As in the days of Noah.....

This_person

Well-Known Member
the story of genisis is very specific. in the beginning, on the first day..... etc.
It goes so far as to list all the begot'ing that was done and who desended from whom.otherwise the story would have been"god created homo-a, didn't like him so he created homo-b, too short, so he creeated homo-c, couldn't talk, so he created homo-d (all with mates BTW), then god created adam...."

it isn't. the story of genisis is very specific.
You really think the "specifics" of the creation of the universe and all life on earth could be summed up in a couple of paragraphs and be specific? And I'm the ignorant tard? :killingme
as for your ignorant claims about giraffe's and their necks. i just grew bored of your idiocy. you are either a tard, or you are being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse. either way, you have no logical argument.
You never disputed the logic of the argument until you couldn't answer the question.

Hey, it's your right to not think, just attack others. I just had higher hopes for you.
 

foodcritic

New Member
You really think the "specifics" of the creation of the universe and all life on earth could be summed up in a couple of paragraphs and be specific? And I'm the ignorant tard? :killingmeYou never disputed the logic of the argument until you couldn't answer the question.

Hey, it's your right to not think, just attack others. I just had higher hopes for you.

:buddies:
 

godsbutterfly

Free to Fly
I thought that at first too, but then I thought that that book has witchcraft and thusly would be blasphemy.

A little off-topic but - according to a Psychology Course I took "The Wizard of Oz" was supposed to be about the War (I think it was World War II). You should have heard how they laid all of that out. I can't remember all of the details now but it was interesting to say the least!
 

Xaquin44

New Member
A little off-topic but - according to a Psychology Course I took "The Wizard of Oz" was supposed to be about the War (I think it was World War II). You should have heard how they laid all of that out. I can't remember all of the details now but it was interesting to say the least!

hmmm that does sound kind of cool.

when was that movie made?
 

tommyjones

New Member
You really think the "specifics" of the creation of the universe and all life on earth could be summed up in a couple of paragraphs and be specific? And I'm the ignorant tard? :killingmeYou never disputed the logic of the argument until you couldn't answer the question.

Hey, it's your right to not think, just attack others. I just had higher hopes for you.

look, the book talks specifically to adam, eve and all of their decendants. YOU are the only person i have ever heard of who believes that god made other men. the rest of the christian world believes that the story of genisis is complete. (remember the whole incest thing from kain and able)

if god created all of these various versions of man, the story would have gone "god created homo-a, didn't like him so he created homo-b, too short, so he creeated homo-c, couldn't talk, so he created homo-d (all with mates BTW), then god created adam...."

otherwise adam and eve were the earliest of hominoids as they were more than 6000 years old.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
look, the book talks specifically to adam, eve and all of their decendants. YOU are the only person i have ever heard of who believes that god made other men. the rest of the christian world believes that the story of genisis is complete. (remember the whole incest thing from kain and able)
The book does talk specifically to Adam and Eve. But, what about the possibility that it is not the complete story? Certainly, it never mentions Cain and Abel's wives. It specifically says that a suitable mate could not be found for Adam, therefore God made Eve.... well, from where was the search before Eve? Think God was trying Adam out on goats and horses, and decided, "Hey, I made a female of everything else, why not humans?" That would make no sense.

No, the story is just of Adam and Eve in Gen 2, but that's not the full, 100% story. People read into it what they learned in VBS, not what's actually there.
if god created all of these various versions of man, the story would have gone "god created homo-a, didn't like him so he created homo-b, too short, so he creeated homo-c, couldn't talk, so he created homo-d (all with mates BTW), then god created adam...."

otherwise adam and eve were the earliest of hominoids as they were more than 6000 years old.
I disagree, for logical and common sense reasons. But, what if they were the earliest hominoids? Where does that 6000 year figure actually come from? If the word "assume" is anywhere in the explaination, it's automatically very, very, very suspect.
 

tommyjones

New Member
The book does talk specifically to Adam and Eve. But, what about the possibility that it is not the complete story? Certainly, it never mentions Cain and Abel's wives. It specifically says that a suitable mate could not be found for Adam, therefore God made Eve.... well, from where was the search before Eve? Think God was trying Adam out on goats and horses, and decided, "Hey, I made a female of everything else, why not humans?" That would make no sense.

No, the story is just of Adam and Eve in Gen 2, but that's not the full, 100% story. People read into it what they learned in VBS, not what's actually there.I disagree, for logical and common sense reasons. But, what if they were the earliest hominoids? Where does that 6000 year figure actually come from? If the word "assume" is anywhere in the explaination, it's automatically very, very, very suspect.

and there you go, you insert this 'maybe its not the whole story' BS so that you can us your book to justify ANY ARGUMENT.

if you are going to use the book as your proof, please stick to what is actually in the book and not stuff that you have made up to make it easier for you to accept what is in the book.


and the 6000 year thing comes from christians.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
and there you go, you insert this 'maybe its not the whole story' BS so that you can us your book to justify ANY ARGUMENT.
Well, it's really, really, really obvious to even the casual observer it's not the whole story. It doesn't even pretend to be. Whole millenium go by without a peep about what happened except who begot whom. No one thinks it's the full story.
if you are going to use the book as your proof, please stick to what is actually in the book and not stuff that you have made up to make it easier for you to accept what is in the book.
I don't use "the book" as proof of anything, except to refute what people say is in there when it's not. Never once do I begin a point with, "well, the Bible says...." You're fighting with the wrong person if that's your issue.

Besides, I've never made anything up about it. I say "maybe it means this", and "maybe it means that" when people take small tidbits out of context and declare a meaning for it. I put the tidbit back into context, and say there's more than one meaning to so many things.

I have no problem accepting what's in the book, and I have no problem understanding that it's not the whole story. It contains everything I need to get out of it what I need to get out of it to live my life and worship my God. It doesn't say anything about how to change my spark plugs, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't change my spark plugs - there are just some things God meant for us to figure out all on our own. I have a very high regard for my fellow human being, and I believe God did overall as well. That's why he gave us free will, and the intelligence that we have.
and the 6000 year thing comes from christians.
And, they have to use the word "assume" to come up with it. There is no direct Biblical timeframe from then to now without enormous assumptions, and most Christians do not accept the 6000 year thing
 

tommyjones

New Member
Well, it's really, really, really obvious to even the casual observer it's not the whole story. It doesn't even pretend to be. Whole millenium go by without a peep about what happened except who begot whom. No one thinks it's the full story.I don't use "the book" as proof of anything, except to refute what people say is in there when it's not. Never once do I begin a point with, "well, the Bible says...." You're fighting with the wrong person if that's your issue.

Besides, I've never made anything up about it. I say "maybe it means this", and "maybe it means that" when people take small tidbits out of context and declare a meaning for it. I put the tidbit back into context, and say there's more than one meaning to so many things.

I have no problem accepting what's in the book, and I have no problem understanding that it's not the whole story. It contains everything I need to get out of it what I need to get out of it to live my life and worship my God. It doesn't say anything about how to change my spark plugs, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't change my spark plugs - there are just some things God meant for us to figure out all on our own. I have a very high regard for my fellow human being, and I believe God did overall as well. That's why he gave us free will, and the intelligence that we have.And, they have to use the word "assume" to come up with it. There is no direct Biblical timeframe from then to now without enormous assumptions, and most Christians do not accept the 6000 year thing

that is so retarded.....


so the only thing that is mentioned for mellineium is WHICH HUMANS WERE BORN TO WHOM. your "maybe" stance aside there is no mention of any other humans or humanoids.


and if you want to play maybe, well MAYBE god is an alien and he took the forum of a human type only to keep from scaring the beejesus out of moses and the others. and MAYBE jesus was really an alien who took human form to check to see how we were progressing as a species, and MAYBE the prophetic second coming of christ is really going to be when the aliens come back to harvest all living humans for a food source.

see how your maybe works, it adds nothing to the argument because everything after it is made up.

as for the 6000 years, from what i understand it is a resonable accounting considering the generations of begoting. most christians use the "maybe" time didn't mean the same thing in biblical times so we can't figure it out to aviod the issue.
 
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baydoll

New Member
Good Morning, All!

I am a bit busier than normal this morning so please bear with me.....I will try and answer all your questions today....if not today, hopefully tomorrow. I am trying my best!

Thanks for being patient! :flowers:
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
so the only thing that is mentioned for mellineium is WHICH HUMANS WERE BORN TO WHOM. your "maybe" stance aside there is no mention of any other humans or humanoids.
So, no mention means they didn't exist? You're not mentioned, do you exist?
and if you want to play maybe, well MAYBE god is an alien and he took the forum of a human type only to keep from scaring the beejesus out of moses and the others. and MAYBE jesus was really an alien who took human form to check to see how we were progressing as a species, and MAYBE the prophetic second coming of christ is really going to be when the aliens come back to harvest all living humans for a food source.

see how your maybe works, it adds nothing to the argument because everything after it is made up.
Maybe God is an alien, but that's certainly not within the confines of how the book reads. It pretty much says He's not, so it wouldn't fit into the story line.

However, when there are gaping holes in the story, and only a very small number of ways in which the holes could be filled and fit the story line, a maybe here and there makes a lot of sense. Especially when the hole is meaningless in the overall scheme of the story. And, whether other people were made besides Adam and Eve is really very meaningless to the overall story.

And, it still keeps us bogged down in this meaningless bickering over whether they were or weren't. So, for the sake of argument, they were. So what? What does that have to do with fossil records? You asked if Adam and Eve looked like us, and I replied that there's nothing in the story to suggest they look like modern humans - can we move on now, or do you want to express your communication skills by using the word "retarded" one more time?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
as for the 6000 years, from what i understand it is a resonable accounting considering the generations of begoting. most christians use the "maybe" time didn't mean the same thing in biblical times so we can't figure it out to aviod the issue.
Interesting edit.....

"Reasonable accounting" means assuming stuff. Won't fly.
 

baydoll

New Member
so how do you and TP explain all the various huminoid precursers to Homo sapien that have been found as fossils?


In most of those cases nobody really knows for sure. For instance:


Ramapithicus.

This animal was long believed to be the 1st branch from that line of apes which evolved into man about 14 million years ago. Noted scientist Dr. Elwyn Simons stated confidently, "The pathway can now be traced with little fear of contradiction from generalized hominids - to the genus HOMO." The crucial importance of Ramapithicus as an early ancestor of hominids is evident in this comment by Simons in Time magazine (Nov. 7, 1977):- "Ramapithicus is ideally structured to be an ancestor of hominids. If he isn't, we don't have anything else that is." How true a statement! From what evidence are these conclusions drawn in the 1st place ? Once again a few teeth and a jaw bone. From this many drawings have been made of Ramapithicus walking upright!

Renowned secular anthropologist Richard Leaky (American Scientist 1976, 64:174) stated that "The case for Ramapithicus as a hominid is not substantial, and the fragments of fossil material leave many questions open". Zilman and Lowenstein went even further by stating that "Ramapithicus walking upright has been reconstructed from only jaws and teeth".

The legitimacy of this ape has been sanctified by millions of textbooks and Time-Life volumes on human evolution. However, Harvard University paleontologist David Pilbeam, a hugely secular scientist summed up what all know is true (Science 82, April 6-7): "A group of creatures once thought to be our oldest ancestors may have been firmly bumped out of the human family tree. Many paleontologists have maintained that Ramamorphs are our oldest known ancestors. These conclusions were drawn from little more than a few jaw bones and some teeth. Truthfully, it appears to be nothing more than an orang-utan ancestor."
 
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baydoll

New Member
The bolded on your list:

SPECIES TIME PERIOD
Ardipithicus ramidus 5 to 4 million years ago
Australopithecus anamensis 4.2 to 3.9 million years ago
Australopithecus afarensis 4 to 2.7 million years ago
Australopithecus africanus 3 to 2 million years ago
Australopithecus robustus 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo habilis 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo erectus 2.0 to 0.4 million years ago
Homo sapiens archaic 400 to 200 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens neandertalensis 200 to 30 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens sapiens 200 thousand years ago to present

Australopithecus. Donald Johanson in his book "Lucy" refers to the "australopithecine mess" - and it definitely is that. The very word Australopithecus means "southern ape" because the first fossils were found in South Africa by Dr. Raymond Dart, professor of anatomy at Witwatersrand University in Johannesburg.
Dart was convinced that some teeth were man-like and thus concluded it represented a transitional between apes and man. His opinions on the matter were largely scorned by the scientists of his time (1924) who considered it nothing more than a chimpanzee. The skull was soon known derisively as "Dart's baby". Perhaps no one has studied the australopithecines more than Sir Solly Zuckerman who wrote: "Evolution as a Process" in 1954: "There is indeed no question which the australopithecine skull resembles when placed side by side with specimens of humans and living ape skulls. It is the ape so much so that only detailed and close scrutiny can reveal any difference between modern ape and Australopithecus."

Australopithecus afarensis. Commonly know as "LUCY" - Discovered in 1974 by Donald Johanson was a half complete skeleton he named after the Beetle's song "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds". A year later 13 more similar skeletons were found. Remarkably the skull was even more ape-like than other australopithecines.

In his book "Lucy, The beginnings of Human Kind," Johanson said: I had no problem with Lucy. She was so odd that there was no question about her not being human. She simply wasn't. She was too little. Her brain was way too small and her jaw was the wrong shape. Her teeth pointed away from the human condition and back in the direction of apes. The jaws had the same primitive features."
On the basis of a hip and knee joint found later, however, Johnson "decided" that Lucy did walk in an upright bipedal fashion. He thus deduced Lucy was an ancestor of man, as well as an ancestor of A. africanus (the original Australopithecus).

However, there are conflicting reports as to whether Lucy did actually walk upright. The following quote was taken from The Institute for Creation Research web-site.

"The features which suggest upright posture to Johanson are primarily the hip and knee joints, but numerous studies on the hip have shown otherwise. Oxnard, in his 1987 book, Fossils, Teeth and Sex (which contains an excellent summary of these various studies), claims that, "These fossils clearly differ more from both humans and African apes than do these living groups from each other. The australopithecines are unique" (p. 227). Evidently they could walk somewhat upright, as pygmy chimps do today, but not in the human manner at all". To top

Homo habilis. The taxon Homo habilis had an illegitimate birth when Mary Leakey discovered some badly shattered skull fragments in 1959. Her husband Louis made the comment that it was nothing more than a "damned australopithecine". His attitude soon changed however when he found stone tools near the site of Homo habilis. Jumping into the fire, he quickly named it Homo and publicized the find widely. He was soon discredited when other australopithecines were found in Africa, also with stone tools. Homo habilis was "demoted" to australopithecine. This didn't stop Leakey though. In 1964, he found four more specimens in Olduvai Gorge. These he claimed had bigger brains than Australopithecus and surely deserved to be classified as Homo habilis. Measurements of the cranial capacity were nearly impossible since the skulls were so badly crushed but, nonetheless, it was concluded that they averaged 642 cc's, or 200 cc's larger than Australopithecus and he considered that enough to make them Homo.

Not everyone was as enthusiastic as Leakey was about his new "handymen". Homo habilis was soon considered an empty taxon that was inadequately proposed.

New life was breathed into Homo habilis by Louis and Mary's son, Richard Leakey who was working in the Lake Rudolf area in Kenya. Leakey found numerous stone tools and 40 specimens of Australopithecus. Then, in 1972, he he made a discovery that was to shake the world of paleo-anthropology to it's foundations. He found the toolmaker his father had long sought in vain. Perhaps he found even more than he bargained for. He found several fossilized bone fragments of a skull which his wife Meave carefully assembled to make a nearly complete skull minus the lower jaw. The skull was named KNMER 1470 for its registration at the Kenya National Museum in East Rudolf.

The skull capacity was difficult to measure because of the condition of the assemblage but was estimated to be 800 cc's (later lowered to 750 cc's), much larger than so called ape-men skulls. There were only small eyebrow ridges, no crest and a domed skull typical of humans today. Indeed it appeared to be a human skull. Professor A. Cave who first demonstrated that Neanderthal man was completely human examined 1470 in London and concluded: "As far as I can see, typically human". In addition, Leakey found 2 complete femurs, a part of a third femur and parts of a tibia and fibula near the skull which he said "cannot be readily distinguished from Homo-sapien."

Let's talk about the dating of 1470. In 1969 samples of KBS tuft from just above the layer in which 1470 was found was sent to Cambridge University for potassium argon dating. Three different test gave an age of 220 million years old +or- 7 million years ! This was considered unacceptable for for this strata given its fossil content, so the errors were blamed on "extraneous" argon. Several more tests were done, and the best, most acceptable date was placed at 2.61 million years old. In National Geographic of June 1973 Richard Leakey stated," Either we toss out the 1470 skull or we toss out all our theories of early man. It simply fits no previous models of human beginnings. 1470 leaves in ruin the notion that all early fossils can be arranged in an orderly sequence of evolutionary changes."

What was the problem? The problem, given the age of 2.61 myo, made 1470 contemporaneous with Australopithecus, if not older - yet looked identical to modern man. This absolutely unseated Australopithecus as ancestor of modern man!

In later lectures, Richard Leakey never made reference to 1470, preferring perhaps, to sweep it under the rug. However, in a PBS documentary in 1990 he stated, "If pressed about man's ancestry, I would have to unequivocally say that all we have is a huge question mark. To date, there has been nothing found to truthfully purport as a transitional specie to man, including Lucy, since 1470 was as old and probably older. If further pressed, I would have to state that there is more evidence to suggest an abrupt arrival of man rather than a gradual process of evolving." This from the world's foremost paleo-anthropologist !
 
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baydoll

New Member
Continuing on:

Homo erectus (Java and Peking man). This specimen is undoubtedly the weakest link in the human evolution scenario. Shortly after Darwin published his Origin of the Species, a Dutch physician named Eugene Dubois, went in search of Pithecanthropus in Sumatra. Dubois had been a student of Ernst Haeckel, famous for his "biogenetic Law" that stated a human embryo went through a sequential evolutionary stage of its ancestors. It is now well known through medical science that this is far from true. What else is well known is that Haeckel falsified most of his data.

Having failed to get financial assistance from the Dutch government, Dubois enlisted in the French Foreign Legion to gain his goal. While in Sumatra, he heard about a skull found on the nearby island of Java. He was able to secure the skull and even found another like it at the same location. However, these skulls were too human looking to be of any use to someone looking for an ape-man. In 1891, he found a molar tooth along the Solo river. Later the same year, he found another molar and an ape-like skull cap. The following year he found a human femur 46 feet from where he found the skull cap. Although at first he thought it was a chimpanzee skull, after consulting with Haeckel, he declared the whole collection to belong to one and the same creature, stating it was "admirably suited to the role of missing link".
This missing link arrived just in time to salvage Darwin's theory as it was under fire because of the total lack of transitional forms found or not found as the case was. By joining an ape skull with a human femur he had truly created an ape-man. He originally claimed that the strata he was working in was Pliocene but after discovering his ape-man, he decided it was really tertiary. We now know both to be false.
When taking his specimen on tour, he could not find a single legitimate scientist to chair any of his meetings. Nonetheless, newspapers and magazines embraced him wholeheartedly, even drawing many pictures of complete ape-men. As Dubois came under increasing attack, he became very secretive about his fossil finds - to the point of hiding them under his dining room floor and refusing to let them be examined. A few years before his death in 1940, Dubois finally admitted the skulls were in his opinion those of a large Gibbon. Evolutionists however refused to accept this and to this day it is still being taught as a transitional, though all modern scientists have debunked it.

The other fossil in the Homo erectus taxon is Peking man. An almost complete skull cap was discovered in 1929 in an in-filled limestone cave near Peking, China (now Beijing). This ape-like skull cap was similar to Java man. The cave continued to be investigated until the beginning of World War II. Fragments of 14 skulls, 12 lower jaws and 147 teeth were found. Also, several skeletons of modern man were found slightly higher. Once again, bone fragments were assembled from various places to form a skull. For example, the jaw bone came from a level 85 feet higher than the skull and face bones. After hiring a sculptor to model a woman's face from the made-up skull, the result was named "Nellie". Nellie has appeared in almost all textbooks.
As usual, at the site where "she" was found was found also numerous stone tools and evidence of butchery and fires. Recently, Chinese scientists have found over a 1,000 stone tools, the skulls of over 100 modern day animals, as well as 6 modern human skulls. The skulls and all fragments showed evidence of being shattered or broken in. In addition, a layer of ashes nearly 4 feet thick was found. The Chinese assume Homo erectus made these tools, despite the fact that the brain capacity of the put-together skulls was only that of a small chimp. The whole and complete modern human skulls found were completely discredited.
 

tommyjones

New Member
So, no mention means they didn't exist? You're not mentioned, do you exist?Maybe God is an alien, but that's certainly not within the confines of how the book reads. It pretty much says He's not, so it wouldn't fit into the story line.

However, when there are gaping holes in the story, and only a very small number of ways in which the holes could be filled and fit the story line, a maybe here and there makes a lot of sense. Especially when the hole is meaningless in the overall scheme of the story. And, whether other people were made besides Adam and Eve is really very meaningless to the overall story.

And, it still keeps us bogged down in this meaningless bickering over whether they were or weren't. So, for the sake of argument, they were. So what? What does that have to do with fossil records? You asked if Adam and Eve looked like us, and I replied that there's nothing in the story to suggest they look like modern humans - can we move on now, or do you want to express your communication skills by using the word "retarded" one more time?

but all those maybes are just as valid as the ones you use to defend your position, none of which are supported by the book.


you have 'made' the hole in the adam and eve story so you can insert your additional peoples, but that's certainly not within the confines of how the book reads.
 
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