As in the days of Noah.....

tommyjones

New Member
Continuing on:

nice cut and paste, but what does it really prove? only that there are many many fossils on record and scientist are debating their validity and meaning. BTW what about the 5 or 6 that you didn't bold, i guess those are all valid?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
And thats the problem that YOU, Toxic, Psyops and others have, because even though you have Faith, your a (little) more reasonable and practical.
"Reasonable and practical" is a problem? :lol:

Yes, I really do understand, I just thought it was funny
Unlike when Baydoll, Italian, Bavarian, FoodCritic, Marie, 2nd, and others (BCP) make threads and/or posts about another belief, theory, lifestyle they do it based on the Absoluteness of the Bible. What is in the Bible is infallable, and if its in there it is correct and not for interpretation. The earth is 6000 years old, the Ark did hold 2 of every animal, the Bat is a bird (or a mistranslation), Adam and Eve were the only ones in Eden.

You hold a more practical interpretation of the Bible, they do not believe in an Interpretation at all.
Well, I do think that the Bible is infallable, when it comes to salvation. Every single person who reads it is going to come away with their own interpretations, that's just human nature. If we were there and saw what was going on in each story, we'd have different interpretations too. Whether the earth is 6000 years old, or if great assumptions had to go into making that statement is really meaningless (to me) in the grand scheme of Biblical knowledge. Whether the Ark held two of every clean animal, or two of every clean animal that Noah could find and store, or whatever, is really meaningless to the grand scheme of the story. Whether Adam and Eve were the only two in the garden, or the only two humans ever created is really meaningless in the grand scheme of the story. I think Adam and Eve were created, as humans, as immortals, ate the "fruit" from the "tree" of knowledge of good and evil, and set our fates (which, honestly, was already set). Whether Joanie and Chachi were made also (concurrent, before, or after) really is meaningless as to whether there is a God that created mankind, don't you think?

Too literal a read (or, rather, to narrow minded a view) can be misinforming. For example, when God set our lifespans at 120 years, we didn't all automatically live exactly 120 years. Even the people at the time were far older, and they didn't just immediately die. Their offspring didn't immediatley live to exactly 120 years.... God slowly changed us over time to have that as a nominal maximum life time - we evolved into that status.

Science and the Bible are not enemies of information. I rarely see a reason for the animousity given Biblical followers by scientific followers, or vice versa. We all want the same thing, basically - what's the truth? If humans evolved over time, that does not negate how we got here. (which is why my argument against evolution is sponge to human end, not human evolution) If the universe began with a "Big Bang", or a thought of God, what's the actual difference? Science can prove the how's, as I say, and that's a good thing for all. But, it doesn't negate God, and God's existance doesn't negate scientific discovery in any way.

Anyway, that's been my whole point all along.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
but all those maybes are just as valid as the ones you use to defend your position, none of which are supported by the book.
Well, no. The idea of Jesus as an alien is specifically shown to be wrong, because the origin of Jesus is deliniated in pretty good detail (enough, anyway, to demonstrate he wasn't an alien). So, not really as valid at all
you have 'made' the hole in the adam and eve story so you can insert your additional peoples, but that's certainly not within the confines of how the book reads.
What hole did I make? :lol: Where Cain and Abel's wives came from (well, actually, there's never a mention of Abel ever having a wife, but....), or who Cain thought would kill him is a hole just hanging there all without my intervention at all. Who God and Adam sought as a suitable mate for Adam before Eve was created is an open hole there all without me at all. I just use context clues and the good sense God gave me to come up with potential (and unnecessary) answers as to what MAY fill those holes.
 

tommyjones

New Member
Well, no. The idea of Jesus as an alien is specifically shown to be wrong, because the origin of Jesus is deliniated in pretty good detail (enough, anyway, to demonstrate he wasn't an alien). So, not really as valid at all
What hole did I make? :lol: Where Cain and Abel's wives came from (well, actually, there's never a mention of Abel ever having a wife, but....), or who Cain thought would kill him is a hole just hanging there all without my intervention at all. Who God and Adam sought as a suitable mate for Adam before Eve was created is an open hole there all without me at all. I just use context clues and the good sense God gave me to come up with potential (and unnecessary) answers as to what MAY fill those holes.
i see what you did there , so you assumed it. :whistle:


It is every bit as valid. as i said maybe God is an alien and since jesus is gods son.....


you can fight it because you dont agree, but the fact of the matter is that it is just as valid of a maybe as your idiotical theroy that cain married some person whos creation you assumed but is specifically not mentioned.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
i see what you did there , so you assumed it. :whistle:
Yep, just like I said I did :whistle:
It is every bit as valid. as i said maybe God is an alien and since jesus is gods son.....

you can fight it because you dont agree, but the fact of the matter is that it is just as valid of a maybe as your idiotical theroy that cain married some person whos creation you assumed but is specifically not mentioned.
Well, other than specific words showing where Jesus came from (thereby making it not true for Jesus), I agree it's a possibility. Just not a very logical one, or one that fits in the story of God being the creator of the universe (unless, of course, by alien you mean alien to the universe, and then it would fit into the story).

So, other than mine fitting into the story as an insignificant omission, and yours not fitting into the story at all, they're both possibilities. And, neither one means much of anything towards understanding what's in the Bible insofar as it's meaning actually goes.
 

tommyjones

New Member
Yep, just like I said I did :whistle:Well, other than specific words showing where Jesus came from (thereby making it not true for Jesus), I agree it's a possibility. Just not a very logical one, or one that fits in the story of God being the creator of the universe (unless, of course, by alien you mean alien to the universe, and then it would fit into the story).

So, other than mine fitting into the story as an insignificant omission, and yours not fitting into the story at all, they're both possibilities. And, neither one means much of anything towards understanding what's in the Bible insofar as it's meaning actually goes.

funny that you find your rediculous assumption valid, but my equally rediculous assumption not.

the reason is simply that it doesn't fit YOUR interpretation.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
funny that you find your rediculous assumption valid, but my equally rediculous assumption not.

the reason is simply that it doesn't fit YOUR interpretation.
So, the creator of the universe came from the universe He created? And, that in some way makes sense to you? :lmao:



I'm still trying to figure your point to all of this.

I'll stipulate that Adam and Eve could very well have been the only two, and that trillions of people came from them. And, we have fossil evidence of that. What were you driving at from that?
 

tommyjones

New Member
So, the creator of the universe came from the universe He created? And, that in some way makes sense to you? :lmao:



I'm still trying to figure your point to all of this.

I'll stipulate that Adam and Eve could very well have been the only two, and that trillions of people came from them. And, we have fossil evidence of that. What were you driving at from that?

well isn't that nice of you to stipulate to EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS :whistle:
what fossil evidence points to adam and eve as the original two humans that all of humanity from which all of humanity was begotten?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
well isn't that nice of you to stipulate to EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS :whistle:
what fossil evidence points to adam and eve as the original two humans that all of humanity from which all of humanity was begotten?
I don't understand the question - if we don't specifically find the exact humans that were Adam and Eve, then they didn't exist? Or, what is it you're asking?
 

tommyjones

New Member
I don't understand the question - if we don't specifically find the exact humans that were Adam and Eve, then they didn't exist? Or, what is it you're asking?

you said "and we have fossil evidence of that"

where is this fossil evidence, and what humanoid form does it point to adam and eve resembling?
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
you said "and we have fossil evidence of that"

where is this fossil evidence, and what humanoid form does it point to adam and eve resembling?
fossil evidence of mankind existing into the past. If it came across that I was saying that we have specific fossil evidence of Adam and Eve exactly, I misspoke. I was trying to get back onto topic - you asked what I made of fossil evidence of humanoids. I make of it that it is fossil evidence that humanoids existed. I was trying to find out what significance that had towards anything at all.
 

tommyjones

New Member
fossil evidence of mankind existing into the past. If it came across that I was saying that we have specific fossil evidence of Adam and Eve exactly, I misspoke. I was trying to get back onto topic - you asked what I made of fossil evidence of humanoids. I make of it that it is fossil evidence that humanoids existed. I was trying to find out what significance that had towards anything at all.

well it either goes to show that humans evolved OR that god made numerous attempts at the human form, neither of which is covered in the story of creation. As much as you would like to deny it, the story is quite complete as to the lineage of the human animal, so these fossils through quite a monkey wrench into the whole judeo/christian religion's explaination.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
well it either goes to show that humans evolved OR that god made numerous attempts at the human form, neither of which is covered in the story of creation. As much as you would like to deny it, the story is quite complete as to the lineage of the human animal, so these fossils through quite a monkey wrench into the whole judeo/christian religion's explaination.
The only problem with your monkey wrench being thrown in is it doesn't exist.

  • Nowhere does it imply Adam and Eve looked like us today

  • Unless you read into the story of a woman who was as yet uncreated, undocumented, and unknown being Cain's wife, or the story not explaining that this whole different person described as Cain's wife was really Adam's wife (and it just doesn't explain it), you have to realize that there is more to the story than just what's being specified. That could mean a sister, that could mean a whole different creation. Who was it Cain was worried would kill him when he pleaded with God (Gen 4:14) "...and whoever finds me will kill me."? If he was only worried about the only two other people that are in writing at that point, don't you think he would either A) not be worried his mom and dad would kill him, or B) say "...so if Mom or Dad find me, they'll kill me."?

  • And, perhaps, they're not our ancestors - just other animals that God created (since, again, it doesn't list them all specifically, just in general terms -- thus, not the complete story, even though you keep saying it is) They could very well be fossils of exactly what they look like, but either did not pre-date humans (and, like the missing links, we'll find 'em one day fer shur!! :lol:), or they did predate humans out of the Garden of Eden, but not in an ancestor/offspring kind of way.

No, I don't see a monkey wrench at all..... Sorry!
 

tommyjones

New Member
The only problem with your monkey wrench being thrown in is it doesn't exist.

  • Nowhere does it imply Adam and Eve looked like us today

  • Unless you read into the story of a woman who was as yet uncreated, undocumented, and unknown being Cain's wife, or the story not explaining that this whole different person described as Cain's wife was really Adam's wife (and it just doesn't explain it), you have to realize that there is more to the story than just what's being specified. That could mean a sister, that could mean a whole different creation. Who was it Cain was worried would kill him when he pleaded with God (Gen 4:14) "...and whoever finds me will kill me."? If he was only worried about the only two other people that are in writing at that point, don't you think he would either A) not be worried his mom and dad would kill him, or B) say "...so if Mom or Dad find me, they'll kill me."?

  • And, perhaps, they're not our ancestors - just other animals that God created (since, again, it doesn't list them all specifically, just in general terms -- thus, not the complete story, even though you keep saying it is) They could very well be fossils of exactly what they look like, but either did not pre-date humans (and, like the missing links, we'll find 'em one day fer shur!! :lol:), or they did predate humans out of the Garden of Eden, but not in an ancestor/offspring kind of way.

No, I don't see a monkey wrench at all..... Sorry!


only because you have changed the story through your assumptions to fit the facts.
you really need to go back to sunday school.
 

tommyjones

New Member
Please enlighten me as to where I've changed the story :roflmao:

first you created antoher group of people to one of which cain was married.
then you say that it is possible that adam and eve were prehuman ancestors of ours and didn't look like us, assuming that we somehow evolved from them into our current species.
then you say that the fossils of prehuman man were created by god outside the garden and were not like adam and eve, but a lesser species
and that was just in one post.
:lmao:
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
first you created antoher group of people to one of which cain was married.
I didn't create them, they're in the story! Cain knew his wife - so therefore she must have existed (at least within the bounds of the story). Since she wasn't specifically named as Eve, the only woman so far named, she must have come from SOMEWHERE, right? So, where did she come from? A couple of potential answers - sister, other creation. If you can think of any other potential answers, or (since you keep saying it's a complete story) show me where it says where she came from without assuming anything, please do.
then you say that it is possible that adam and eve were prehuman ancestors of ours and didn't look like us, assuming that we somehow evolved from them into our current species.
Is that not a possibility? Does that not fit into the story?
then you say that the fossils of prehuman man were created by god outside the garden and were not like adam and eve, but a lesser species
Is that not a possibility? Does that not fit into the story?

Just because you don't get it, don't attack me for having an open mind. Try opening yours instead. I didn't say any of these ARE the answer, I listed them as each potential answers
 

baydoll

New Member
Marie, if your going to cut and paste an answer, you need to cite a source. If your going to just post any line of garbage you think supports your argument, i'll start posting Calvin and Hobbes, it wouldnt be any different.


Marie? Who is this Marie person? That's not me, dear.

As for the links, I will most indeed cite the sources for you.
 
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baydoll

New Member
nice cut and paste, but what does it really prove? only that there are many many fossils on record and scientist are debating their validity and meaning.


Why thank you!

It proves that your chart doesn't provide the whole story. Yes there are many many fossils on record but none of them have been proven to be the missing link. Scientists are now EXAMINING these 'fossils' to see if they are indeed what evolutionists say they are. It's called taking an honest look at things instead of playing guessing games and then labeling it as truth.


BTW what about the 5 or 6 that you didn't bold, i guess those are all valid

I'm glad you asked!

Let's examine them, shall we?

Here's your chart:

SPECIES TIME PERIOD
Ardipithicus ramidus 5 to 4 million years ago
Australopithecus anamensis 4.2 to 3.9 million years ago
Australopithecus afarensis 4 to 2.7 million years ago
Australopithecus africanus 3 to 2 million years ago
Australopithecus robustus 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo habilis 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago
Homo erectus 2.0 to 0.4 million years ago
Homo sapiens archaic 400 to 200 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens neandertalensis 200 to 30 thousand years ago
Homo sapiens sapiens 200 thousand years ago to present

First up Ardipithicus ramidus: (from an excellent article from Apologetic Press link to follow)

The banner on the front cover of the July 23, 2001 issue of Time announced somewhat authoritatively, “How Apes Became Humans,” and claimed that a new hominid discovery tells “scientists about how our oldest ancestors stood on two legs and made an evolutionary leap.” Yet those empty cover-words become almost secondary as readers find themselves captivated by the “ape-man” drawing that blankets the entire cover. Unfortunately, many readers may never make it to page 57, where staff writers Michael Lemonick and Andrea Dorfman admit that the discoverers of the fossils under discussion, Yohannes Haile-Selassie and his colleagues, “haven’t collected enough bones yet to reconstruct with great precision what kadabba looked like.” That fact, however, did not prevent the magazine’s editors from putting an intimidating, full-color spread of this new creature on the cover—an image that becomes somewhat laughable in light of the actual facts. A thorough investigation of this “scientific discovery” reveals that this creature was “reconstructed” from only 6 bone fragments (and a few teeth)—of which, the only bone that might provide the artist with any structural information of the head is a piece of the right mandible.
In their article, “One Giant Step for Mankind,” Lemonick and Dorfman invite the reader to “meet your newfound ancestor, a chimplike forest creature that stood up and walked 5.8 million years ago” (p. 54). This new creature has been named Ardipithecus ramidus kadabba (kadabba—taken from the Afar language—means “basal family ancestor”) and lived, according to evolutionists, between 5.2 and 5.8 million years ago. This beats the previous record holder by nearly a million-and-a-half years, and according to evolutionists’ estimates, puts them “very close to the time when humans and chimps first went their separate ways” (p. 56). Lemonick and Dorfman went on to comment: “…[N]o one has yet been able to say precisely when that first evolutionary step on the road to humanity happened, nor what might have triggered it. But a discovery reported last week [July 12—BH] in the journal Nature has brought paleontologists tantalizingly close to answering both these questions” (for the original Nature article, see Haile-Selassie, 2001). That’s a pretty tall statement, considering the fact that researchers had only the following bone fragments to discern all of this information: fragment of the right mandible, one intermediate hand phalanx, left humerus and ulna, distal humerus, proximal hand phalanx fragment, left clavicle fragment, proximal foot phalanx, and a few teeth. Additionally, these bones were not laid out neatly in typical skeletal format, all grouped together just waiting for researchers to dig them up. No indeed. These few bones took researchers 5 years to collect, and came from 5 different locations! And so, from a fossilized toe, a piece of jawbone, a finger, arm bones, a clavicle, and a few teeth we have this incredible “ape-man” telling us “how apes became human.”
Prominently displayed in the center of page 59 of the Time article is a tiny fragment of a toe bone. Lemonick and Dorfman wrote: “This toe bone proves the creature walked on two legs.” Amazing, is it not, what one can discern from a single toe bone! The human foot contains 26 individual bones, (see Netter, 1994, p. 492), and yet evolutionary scientists claim that they can distinguish walking characteristics from just a single bone? That bold caption also fails to inform the reader that this toe bone was found in 1999, is “chronologically younger” than the other bone fragments, and was found in a separate location from the rest of the fossils. In fact, the bone fragments that make up this new specimen came from five localities of the Middle Awash in Ethiopia: Saitune Dora, Alaya, Asa Koma, Digiba Dora, and Amba East (Haile-Selassie, 2001, 412:181). Lemonick and Dorfman admitted: “Exactly how this hominid walked is still something of a mystery, though with a different skeletal structure, its gait would have been unlike ours” (p. 57). But that did not stop the authors from speculating that “kadabba almost certainly walked upright much of the time” and that “many of its behaviors undoubtedly resembled those of chimpanzees today” (p. 57). Interesting speculation, especially in view of the fact that the ages of the fossilized bone fragments composing kadabba vary by hundreds of thousands of years, even using the evolutionists’ own dating schemes.
While Ardipithecus ramidus kadabba undoubtedly will stir controversy among evolutionists as to exactly where it fits into the “evolutionary family tree,” it does little to answer the questions of “how apes became human,” or when and why these creatures became bipedal. Given the small measurements of the fossilized bones collected, kadabba is very likely to find itself relegated to the same branch as the infamous Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis)—simply a fossilized ape.
Apologetics Press - Ardipithecus ramidus kadabba or “What Bone is the Toe Bone Connected To"?

I'm just getting started...more to come!
 

baydoll

New Member
Second on your list are the Australopithecus family, the Ape family.


Australopithecus anamensis 4.2 to 3.9 million years ago
Australopithecus afarensis 4 to 2.7 million years ago
Australopithecus africanus 3 to 2 million years ago
Australopithecus robustus 2.2 to 1.6 million years ago


The first category, the genus Australopithecus, means "southern ape," as we have said. It is assumed that these creatures first appeared in Africa about 4 million years ago, and lived until 1 million years ago. There are a number of different species among the australopithecines. Evolutionists assume that the oldest Australopithecus species is A. afarensis. After that comes A. africanus, and then A. robustus, which has relatively bigger bones. As for A. Boisei, some researchers accept it as a different species, and others as a sub-species of A. Robustus.
All of the Australopithecus species are extinct apes that resemble the apes of today. Their cranial capacities are the same or smaller than the chimpanzees of our day. There are projecting parts in their hands and feet which they used to climb trees, just like today's chimpanzees, and their feet are built for grasping to hold onto branches. Many other characteristics-such as the details in their skulls, the closeness of their eyes, their sharp molar teeth, their mandibular structure, their long arms, and their short legs-constitute evidence that these creatures were no different from today's ape. However, evolutionists claim that, although australopithecines have the anatomy of apes, unlike apes, they walked upright like humans.

This claim that australopithecines walked upright is a view that has been held by paleoanthropologists such as Richard Leakey and Donald C. Johanson for decades. Yet many scientists who have carried out a great deal of research on the skeletal structures of australopithecines have proved the invalidity of that argument. Extensive research done on various Australopithecus specimens by two world-renowned anatomists from England and the USA, Lord Solly Zuckerman and Prof. Charles Oxnard, showed that these creatures did not walk upright in human manner. Having studied the bones of these fossils for a period of 15 years thanks to grants from the British government, Lord Zuckerman and his team of five specialists reached the conclusion that australopithecines were only an ordinary species of ape, and were definitely not bipedal, although Zuckerman is an evolutionist himself.186 Correspondingly, Charles E. Oxnard, who is another evolutionary anatomist famous for his research on the subject, also likened the skeletal structure of australopithecines to that of modern orangutans.187
That Australopithecus cannot be counted an ancestor of man has recently been accepted by evolutionist sources. The famous French popular scientific magazine Science et Vie made the subject the cover of its May 1999 issue. Under the headline "Adieu Lucy"-Lucy being the most important fossil example of the species Australopithecus afarensis-the magazine reported that apes of the species Australopithecus would have to be removed from the human family tree. In this article, based on the discovery of another Australopithecus fossil known simply as St W573, the following sentences appear:
A new theory states that the genus Australopithecus is not the root of the human race… The results arrived at by the only woman authorized to examine St W573 are different from the normal theories regarding mankind's ancestors: this destroys the hominid family tree. Large primates, considered the ancestors of man, have been removed from the equation of this family tree… Australopithecus and Homo (human) species do not appear on the same branch. Man's direct ancestors are still waiting to be discovered.188
Darwinism Refuted.com
 
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