Why can't we all disagree this respectfully? PsyOps, I appreciate that while you don't agree with Catholic teaching, you seem to be willing to say it is not groundless.
This is an example of constructive, Christian dialogue.
Baptism Thread
- Thread starter Starman3000m
- Start date
Why can't we all disagree this respectfully? PsyOps, I appreciate that while you don't agree with Catholic teaching, you seem to be willing to say it is not groundless.
This is an example of constructive, Christian dialogue.
PsyOps
Pixelated
As I understand the Catholic belief of purgatory, there are some that fall slightly short of making it to heaven and haven’t quite done badly enough to go to hell. So they go to a place where their souls can be purified in preparation for judgment and God’s final decision about their destination. I have yet to find anything in the Bible that supports this. However, the Bible speaks of the dead being held in a place until God raises them up to be judged. The bible does not refer to this as purgatory. It’s not specific enough to discount the Catholic belief in purgatory but it’s not enough to convince me that it is.
We get in these theological discussions mostly for the betterment of our understanding of God’s Word, but they tend to distract from the fundamental requirement that God set before us for our salvation. It’s quite simply… Believe in Christ and you are saved. Not “believe in Christ and be baptized and you will be saved”. Not “Not believe in Christ and go to confession and you will be saved”. Not “believe in Christ and speak in tongues and you will be saved.” Not “believe in Christ and handle poisonous snakes and you will be saved”. And the word “believe” is not a simple acknowledgement that Christ exists. The word “believe”, as translated from the original Greek, means to surrender; to give up everything to follow Christ’s teachings. That means you will be compelled to stop sinning and live in daily prayer for strength not to sin. It means you will hold no regard towards material things even though you know you need them to live. It means you will do all that is right in the eyes of God and be baptized and walk (as best you can) in a Christ-like manner. All the other things: Being a member of a specific church, Rosary beads, crosses, statues of various Christian figures, confessionals, speaking in tongues, playing with poisonous snakes, flailing your arms and singing in a loud voice… if these things bring you closer to God I think that is great. But they are not required in order to be saved. And, they certainly are determining factors.
I have serious problems with ALL the churches. Some mislead people into believing that theirs is THE only church to heaven. Others are caught up in rituals and a high regard for statues and other figures (idols). Others are caught up in believing Pentecostal practices are required to obtain eternal life. Others are consumed with money. And then there are others that use their churches as a front to commit heinous crimes against our children. In today’s world how do you come to trust any of them? Jesus warned us of these things. Yet we argue about who’s wrong and right in these forums. We’ve lost our focus. It’s Christ. Simple as that.
Sorry for the long diatribe.
Starman3000m
New Member
Excellent PsyOps. I agree 100% for you have proclaimed the Truth that Jesus taught; faith, repentance and salvation that comes through Him alone by the Grace of God and not by adhering to man-made religious tenets that are prevalent in all denominations who claim their church is the only true church.
If you have ever noticed in the posts by ItalianScallion, 2A and mine, we have never solicited anyone to be a member of the church we attend; we have pointed out that Salvation is through being born into the family of God through faith in Christ and not having to be a member of those denominations that claim their specific church denomination is the one to belong to. Sure, I may get a bit carried away with cut & paste Bible verses, but, hey, those are the words written in the Bible - not my words, and I do so to defend the faith not in any church but in Christ alone.
BTW: The true definition of "Catholic" (Not RCC) means Universal and it is the Universal body of believers who have surrendered their life to Christ. They individually begin a new spiritual walk as born-again believers as you described. This Universal body of believers represent the True Spiritual Church that is sealed unto Salvation through the Holy Spirit. This is the church that Jesus will come for.
Conclusion: God's Truth is the most simple message ever, but it has been muddied up and gone off track through religious power-struggles.
And for those who enjoy sports: This simple message of Salvation is usually seen in end-zone camera shots during football season:
JOHN 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The "concept" of purgatory most certainly can be found. So can the "concept" of the Trinity. Neither is explicitly stated, and neither word, purgatory nor trinity, will be found; but that doesn't effect the Truth of their existence.
Besides, the Holy Spirit leads me in all Truth. If you've got a problem with Truth, take it up with God! (sound familiar?) It's in my Bible, and you'll find it in your as well...
Not worth arguing about. If it makes you feel good, go for it. I personally don't think it is Truth and neither did Martin Luther. Purgatory was one of the things he objected to. Seems the concept did not exits in the Catholic church until Rome was selling indulgences to pay for building St. Peter's Basilica. But that is history and has nothing to do with faith. Believe in what you will.
As for the souls that are risen for the judgment, I read that they were dead and raised from the grave for final judgment as opposed to the saints which is just another name for Christians in the Bible which are immediately taken to God's kingdom. Recall the thief on the cross; ""Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." - Luke 23:43.
But again, true or not, it really does not matter except to those that are trying to earn their way into heaven. I'm not. Jesus paid a price I can never repay; it is free for the acceptance, and it is mine through God's grace and grace alone. I can do nothing extra; I am forgiven. I live, as God gives me the ability, loving and obeying God, not because I can earn salvation; that is already mine, but because I love Him because He first loved me.
ItalianScallion
Harley Rider
Just proves He wasn't Catholic...
One point you folks are missing is that this is a baptism thread......but since they always get "hijacked", let's roll!The "concept" of purgatory most certainly can be found. So can the "concept" of the Trinity. Neither is explicitly stated, and neither word, purgatory nor trinity, will be found; but that doesn't effect the Truth of their existence.
Besides, the Holy Spirit leads me in all Truth. If you've got a problem with Truth, take it up with God! (sound familiar?) It's in my Bible, and you'll find it in your as well...
Libbster, you're right about the word Trinity but not about "Purgy".
The point I see here that needs to be made is that there is a place that the dead go, but not the place that the RCC teaches about.(Imagine that?)
I'm speaking of the dead spirits or souls, not their bodies. Bodies go into the graves, (sheol) or the sea, etc.
The RCC says there are some people who will go to Heaven but need some "cleansing" work, so they must go to purgatory first. They teach that they can be prayed out of there by people who love them.
In actuality, the place Christians believe in is Hades. Similar to Hell but NOT Hell. (Rev 20 v14 - you can't cast Hell into Hell). The rich man in Luke 16 was in Hades. People who die without Christ go to Hades to await their judgment day. After the judgment day, they are thrown into Hell.
Revelation 20 v 13-15:
"The sea gave up the dead that were in it and death and HADES gave up the dead that were in them.....Then death and HADES were cast into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire".
Hades is the place where the lost have always gone when they died BUT they can NOT be prayed out of it. That's where the RCC is wrong and dangerously misleading to people. It gives them the false hope that they can be saved after they die.
Believers go straight to Heaven when they die today. Before Christ died, believers went to a place called "Abraham's side" because direct access to Heaven was not possible until Christ finished His work here.
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PsyOps
Pixelated
Not worth arguing about, then you go on and provide your argument.
I’m not calling it purgatory. Purgatory assumes a place of peace, healing and redemption (second chances). Rev. 20 says nothing about this. In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it say this. All I am saying is that chapter refers to a place where the dead are kept until God raises them up to be judged. I don’t call it purgatory or any other name. I have no idea what it is, but Rev 20 says it exists. So you can gather from this that some will die, go to this place – where they are dead – and be called back up to be judged.
I’ve already stipulated over and over where I stand on salvation. This whole discussion is interesting but is more a distraction from what God demands from us to be saved. So it has nothing to do with what makes me feel good. It is what it is. I leave these things up to God.
Not worth arguing about, then you go on and provide your argument.
If that is the way you see it, OK. I thought I was just explaining my position, but I can see that could be construed to be an argument.
PsyOps
Pixelated
Are you still arguing with me?
No.
just so ya' know
Hey IT,
I just read your most recent post. Company arrived Thurs. evening and remains through this coming weekend. If I get the chance to look into your position and further defend my faith, I will certainly do so.
In the meantime, I'll keep peeking in on you guys when my visitors are otherwise occupied.
Hey IT,
I just read your most recent post. Company arrived Thurs. evening and remains through this coming weekend. If I get the chance to look into your position and further defend my faith, I will certainly do so.
In the meantime, I'll keep peeking in on you guys when my visitors are otherwise occupied.
Starman3000m
New Member
From Post #6
(Updated Answer)
libby, the reality is that God will hold the RCC leadership all the way to the top responsible for any abuse that caused anyone to lose faith in seeking Christ as Saviour! This goes for misguided leadership of any religious organization who may claim to be Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses and all other cults who prey (not pray) on their congregants.
The fact of the matter is that for many years the RCC knew exactly what was going on with such abuses and instead of firing the priests the CC would assign them to another parish where the predator priests continued in their wayward ways.
God will also hold the RCC accountable for all the misguided religious teachings that have held parishioners in bondage in order to retain them as members.
As far as what happens to the victims who leave the Catholic denomination after being abused, do you really think that they cannot find Salvation outside of the RCC as the popes have declared? I am sure that there are numerous testimonies of people who left the RCC, found a more personal and spiritual relationship with Christ as Lord and Saviour and have learned to forgive those who abused them.
As far as my boss is concerned, he still harbours great resentment against Catholicism and specifically the Catholic priest who said his daughter was going to hell if she wasn't baptized into the RCC.
Was the priest right? If not, God will hold that priest responsible for causing my boss and his now grown daughter to lose faith not just in the RCC but most importantly to lose trust in God! I pray for my boss each day and hope that he will one day realize that in order to be saved from hell you do need not to go to church to find Salvation but you do need to go to God.
(Proverbs 8:17) (Jeremiah 29:13) (John 3:14-17) (Matthew 11:27-30)
That is why the RCC leadership all the way to the top will be held responsible for all the abuses that have ever been caused by priests. The worst part is that the RCC knowingly covered up many of these abuses for many years, and in some cases abuse-victims were paid "settlements" in order to avoid the publicity that would embarrass the local CC.
Again, you can defend the RCC as much as you want but please know that all churches that do not represent God's Complete Truth will be held accountable. That is what Jesus warned His followers about - specifically in Matthew Chapter 23.
libby said:
(Updated Answer)
libby, the reality is that God will hold the RCC leadership all the way to the top responsible for any abuse that caused anyone to lose faith in seeking Christ as Saviour! This goes for misguided leadership of any religious organization who may claim to be Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses and all other cults who prey (not pray) on their congregants.
The fact of the matter is that for many years the RCC knew exactly what was going on with such abuses and instead of firing the priests the CC would assign them to another parish where the predator priests continued in their wayward ways.
God will also hold the RCC accountable for all the misguided religious teachings that have held parishioners in bondage in order to retain them as members.
As far as what happens to the victims who leave the Catholic denomination after being abused, do you really think that they cannot find Salvation outside of the RCC as the popes have declared? I am sure that there are numerous testimonies of people who left the RCC, found a more personal and spiritual relationship with Christ as Lord and Saviour and have learned to forgive those who abused them.
As far as my boss is concerned, he still harbours great resentment against Catholicism and specifically the Catholic priest who said his daughter was going to hell if she wasn't baptized into the RCC.
Was the priest right? If not, God will hold that priest responsible for causing my boss and his now grown daughter to lose faith not just in the RCC but most importantly to lose trust in God! I pray for my boss each day and hope that he will one day realize that in order to be saved from hell you do need not to go to church to find Salvation but you do need to go to God.
(Proverbs 8:17) (Jeremiah 29:13) (John 3:14-17) (Matthew 11:27-30)
That is why the RCC leadership all the way to the top will be held responsible for all the abuses that have ever been caused by priests. The worst part is that the RCC knowingly covered up many of these abuses for many years, and in some cases abuse-victims were paid "settlements" in order to avoid the publicity that would embarrass the local CC.
Again, you can defend the RCC as much as you want but please know that all churches that do not represent God's Complete Truth will be held accountable. That is what Jesus warned His followers about - specifically in Matthew Chapter 23.
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You will not catch me defending the priests and bishops who perpetrated these crimes. I categorically agree with everything you are saying, and I'm happy to see that you recognize that this is not just a "Catholic" problem.
FOXNews.com - Sexual Abuse of Minors in Protestant Churches - FOX Fan
As for God holding responsible those who keep people from the faith with their behaviors, once again I agree. I would like to add that those who preach a "you will be damned if you do not..." and turn people off with attitudes such as, "my interpretation is correct...no chance in heck I'm wrong" will face that same judgement.
None are so blind as those who say, "I see."
T
toppick08
Guest
Romans 8:1...There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
all my fellow friends.
Starman3000m
New Member
libby said:
OK. Let's say that the universal claim of "my interpretation is correct...no chance in heck I'm wrong..." goes for 99.9% of every organized denominational religion in this world libby. That still leaves the fact that
There Is Only One Truth!
As stated many times before in many ways, the Holy Bible is all that is needed to teach the Salvation message of God through Christ. It is not a man-made church organization that holds the truth; it is the Universal Truth that Jesus proclaimed:
Jesus said... I Am The Way, The Truth, and The Life: No Man Cometh Unto The Father, But By Me. (John 14:6)
That is the Jesus of The Holy Bible - who grants Salvation through faith in Him alone. However, that Is Not the Jesus that the RCC teaches at all!
- The "Jesus of the RCC" is unable to completely save a person on mere faith alone in this lifetime.
- The "RCC Jesus" needs to cleanse people after they are dead in order to complete the salvation process.
- The "RCC Jesus" cannot save a person who is not "baptized" into the RCC faith.
- The "RCC Jesus" is not necessarily prayed to directly and there are various mediators that a parishioner prays to and places faith with in order to "get a message" to Jesus.
- The "RCC Jesus" has given his powers of exclusivity of Forgiveness over to priests who proclaim forgiveness of sins for those who ask the priest to be forgiven.
- The "RCC Jesus" is believed by the Vatican to literally manifest His Blood and His Flesh when the Eucharist is administered when in the Holy Bible no such claim was ever made as it was only a symbolic gesture for remembrance. So if the bread that Jesus shared with His disciples did not turn to flesh and the wine did not literally become His Blood, how is it that the RCC teaches otherwise?
The RCC along with Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses and all other pseudo-Christian cults all teach another Jesus when compared to the Real Jesus of The Holy Bible - and people follow like sheep:
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.(2 Corinthians 11:4)
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