timeline of Protestant theology from the time of Christ to the Reformation, please and thank you.

Protestant Theology can be a pretty broad term. Are you talking about the five Solas and the Priesthood of Believers?

 

[Radiant1]

Protestant Theology can be a pretty broad term. Are you talking about the five Solas and the Priesthood of Believers?

Whatever you got Zguy, and I'm asking for historical documents outside of scripture because scripture, as you know well, can be interpreted differently to suit anyone's needs. You're going to need to show me historical writings from the time of Christ until the Reformation to establish an appropriate timeline.

It stands to reason that if Protestant theology existed from the beginning, then there wouldn't have been need for the protest.

 

[libby]

Whatever you got Zguy, and I'm asking for historical documents outside of scripture because scripture, as you know well, can be interpreted differently to suit anyone's needs. You're going to need to show me historical writings from the time of Christ until the Reformation to establish an appropriate timeline.

It stands to reason that if Protestant theology existed from the beginning, then there wouldn't have been need for the protest.

I've asked SM and IS for this same documentation. I mean, seriously, if the RCC was in such error as early as the 3rd century, surely there were some good Bible only scholars who were writing to the faithful so that they would not be duped by Rome. Lots of writings can be found that correct heresies at any given time, so I would think there would be plenty indicting Rome.

 

[twinoaks207]

Please elaborate judgmental one. I'm interested to hear your reasoning behind this.
Is it?

Perhaps a better word could have been used as "intolerance" can be defined as lacking respect, which is not what I mean. What I was attempting to convey is that all religions believe the others are wrong. Yes, even pluralistic ones.

For example, Islam believes it is the only way. Ba'Hai believes Islam is one of many ways. Even though Ba'hai believes Islam is true in a sense, it really doesn't because one of the tenets of Islam is that it is right and all others are wrong. So, what Ba'Hai actually does is say Islam is wrong.

Exclusivism in religion is unavoidable. That doesn't mean we need to disrespect each other, clearly for Christians the Golden Rule applies. However, in today's culture feelings have taken precedence over truth and to tell somebody they are wrong, even in a respectful manner, has become equivalent to a grievous offense as evidenced by some replies on this very forum.

You say that Christians cannot tolerate other religions and I get called the judgmental one?

:walkingawayshakingmyhead:

 

[Zguy28]

You say that Christians cannot tolerate other religions and I get called the judgmental one?

:walkingawayshakingmyhead:

Friend, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

 

[twinoaks207]

Friend, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.

There are none so blind...

 

[ItalianScallion]

I've asked SM and IS for this same documentation. I mean, seriously, if the RCC was in such error as early as the 3rd century, surely there were some good Bible only scholars who were writing to the faithful so that they would not be duped by Rome. Lots of writings can be found that correct heresies at any given time, so I would think there would be plenty indicting Rome.

This is the problem that arises when you don't fully believe the Bible. It has all the truth you need but you insist that it isn't enough.

You want indictments against Rome? Read Romans and the rest of Pauls' writings. You might even want to read the Gospels too. Something about emperor worship under the Caesars...

 

[StoneThrower]

Yes, that's what I "latched onto". If you haven't noticed, I usually don't jump into conversations until I see something erroneously posted about myself, Catholicism, or in this case a Catholic saint. I do so in order to correct misunderstandings. Besides, we've been over this baptism thing and all other doctrines numerous times before, and I'm not overly fond of repeatedly slinging crap like monkeys if you know what I mean; y'all are welcome to it. In addition, I think you guys going back and forth whether Catholics are your brothers/sisters in Christ or not does you a disservice in the eyes of any passive reader and reveals a great deal about your views, so by all means keep at it. You don't need me to debate you because ultimately you all are doing my work for me.

Now, go write your sermon and peace be with you, brother.

So you as a Roman Catholic you see no value in looking at the only possible thread remaining that may still allow you to still be referred to as a Christian? Other than getting offended, your not concerned why there is even a need to ask the question?

From your prior post you don't see to get that what you are apart of, is not the one true church and has very little in common from the apostolic catholic Church from which its wondered away from.

"But what does it mean now to say that the church is apostolic, since the apostles are long-gone? Edmund Clowney put it succinctly: “To compromise the authority of Scripture is to destroy the apostolic foundation of the church."

"A distorted church often coincides with a distorted gospel." Mark Dever


Of the marks (qualities of a church) how many do you still retain?

1. Biblical Theology (missing)
2. The center of Right Teaching the Gospel (miss, a different Gospel)
3. Right Administration of Ordinances (miss, by the way that includes church discipline)

Rather than take offense perhaps try to construct one, then the question has value. For those looking on, any church that claims to be the one true church avoid, cults do this, the church is comprised of believers sitting under all kinds of names. Its not the name that defines them, but if they have a right understanding of who Jesus Christ is, and a correct understanding of how to respond to His plan of salvation that determines if they are Christians or not.
There is a reason why Jesus said it is Finished and its referred to as the finished work of the cross. It doesn't require seven sacraments the price was paid!

 

[thatguy]

Wirelessly posted

I've asked SM and IS for this same documentation. I mean, seriously, if the RCC was in such error as early as the 3rd century, surely there were some good Bible only scholars who were writing to the faithful so that they would not be duped by Rome. Lots of writings can be found that correct heresies at any given time, so I would think there would be plenty indicting Rome.

This is the problem that arises when you don't fully believe the Bible. It has all the truth you need but you insist that it isn't enough.

You want indictments against Rome? Read Romans and the rest of Pauls' writings. You might even want to read the Gospels too. Something about emperor worship under the Caesars...

So for 1500 years the Catholic Church was the one true church, and yet somehow the denomination that splintered from it is more correct? Radiant andlibby are right. You don't have anything that shows the existence of your church or way of thought for 1500 years. It's all based on Catholicism.