Baptism Thread

Starman3000m

New Member
libby said:
Okay, Starman, now you're changing the subject again; you want to get into baptism and the reasons for?
We can get into this on another thread.

Here goes. A Catholic priest told my (former Catholic) boss that if his baby daughter was not baptized into the Catholic Church she was going to Hell! Apparently, Catholic families believe they are secure from Hell as long as they are baptized into the Catholic Church and immersed in water or sprinkled by a priest. Is that True?

On the other hand: Mormons believe that only the water baptism by the LDS church is the "saving one" that helps them escape hell and they are so intent on this belief that they go through great lengths to baptize dead friends and family by proxy who had not been LDS members.

The Holy Bible speaks of a different "Baptism" which is the baptism of the Holy Spirit whereby one becomes born-again and Jesus said that unless one is born again one cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
(John 3:3-8)

Whom do you believe?
 
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libby

New Member
And clearly you do not understand the definition of infallibility.
I'll try to answer post #1 before I leave.
 

Starman3000m

New Member
And clearly you do not understand the definition of infallibility.
I'll try to answer post #1 before I leave.

OK But please also comment on the "baptism" that we are speaking of - the one that the Catholic priest told my boss: that his daughter was going to Hell unless she was baptized into the RCC faith.
 

libby

New Member
A Catholic priest told my (former Catholic) boss that if his baby daughter was not baptized into the Catholic Church she was going to Hell! Apparently, Catholic families believe they are secure from Hell as long as they are baptized into the Catholic Church and immersed in water or sprinkled by a priest. Is that True?

From the CCC 846, "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Note that it must be a conscious rejection by someone who "knows" it to be True. So, this would not apply to those who either have never heard the Gospel, or who do not believe in the CC for some other reason. For example, on another thread I mentioned victims of sexual abuse. Do you or IT think God holds such a victim "resposible" for leaving the CC, when such an abominable crime was committed against them?

I'll try to cite the CCC later on this next point, but the CC recognizes as validly baptized any person/infant who is baptized with water, "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", regardless of who/what denomination administers the baptism.
The CCC goes on to say, "those who...seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His Will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation."

So, your friend's priest was wrong on many levels. Or, someone is telling an inflammatory tale to slam the Church. I've never met or heard of (in real life as opposed to anonymous forums) a priest that would say that an unbaptized infant would go to hell.
 

Starman3000m

New Member
From the CCC 846, "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

Note that it must be a conscious rejection by someone who "knows" it to be True. So, this would not apply to those who either have never heard the Gospel, or who do not believe in the CC for some other reason. For example, on another thread I mentioned victims of sexual abuse. Do you or IT think God holds such a victim "resposible" for leaving the CC, when such an abominable crime was committed against them?

I'll try to cite the CCC later on this next point, but the CC recognizes as validly baptized any person/infant who is baptized with water, "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit", regardless of who/what denomination administers the baptism.
The CCC goes on to say, "those who...seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do His Will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation."

So, your friend's priest was wrong on many levels. Or, someone is telling an inflammatory tale to slam the Church. I've never met or heard of (in real life as opposed to anonymous forums) a priest that would say that an unbaptized infant would go to hell.

According to my boss (former Catholic) the priest was wrong on many levels as he believes the RCC Church to be wrong on many levels. He should know, he was an altar boy and saw first hand many "behind doors" shenanigans that
priests were involved in. That is what caused him to not try to defend or make excuses for the Church but to question the sincerity of its church leaders - and that is why he left the church.

Another story he recounts is being slapped on his hand by the Nuns who were his teachers because my boss was left handed. They forced him to write with his right hand because, according to the painting in the Sistine Chapel, "God is right handed".
 

Starman3000m

New Member
The baptism cleanses the taint of the "Original Sin" and belief that it is required for salvation.

It does not protect you from Hell, you can still go there based on how you live your life.

Hmm...Which baptism are you speaking of that has that power? Water baptism or Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
 

Starman3000m

New Member

Fair enough. That's exercising your free-will to reject anything that is told to you. Not everyone believed what Jesus taught and He was rejected by many when He proclaimed that He was the Way, The Truth and The Life and no man can come unto the Father except through Him. (John 14:6)

Every person who was warned by Jesus had a choice to make on what to believe. Either Jesus was telling the Truth or He was a liar. What is your belief?
 

Starman3000m

New Member
Are you Jack Chick? :confused:

If you are asking me, specifically in a joking way or even in a serious way, I will answer you truthfully. No, I am not Jack Chick; I am Mike Ramirez, aka Starman3000m, who spent my early years studying various "religions" in search for the Truth of God's Plan of Salvation. It took a Divine Intervention of God's Holy Spirit to save my soul and marriage to my then Atheist wife, Diane, and at the same show us that Jesus Christ was/is truly the Divine Son of God and Saviour of mankind. Prior to that I had no real respect for Jesus' Authority in the capacity of being our Saviour. I had believed that just "trying to be good" in this life was all it takes to be right with God and that He could outweigh my good from my bad. However, the Holy Bible states otherwise and we are told that all have fallen short of the Glory of God and are in need of a Saviour.

That is the big difference between "religions" that claim they can save a person which is contrary to what the Holy Bible states that only faith in the Atoning Blood of Jesus Christ is what God accepts and without that faith a person's sins cannot be forgiven. You may have seen the excerpt from the following Bible text:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:14-18)

and the faith is this:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1)

That's the message, plain and simple. Unfortunately, religions distort that message in order to have control over the masses! (no pun intended)

There is true Salvation and True Freedom in placing one's faith in Jesus as the Holy Bible teaches and that is what brings Freedom of Forgiveness and Freedom from "religious ideologies" that distort the Truth for their own advantage.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:36)
 

libby

New Member
Libby, many catholics believe this. Not that the baptism protects you from going to hell (it doesnt) but without a baptism you still carry the "Original Sin" and without the cleansing (from the baptism) you cant enter Heaven.

I don't care "what Catholics believe". I care what the Catholic Church teaches.
 

libby

New Member
Did you ever hear about "purgatory"? The place you "go to" if you die in the state of "venial sin" and not "mortal sin"!!

Yup, and it makes complete sense to me.

Would you like to play the game in which you and I bat Scripture back and forth at each other?
 

Starman3000m

New Member
Yup, and it makes complete sense to me.

Would you like to play the game in which you and I bat Scripture back and forth at each other?

libby, if "purgatory" is true, then there would have been no reason for Jesus to have come to earth to give His Life as a ransom and go through the crucifixion. In other words, "purgatory" says you go into a type of "spirtual waiting room" in order get things right. The Holy Bible states:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:27-28)
That means that judgment upon the decision that one makes during his/her lifetime on this earth happens immediately after one's death. In other words - there is no second chance in what the RCC claims is "purgatory".

Therefore:

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: ( For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:5-8)

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (2 Corinthians 5:17-18)

The Holy Bible is saying that we have the confidence of already being reconciled with God through our faith in Christ. Purgatory does not come into consideration, according to the text and such claim is only another piece of religious misinformation that causes people to be misled away from God's Truth.
 

libby

New Member
Okay, my ball.
However, instead of using Paul, I'm going to use Jesus' own words, in the Gospel. Then, perhaps, we can view Paul's words in light of Jesus', as opposed to seeing Jesus' words in Paul's light.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Welcome to Scripture Catholic - Providing Scriptural Evidence for the Teachings of the Catholic Faith



Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
 

Starman3000m

New Member
Okay, my ball.
However, instead of using Paul, I'm going to use Jesus' own words, in the Gospel. Then, perhaps, we can view Paul's words in light of Jesus', as opposed to seeing Jesus' words in Paul's light.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Welcome to Scripture Catholic - Providing Scriptural Evidence for the Teachings of the Catholic Faith



Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

Read carefully:

Matthew12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Speaking personal blasphemy against Jesus, as the scribes and Pharisees did during His time was forgiveable by Jesus; He even forgave them for crucifying Him. However, the eternal decision of rejecting the call to Salvation that only comes through the revelation of The Holy Spirit during a person's lifetime here on earth cannot be forgiven. They have willfully decided to reject the Truth and thus seal their fate in the world to come.

People who during their lifetime on earth willingly and with a repentant heart respond to the Holy Spirit's prompting of God's Plan of Salvation through Jesus receive eternal salvation that is sealed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Here is what the Holy Bible states and it is in your Bible as well:

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:29-32)

The RCC teaching of "purgatory" is wrong as it gives the false sense of feeling for a person to believe, "Oh, well, if I couldn't make it right in my lifetime, I'll get another chance in the spiritual waiting area until I get it right."

Purgatory is a false teaching and is not what Jesus taught at all. You even cited a portion where once a person is dead they cannot make it back across the Great Spiritual Divide as told in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man who went to hell. Here it is in text:

Luke, Chapter 16:

19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
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libby

New Member
The RCC teaching of "purgatory" is wrong as it gives the false sense of feeling for a person to believe, "Oh, well, if I couldn't make it right in my lifetime, I'll get another chance in the spiritual waiting area until I get it right."


So, here you go, just like IT does. You both put forth what you'd like people to think the church teaches, and then go shooting it full of holes. However, if you had any desire for truthful discourse, you'd learn what is taught and why.

Did you even read the explanations for the examples cited?
This response from you,
You even cited a portion where once a person is dead they cannot make it back across the Great Spiritual Divide as told in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man who went to hell.

has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make. Note that the rich man is in torment, yet he worries about his brothers. People is hell have no compassion towards mankind; they are souls without love.
Additionally, he is speaking to Abraham, who doubtful has a chat with souls in hell; judgement has been made and it is over.
This passage is indicative of a third "state of being". This rich man is in neither Heaven, nor Hell. If you insist that he is, I would like you to explain the few points I have put forth in your own words. As I said in the other thread, I would appreciate it if you would not just copy and paste Scripture. Contrary to common belief, there are some Catholics who know and love the Bible. I don't need a lesson.

One last point. In the OT there was Sheol, the waiting place of the dead, it was neither Heaven nor Hell.
I am unaware of anywhere in the Bible that indicates that Sheol was done away with. So, at best, it proves that there is still a "waiting place" for the righteous dead. At worst, it proves that there certainly can be a third "option".
 
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