Authority--for discussion and Protestant feedback
- Thread starter onel0126
- Start date
Zguy28
New Member
Did not have time to read the whole thing (it was long), and my time is short as usual, but these questions kept going through my head:
What would the Apostles have thought of the church during Cyprian's time? Would they have been surprised how different it may have been?
What would the Apostles and Cyprian thought of the Reformation and Reformation-era Catholic church? Or the modern church?
Would they be surprised, shocked, etc. by the doctrines and practices of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and/or the Eastern Orthodox?
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works, but my view is that although the many denominations and sects, etc., refer to themselves as "churches," there really is only one church - that which Christ Himself established, the body of believers for whom He shed His blood and rose again in triumph. It is because of this that I get impatient with the constant doctrinal bickering which graphically symbolizes the needless and distressing divisions within the body of believers. And that's why I rarely post in "Religion."
There really is only one Church - the body of believers whom Christ Himself identified and who identify themselves with Him, and anyone who would establish another church at the same level as that which Christ has established, is tragically deceived.
Want to squabble about which "church" came first? One word of caution: Remember, Christ said that the first shall be last and the last first. We take too much on ourselves and presume too much when we declare sovereignty or divinity or authority. There is One who has all authority, and He is the head of the church (SINGULAR).
There really is only one Church - the body of believers whom Christ Himself identified and who identify themselves with Him, and anyone who would establish another church at the same level as that which Christ has established, is tragically deceived.
Want to squabble about which "church" came first? One word of caution: Remember, Christ said that the first shall be last and the last first. We take too much on ourselves and presume too much when we declare sovereignty or divinity or authority. There is One who has all authority, and He is the head of the church (SINGULAR).
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Seen and heard this argument many, many times. Without fail it ALWAYS comes from someone who identifies themselves as a non-denominational, bible-only, non Sunday service attending believer. Fair assessment?
Zguy28
New Member
I've heard it from many who do not fit your description.
The danger in it is that Arians, Montanists, etc. also believe this is the case.
When I read the Apostles writings on primary doctrines, in good conscience, I strive to be in line with them. If something I believe doesn't match up with them, I adjust, not them. That's what evangelical faith is all about. Going back to the Apostles and the doctrines laid out in "the teaching" (1 Tim) AKA the New Testament.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
So do you agree with railroads assertions?
Zguy28
New Member
I agree with the general statement that Christ created one church which is described by the Apostles in the New Testament, and which adheres to "the teaching" as outlined by them. And I do not view Christ as some sort of mystical idea as your article implies either. He's as real to me as you are.
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
The article was long. I don't know how anyone can believe a historical Christ and not acknowledge His deity that accompanied him throughout His life on earth, the many miracles witnessed by untold thousands.
Christ is the church, and believing Christians are member of His family. The Apostles in the Acts set the framework of the first churches, or gatherings of believers, following what Christ taught them. The next four or five decades planted similar churches throughout the Med region, and Paul visited many of them in his letters, correcting doctrinal error and giving exhortations to the believers to stand fast in the ways and teachings of Christ, not men.
Last edited:
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
So are you saying we should apply Jesus's intent (through inspired writings by Paul and others) to our terminology? I think that is what you mean, I think? Ya think?
If so, I would have to agree. Jesus made no bones about the simplicity of the Gospel - Confess the Lord with your mouth (speak out), and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, and you will be saved. (paraphrased from Rom 10:9)
Simple, really.
If salvation is that simple (which it is), then why cannot formation of local churches based on the teachings of the Bible be as simple?
I personally believe that Romans 10:9 is the basic, fundamental, biblical foundation of personal salvation.
Not real complicated, except that man has to mess simplicity up just to prove a - errrrr - point of some humanistic sort?.
The formations of local churches to preach that Gospel would logically follow.
Leave man out of it. Figure God into your life, don't try to figure Him out. Trying to figure Him out is a losing proposition. Every time, human.
Pretty simple.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
How beautifully simplistic....not. Woohoo everyone is their own pope!
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
You need a pope? A human? Here we go - again.
Sad for you. I only need a conscience.
I only need a Savior.
By saying you need a pope, or anyone else, is just dissing God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, by saying they are not enough.
WooHoo, and .
Last edited:
onel0126
Bead mumbler
You need a pope? A human? Here we go - again. Sad for you. I only need a conscience. I only need a Savior. By saying you need a pope, or anyone else, is just dissing God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, by saying they are not enough. WooHoo, and .
My point was this....thirty some odd thousand Protestant denominations. Why--no translator in chief. Let's do this again. You and zguy are Protestant. He is a Calvinist and will point to scripture to back his thinking. You don't believe in the elect and will point to scripture to back up your case. Hence, scripture is left up to individuals to figure it out as they go. What has this lead to? Whole denominations playing with snakes
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Of course through Christ! So b23, what of Calvinism?
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Calvanism and I agree on many issues, but not all. Ask John MacCarthur or Zguy about that.
This is not between other Protestants, but between catholic and non-catholic, right?
Your original OP was about differences in church structure/set up, right? Stay on topic, boy.
onel0126
Bead mumbler
Please answer this question. If Luther accomplished what was needed--to protest the evil Catholics and break away to set things right, why isn't it just Catholics and Lutherans--simply put why aren't you, zguy, stone thrower, etc Lutheran?
b23hqb
Well-Known Member
Simply put - believe in what the bible preaches. Not what man says.
See you in eternity, but most probably not, dude/dudette.
Your choice.
You come across as the kind of person who sticks fingers in the ears and yells "lalalalalalalala" loud and long. You don't really take the care too often to actually hear what folks are saying, do you?
Zguy28
New Member
I tend to agree, but probably for different reasons.
Church = people
Religion = body of beliefs that are practiced because they are part of who we are as the church.
That does not mean their is no Christian religion. I'm a firm believer in religion, and of accountability for it, but also most especially James 1:27 type religion.