Assault with Shooting - Lexington Park

[TreeRat]

First off. extra powder isn't the answer.. the 9mm round is already too fast, making it faster out of the barrel makes it a worse round, not a better round.

Compared to the .45 the 9 is at about 1200 - 1300 fps, the .45 about 800 - 900.. so being that the .45 already has better stopping power, the velocity isn't something that needs to be fixed. Adding powder is just a waste of money, and make the gun just that much harder to control (ie, the chances are reduced for the much needed placement of the 2nd and 3rd round that we KNOW you'll need to hit the target with)

The "soft" tip may help a little bit, but still won't give it near the capability of a .45.

With the low velocity, the weight of the round the .45 will stop whatever it is you are shooting it at, and the round itself has limited penetration.. meaning the chance of shooting through your drywall, and your neighbors drywall and shooting your neighbor with an errant round are much decreased..

So NO, the 9mm is not a preferred home/ self defense weapon.

Wow...a caliber war on the Southern Maryland Forums!

I wanna play.

This is a classic fast/light, slow/heavy debate in that you seem to suggest that because the 9mm is not a subsonic round, it somehow makes it less effective.

After all is said and done, it's not about caliber but about load selection and shot placement. 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP are all about equal despite what each says about their chosen caliber. With todays bullet technology, the likes of Gold Dot, HST, and SXT Talon, all are about equal in effectiveness.....for a handgun round.

Over penetration is a function of bullet expansion, not speed. FMJ does not expand, quality HP's do.

Given a choice between 45 ACP and 9mm were it just FMJ as the only option, you might favor 45 ACP, although from a tactical battle field stand point, 9mm has been proven to penetrate soft targets a bit more.

In the end it's still about shot placement and load selection.....and yes...available rounds.

Given the choice between 8-13 rounds of 45 ACP, 12-15 rounds of 40 S&W, or 16+ rounds of 9mm......

Don't ever discount the merits in the ability to place rounds on target with the shootability of 9mm. It's fine and even a desired attribute for self defense.

For me, 40 S&W with lots of rounds and even more effectivenes over 9mm...and yes most 45 ACP loads.

I like 45 ACP's......have several of those nice target guns.

Your correct concerning the development of the 45ACP from the military's experience in the Philippines insurrection with the 38 Long Colt.

The 9mm and 40 S&W far exceed anything the 38 Long Colt ever had.


TR

 

[actionville]

Next door to the shooting saturday night

MD gun laws suck. We all have our hands tied while these guys pounce while walking to your car. I'm wondering if it'll even be legal to carry Mace. I want our lawmakers to come here and experience this dump of a city and tell me why I can't open carry a pistol as I was able to in VA. I guarantee GMR vermin would think twice about robbery if they knew everyone were armed (or could be). As it stands, they know that we are unarmed unless in our houses.

 

[DEEKAYPEE8569]

MD gun laws suck. We all have our hands tied while these guys pounce while walking to your car. I'm wondering if it'll even be legal to carry Mace. I want our lawmakers to come here and experience this dump of a city and tell me why I can't open carry a pistol as I was able to in VA. I guarantee GMR vermin would think twice about robbery if they knew everyone were armed (or could be). As it stands, they know that we are unarmed unless in our houses.

I have said it before; and I'll say it again.....one of the primary reasons we do not have "Shall Issue" in Maryland is because of our proximity to D.C.. I still feel that THAT is the only real reason. It's just that the lawmakers have not come out and admitted it. Also, I think if "Shall Issue" was passed in MD, a lot of the crap you hear in the news about robberies, carjackings, muggings, would stop. WHY? Because the degenerates that commit these crimes MIGHT think twice, 'Hmmm.....this guy MIGHT shoot my a**.' 'I can't tell if he has a gun or not.' Put the fear O' God into these pukes, then Maryland won't be one of the states that ranks highest in violent crimes.

I use Tennessee as an example again; Tennessee is a "Shall Issue" state; and not JUST because it is The South; but most of the folks down there are some of the moest polite you'd ever want to meet. Sure, you hear about the occasional attempted robbery in a gorcery store parking lot, or something like that; but within the same story you hear that the punk(s) never made it to the hospital.

I say, make Maryland a "Shall Issue" state and just watch the crime rate plummet.

Now.....lemme climb down from this soapbox and turn off my megaphone.

 

[desertrat]

I have said it before; and I'll say it again.....one of the primary reasons we do not have "Shall Issue" in Maryland is because of our proximity to D.C.. I still feel that THAT is the only real reason. It's just that the lawmakers have not come out and admitted it. Also, I think if "Shall Issue" was passed in MD, a lot of the crap you hear in the news about robberies, carjackings, muggings, would stop. WHY? Because the degenerates that commit these crimes MIGHT think twice, 'Hmmm.....this guy MIGHT shoot my a**.' 'I can't tell if he has a gun or not.' Put the fear O' God into these pukes, then Maryland won't be one of the states that ranks highest in violent crimes.

I use Tennessee as an example again; Tennessee is a "Shall Issue" state; and not JUST because it is The South; but most of the folks down there are some of the moest polite you'd ever want to meet. Sure, you hear about the occasional attempted robbery in a gorcery store parking lot, or something like that; but within the same story you hear that the punk(s) never made it to the hospital.

I say, make Maryland a "Shall Issue" state and just watch the crime rate plummet.

Now.....lemme climb down from this soapbox and turn of my megaphone.

And it is by this logic that VA is a shall issue state.

 

[itsbob]

Wow...a caliber war on the Southern Maryland
After all is said and done, it's not about caliber but about load selection and shot placement. Over penetration is a function of bullet expansion, not speed. FMJ does not expand, quality HP's do.

You're exaclty right, and in an apples to apples comparison..

ie FMJ to FMJ, or Core Lokt to Core Lokt.. .45 comes out ahead EVERY time.

The only time research has proven 9mm had an advantage is when they compared an "advanced" 9mm round with a traditional or ball .45 round.

Other tests cite Law Enforcement Shoot outs and vehicles. Since none of us law abiding citizens in MD can carry, I don't think cars enter the equation for Home Defense in MD. (but I do agree, and with experience, that a .45 round will NOT penetrate a car door.)

Similar ammo to similar ammo, .45 in my opinion is a much superior round when you have a tweaked out methhead with a knife or gun running at you down the hallway in your house.

Of course my first choice is the 12 gauge, but comparing a .45 to a shotgun would be like comparing a 9mm with superior ammo to a .45 ball.

I also agree that I'd take the .40 over a 9mm..

 

[libertytyranny]

Drugs? St. Mary's County doesn't have a drug problem (lol). I have looked in to the growing problem with teen crime for some time now. The County loves to tell me that poverty is behind teen crime. No programs to put young people on the right road. Our public schools are considering spending millions on artifical turf at our 3 high schools when this money could be better spent to develop programs to keep kids from (drugs) and out of trouble. The most horrible fact is that once young people go deep down the wrong road, they rarely find a way to turn around. Many just go deeper with no end of the bumpy road they are on until the have an incident that results in their death by the time they reach their early 20s. It's a matter of time until our fantastic law enforcement folks get these idiots. When they eventually end up in jail, less than 5% go off of the drugs they are on. Sometimes, while in jail, they talk to others, and spread their method of crime to others, or take advantage of the weight room which I forgot to mention in my last thread, that will help them get stronger until they get out. That way they can run faster from the police (but not the K-9) and could be in better shape than some of our more "hefty" Deputies. Therefore, our "programs" that are in place for the inmates actually "ENDANGER" our police officers!!

St. Mary's, and to an even greater extent Calvert has a big Prescription narcotics and crack problem.

And we don't need "programs" in the schools to keep kids "on the right road." Schools are not meant to raise children or keep them on any path. They are there to teach them the basics and prepare them for college or a trade. End of story. It is that exact attitude that the schools should make kids into responsible citizens that allows so many parents to abdicate their duties. Drug programs like DARE are consistantly shown to be money pits with NO results.

As for jails, they are useless and need to be redone. First off the absolute LEAST effective way to punish is to start with a small punishment and increase in intensity..proven over and over this only leads to desensitization and "career criminals." What we need is serious punishment...FIRST serious offense. They need to understand jail is punishment. Hard labor, chain gangs, serious community service. We pay for them to live while they are punished, they need to pay that back...in a way that makes them NEVER want to come back. Instead they basically get a vacation with all their BFFs and dont have to do anything all day..except occasionally some crappy prison job emptying trash. Most don't have good parents to guide them, so some programs which teach life skills (paying bills, getting a job, how to secure school funding, trade schools, etc) can be useful. But we have to stop thinking that everyone can be rehabilitated and lock up the ####ers who can't function in real life, and focus on the ones that need a little help.

 

[Penn]

Fox News is currently running a segment on Amy Bishop, the killer professor, at the Alabama University, days ago. They are saying she recently purchased a 9mm handgun, practiced with it at a shooting range, and it is the firearm she used to kill her fellow professors.

Extremely lethal, wouldn't you say?

 

[itsbob]

Fox News is currently running a segment on Amy Bishop, the killer professor, at the Alabama University, days ago. They are saying she recently purchased a 9mm handgun, practiced with it at a shooting range, and it is the firearm she used to kill her fellow professors.

Extremely lethal, wouldn't you say?

No, 1/2 of her victims lived.. Thank God she chose the 9mm or there would be 3 other dead people..

You use what you want, don't really care if you survive a home invasion or not.


MY choice to stop the drug altered felon in my house and to keep him/her away from my family is the .45.

 

[itsbob]

St. Mary's, and to an even greater extent Calvert has a big Prescription narcotics and crack problem.

And we don't need "programs" in the schools to keep kids "on the right road." Schools are not meant to raise children or keep them on any path. They are there to teach them the basics and prepare them for college or a trade. End of story. It is that exact attitude that the schools should make kids into responsible citizens that allows so many parents to abdicate their duties. Drug programs like DARE are consistantly shown to be money pits with NO results.

As for jails, they are useless and need to be redone. First off the absolute LEAST effective way to punish is to start with a small punishment and increase in intensity..proven over and over this only leads to desensitization and "career criminals." What we need is serious punishment...FIRST serious offense. They need to understand jail is punishment. Hard labor, chain gangs, serious community service. We pay for them to live while they are punished, they need to pay that back...in a way that makes them NEVER want to come back. Instead they basically get a vacation with all their BFFs and dont have to do anything all day..except occasionally some crappy prison job emptying trash. Most don't have good parents to guide them, so some programs which teach life skills (paying bills, getting a job, how to secure school funding, trade schools, etc) can be useful. But we have to stop thinking that everyone can be rehabilitated and lock up the ####ers who can't function in real life, and focus on the ones that need a little help.

 

[Penn]

No, 1/2 of her victims lived.. Thank God she chose the 9mm or there would be 3 other dead people..

You use what you want, don't really care if you survive a home invasion or not.


MY choice to stop the drug altered felon in my house and to keep him/her away from my family is the .45.

Which news program are you reading/watching? THIS is from Fox News:

The husband of an Alabama professor accused of fatally shooting three colleagues said that the couple went to a shooting range recently, but that he didn't know where she got the gun she used for practice.


Yes, there were 2 others shot as well, and they are in critical condition.
You stay with yours, because I do not care if you survive a home invasion or not. Prayers to your wife and child, however.

 

[DEEKAYPEE8569]

And it is by this logic that VA is a shall issue state.

Okay......(???) What's your point? :shrug: I am talking about Maryland.
Just look at a map from one of those 2A supporting websites. EVERY state around us is "Shall Issue." ( PA, WV, VA [and] DE too). I think.

 

[TurboK9]

Bob,

My home defense weapon is a 12GA Mossberg 500 Persuader w/ collapsable pistol grip stock, reflex sight, and an 8 round extended magazine (loaded thusly... 00/slug/00/slug/00/slug/00/slug.

Enough stopping power?

I love the .45 but I can't carry one here so I figured I'd save some money and up my oomph...

 

[Penn]

Bob,

My home defense weapon is a 12GA Mossberg 500 Persuader w/ collapsable pistol grip stock, reflex sight, and an 8 round extended magazine (loaded thusly... 00/slug/00/slug/00/slug/00/slug.

Enough stopping power?

I love the .45 but I can't carry one here so I figured I'd save some money and up my oomph...

Is that a pump, or a semi-automatic shotgun? Double 00 and slugs SHOULD do you well! and do somebody in, nicely......

 

[itsbob]

Bob,

My home defense weapon is a 12GA Mossberg 500 Persuader w/ collapsable pistol grip stock, reflex sight, and an 8 round extended magazine (loaded thusly... 00/slug/00/slug/00/slug/00/slug.

Enough stopping power?

I love the .45 but I can't carry one here so I figured I'd save some money and up my oomph...

I've got the same one.. And agree best choice for home defense.. Stopping power without having to worry about killing your neighbor.

 

[TurboK9]

I've got the same one.. And agree best choice for home defense.. Stopping power without having to worry about killing your neighbor.

And the 'shunk-chunk' is the ultimate audial (is that a word?) deterrent.

 

[edinsomd]

Bob, I have 100 rounds of 9mm, for my German Luger(1938), that were, or are considered "hot loads", or so I was informed.(Handloads)

A larger grain bullet, "soft tip", and a few more grains of powder in the shell casing. Not what you can buy off the shelf at the Tackle Box.

Is is a lethal firearm, for home defense, in your opinion?

Throw them away, or at least DO NOT fire them through an antique firearm, and DO NOT use them for self defense. For safety and legal reasons use only factory loads appropriate for your firearms- in a civil suit a lawyer can make a case against your "custom made man-killer rounds".

 

[edinsomd]

And the 'shunk-chunk' is the ultimate audial (is that a word?) deterrent.

Bull****. Firstly, the thug may not know the sound, or may be too far gone on his drug of choice to care. Secondly, you've just given away your position for no tactical gain. My shottie is racked and on safe- they'll never hear me select "fire". Or anything else, for that matter.

 

[Penn]

Throw them away, or at least DO NOT fire them through an antique firearm, and DO NOT use them for self defense. For safety and legal reasons use only factory loads appropriate for your firearms- in a civil suit a lawyer can make a case against your "custom made man-killer rounds".

Did you get my PM?

 

[TurboK9]

Bull****. Firstly, the thug may not know the sound, or may be too far gone on his drug of choice to care. Secondly, you've just given away your position for no tactical gain. My shottie is racked and on safe- they'll never hear me select "fire". Or anything else, for that matter.

Yeahhhh.... A thug who doesn't know that sound? Are you serious???

My GRANDMOTHER knows that sound.

Give away my position? In my own home? In the darK? By racking my slide? I think not. Look at my AV. If a stranger is in my home, it ain't gonna be quiet, LOL.

Thirdly, this is a message forum, and not everything said here is a verbatim outlay of 'what if' planning...

 

[RoseRed]

Throw them away, or at least DO NOT fire them through an antique firearm, and DO NOT use them for self defense. For safety and legal reasons use only factory loads appropriate for your firearms- in a civil suit a lawyer can make a case against your "custom made man-killer rounds".

Could they explode in his hand?