Baptism Thread

[Starman3000m]

So, here you go, just like IT does. You both put forth what you'd like people to think the church teaches, and then go shooting it full of holes. However, if you had any desire for truthful discourse, you'd learn what is taught and why.

Did you even read the explanations for the examples cited?
This response from you,


has nothing to do with the point I am trying to make. Note that the rich man is in torment, yet he worries about his brothers. People is hell have no compassion towards mankind; they are souls without love.
Additionally, he is speaking to Abraham, who doubtful has a chat with souls in hell; judgement has been made and it is over.
This passage is indicative of a third "state of being". This rich man is in neither Heaven, nor Hell. If you insist that he is, I would like you to explain the few points I have put forth in your own words. As I said in the other thread, I would appreciate it if you would not just copy and paste Scripture. Contrary to common belief, there are some Catholics who know and love the Bible. I don't need a lesson.

One last point. In the OT there was Sheol, the waiting place of the dead, it was neither Heaven nor Hell.
I am unaware of anywhere in the Bible that indicates that Sheol was done away with. So, at best, it proves that there is still a "waiting place" for the righteous dead. At worst, it proves that there certainly can be a third "option".

libby, when people die they either die in a state of being saved because they accepted God's Forgiveness through Christ's Atonement during their lifetime or they die in a state of having refused the Grace and Gift of Salvation that God offered them here on earth during their lifetime. There is no second chance!

Remember that since the Great White Throne Judgment has not taken place - all souls of righteous people go to be with Jesus in His Paradise because they are already saved. As scripture says, to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. (2Cor:5:8) That is a given Promise from the Holy Bible to those who are believers.

Also, since the Great White Throne Judgment has not taken place - all souls of unrighteous people - the ones that rejected God's Offer of Salvation - are in the depths of hell along with Satan's demonic angels who are still awaiting the day when they will be brought to account before God for rejecting Him. Their names have been blotted out of The Book of Life.
(Revelation 3:5) and their souls are reserved unto the day of judgment.
This is on your Bible as well:

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;... (2 Peter 2:4)

That is saying that there is a hell where unsaved people are being held along with the angels that sinned (rejected God and chose to follow Satan in his mutiny against God).

So - if you want the Truth:

- Souls of saved people who die go to be with Jesus in Paradise prior to the Great White Throne Judgment;

- Souls of people who die in an unsaved state and who rejected Christ during their lifetime go to the place where Satan's demons are being reserved unto judgment, as the Holy Bible states. That is the place where the rich man was in the Bible account where he cried out to Abraham for help but could not receive it.

The teaching of "Purgatory" is a false teaching that gives people the false sense of security that if thay can't be saved by being perfect in this lifetime they will have a chance in the intermediate after life.

Not so. Believers are never going to be perfect because we will have transgressed the Laws of God at one point or another in our lives. The Holy Bible states that believers are Justified and Forgiven and counted as "perfect" not through their deeds but what Christ did in giving His Life as a ransom to set them free and be able to receive Eternal Life through Him.

That happens in the here and now - not later.

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Acts 13:39)


Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Romans 5:9)

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:7)

The Great White Throne Judgment: Revelation 20 verses:

11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


This is God's message to people in the here and now:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
(Acts 3:19)

 

[PsyOps]

Why did Jesus wait until he was an adult to be baptized?

 

[Starman3000m]

Why did Jesus wait until he was an adult to be baptized?

Hi PsyOps,

You present a good and fair question: However, contrary to RCC doctrine, infant baptism was not practiced if this is what you are getting at.

As far as Jesus being baptized as an adult, this was part of God's timing whereby Jesus' ministry came into full power and His Divinity revealed to all. As you may know, the water baptism was performed by John the Baptist as ordained by God. It was through the empowering by the Holy Spirit of God that John first began to preach and perform water baptism for the remission of sins. Herein is an excerpt of the event:

Mark, Chapter 1, verses:

1: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2: As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3: The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4: John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5: And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6: And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7: And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8: I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9: And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10: And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
12: And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
13: And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
14: Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

There is much about this in the Holy Bible that you may find interesting to read about.

 

[itsbob]

OK But please also comment on the "baptism" that we are speaking of - the one that the Catholic priest told my boss: that his daughter was going to Hell unless she was baptized into the RCC faith.

Don't you believe the same thing??

Anyone that doesn't believe what you believe, doesn't come unto Christ the way YOU did, that they too will be going to hell??

Arrogant little ass aren't you?? It's sooooo wrong that they say and belileve the SAME things you belive.. just not you or your pastor saying it..

 

[itsbob]

The baptism cleanses the taint

You were an ####### baby??

 

[Starman3000m]

Don't you believe the same thing??

Anyone that doesn't believe what you believe, doesn't come unto Christ the way YOU did, that they too will be going to hell??

Arrogant little ass aren't you?? It's sooooo wrong that they say and belileve the SAME things you belive.. just not you or your pastor saying it..

No, bob, I don't believe the same thing. That should be obvious by now.

Roman Catholicism believes that newborn children of parishioners need to be baptized "sprinkled with water" in order to be part of the RCC. Apparently, to their belief, if a child dies before being baptized into their church that child's soul will go to hell because it was born in sin and remained uncleansed.


The True Baptism that the Holy Bible speaks about is baptism by the Holy Spirit of God. This is what brings about Eternal Salvation to a person who sincerely goes before God in repentance and asks to be forgiven through faith in the Atoning Blood of Christ. Once a person becomes born-again, they will request water baptism as a public indication that they have given their life to Christ and symbolically are dead to sin and rise a new person in Christ. Here, the water baptism is symbolic but the True baptism unto Salvation is the born-again experience of being baptized by the Holy Spirit which Jesus spoke of.

The Holy Bible accounts do not require nor say that a child is to be sprinkled with water because Jesus considered them "innocent" compared to adults who knowingly choose to become sinful and disobedient to God. Thus, if any infant or young child were to die before the age of accountability they will go to heaven anyway according to the teaching of Jesus: Here is one account:

Mark, Chapter 10:

13: And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14: But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15: Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16: And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

Thus, Heaven is filled with infants and young children who, through illness or varying tragedies on earth, have died in an innocent state of being.

The RCC claims that if those children had not been "sprinkled" with the baptism that a priest administers, their soul is in hell.

Who would you believe? The RCC doctrine or what Jesus taught?

 

[libby]

Roman Catholicism believes that newborn children of parishioners need to be baptized "sprinkled with water" in order to be part of the RCC. Apparently, to their belief, if a child dies before being baptized into their church that child's soul will go to hell because it was born in sin and remained uncleansed.

Theologians within the Church have certainly batted around the possibility that an unbaptized child does not go to Heaven. Yes, there are probably some popes, bishops and priests to this day that categorically believe that baptism of an infant is necessary. However, you will find just as many who adhere to what is called "baptism of desire", wherein we trust that God will receive such infants because He knew that the parents intended baptism but did not have the chance, or some other such extraordinary circumstance.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states (and I'm gonna paraphrase since it's not here at my desk) that we can only trust in the mercy of God for their fate.

What you fail to realize, no matter how many times I try to explain, is that we are not compelled to believe every word that comes out of a pope's mouth. He is a man, just like any other. He has erroneous opinions, just as Peter the Apostle did. If he didn't that would make him God, would it not?

Only in very specific circumstances can the pope make a proclaimation that we are compelled to believe, and I think it's only been twice in the last 200 years or so.

 

[itsbob]

No, bob, I don't believe the same thing. That should be obvious by now.

Yes you do, and it's more than obvious by now.

You believe you are right, everyone else is wrong. It's your way, or the highway... straight to hell.

No difference. You're no less arrogant than the Catholics or the Mormons or the Baptists, you just chose to go to a different church and believe you are smarter, and know the REAL truth.

 

[Starman3000m]

What you fail to realize, no matter how many times I try to explain, is that we are not compelled to believe every word that comes out of a pope's mouth. He is a man, just like any other. He has erroneous opinions, just as Peter the Apostle did. If he didn't that would make him God, would it not?

Therein is the erroneous teaching that began Roman Catholicism which proclaims Peter was the "first pope" and that Christianity is founded on Jesus "giving the keys of the Kingdom exclusively to Peter" and not the other apostles.

The scriptural verses of Jesus' conversation have been taken out of context by the RCC by proclaiming that Peter is the "rock" that Jesus spoke of when all along the "rock" Jesus spoke of was Himself and His Word as the Rock of Truth - He (Jesus)being the chief cornerstone to the faith in His Atoning Blood.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.(Romans 9:33)

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
(1 Peter 2:8)

The truth that Peter spoke was that "Jesus was the Son of The Living God" which was revealed to Peter by the Holy Spirit and that Truth is the Foundational Rock of Truth representing Jesus - not Peter.

Mt:16:18: And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

In Biblical context, "and upon this rock" is reference to the same as Jesus saying "this foundational Truth" that Jesus is the Son of God.

So now you know the Truth. The rock is Jesus and the foundational Truth that He brought to mankind.

 

[PsyOps]

Hi PsyOps,

You present a good and fair question: However, contrary to RCC doctrine, infant baptism was not practiced if this is what you are getting at.

I should have put a smilie after my post. It was a rhetorical question. I don't buck any denomination's practice of infant baptism. If that's what they feel will ensure one's path to heaven then fine. There is nothing in the Bible that states baptism is a prerequisite for eternal life. If I accept Christ today and die tomorrow before I have the opportunity to get baptized I’m certain I will see paradise.

Just like the Synagogues and churches of Christ’s day, so many churches today have created rituals and rules to follow in order to obtain eternal life. If people want to follow this and believe they have to DO things to go to heaven then they haven’t learned what The Word says about it:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

It doesn’t say “…so that everyone who believes in him AND BE BAPTIZED might not perish but might have eternal life.”

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

 

[Starman3000m]

I should have put a smilie after my post. It was a rhetorical question. I don't buck any denomination's practice of infant baptism. If that's what they feel will ensure one's path to heaven then fine. There is nothing in the Bible that states baptism is a prerequisite for eternal life. If I accept Christ today and die tomorrow before I have the opportunity to get baptized I’m certain I will see paradise.

Just like the Synagogues and churches of Christ’s day, so many churches today have created rituals and rules to follow in order to obtain eternal life. If people want to follow this and believe they have to DO things to go to heaven then they haven’t learned what The Word says about it:



It doesn’t say “…so that everyone who believes in him AND BE BAPTIZED might not perish but might have eternal life.”

Totally agree!

 

[libby]

So then, for what reason did Jesus change Simon's name to Kephas at that time?

There are other occasions in Scripture in which God changes someone's name, and I'm thinkin' that you'll accept these examples without issue: Abram's name is changed to Abraham. Abram means "exalted father" whereas Abraham means "father of a multitude".

Another example is the change from Jacob "supplanter" to Israel "God prevails".
These are very significant individuals in salvation history, and God ordained for them a very unique and special role. No less, Simon Peter.

Since the Aramaic Kephas means "rock" and "rock" only; it could not possibly ever mean "stone"; that would be evna or lithos.

And we all agree that prior to this event, no one in Jewish history would ever have taken/used the name that meant "rock", because as you said, it was meant only for God.

 

[Starman3000m]

So then, for what reason did Jesus change Simon's name to Kephas at that time?

There are other occasions in Scripture in which God changes someone's name, and I'm thinkin' that you'll accept these examples without issue: Abram's name is changed to Abraham. Abram means "exalted father" whereas Abraham means "father of a multitude".

Another example is the change from Jacob "supplanter" to Israel "God prevails".
These are very significant individuals in salvation history, and God ordained for them a very unique and special role. No less, Simon Peter.

Since the Aramaic Kephas means "rock" and "rock" only; it could not possibly ever mean "stone"; that would be evna or lithos.

And we all agree that prior to this event, no one in Jewish history would ever have taken/used the name that meant "rock", because as you said, it was meant only for God.

Sure Jesus changed the given names but in Peter's case it still does not mean that Peter is the "rock" that the RCC proclaims him to be.

BTW: Does the RCC ever really try to explain the part where Jesus rebuked Peter for challenging Jesus' proclamation of His eminent crucifixion?

Matthew, Ch. 16, verses:

21: From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22: Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23: But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter then goes on to deny Jesus three times (Matthew 26:74-74) and then call for establishing 3 monumental altars in honor of Jesus, Moses and Elias (Matthew 17:1-4) and (Mark 9:2-5)

And when the Roman soldiers come to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter is the one who draws a sword and cuts off the ear of a centurion. : (John 18:10)

The Truth is, All of the Apostles of Jesus were given the responsibility for establishing faith in Jesus by spreading the Gospel Message to all parts of the earth; not Peter exclusively. This mission was given to all of Christ's Disciples by Jesus Himself when He appeared unto them after being resurrected and just before His ascension to Heaven, as recorded in (Acts 1:6-11)

In fact, here is the message and it should be in your Bible as well:

Acts, Ch. 1, verses:

6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Yup, and it makes complete sense to me.

Would you like to play the game in which you and I bat Scripture back and forth at each other?

And what makes sense to man is not necessarily the truth. The concept of purgatory is no where in the Bible.

 

[libby]

BTW: Does the RCC ever really try to explain the part where Jesus rebuked Peter for challenging Jesus' proclamation of His eminent crucifixion?

Sure, but you answer my question first
So then, for what reason did Jesus change Simon's name to Kephas at that time?

Because

Sure Jesus changed the given names but in Peter's case it still does not mean that Peter is the "rock" that the RCC proclaims him to be.

does not tell me what you do think the reason was for the change. As a matter of fact, when you say, "in Peter's case", it sounds like you are rejecting the perfectly consistent and reasonable explanation I have provided, comparing Peter to Abraham and Jacob; which tells me that you simply have a visceral reaction to anything "Catholic", even if it's correct.

 

[libby]

And what makes sense to man is not necessarily the truth. The concept of purgatory is no where in the Bible.

The "concept" of purgatory most certainly can be found. So can the "concept" of the Trinity. Neither is explicitly stated, and neither word, purgatory nor trinity, will be found; but that doesn't effect the Truth of their existence.
Besides, the Holy Spirit leads me in all Truth. If you've got a problem with Truth, take it up with God! (sound familiar?) It's in my Bible, and you'll find it in your as well...

 

[PsyOps]

And what makes sense to man is not necessarily the truth. The concept of purgatory is no where in the Bible.

I think I would disagree to a certain point. Revelation 20 talks about the dead that are called out of their death to be judged. Where are these dead residing? Is there a consciousness to them? Are they souls laying in some sort of limbo? The Bible doesn't give us a lot of detail as to who these dead are. I'm not willing to state this is some purgatory the Catholic faith believes in, but it certainly is a spiritual "holding place" that God calls these souls out of; a place where these souls did not go to heaven or hell.

 

[Starman3000m]

I think I would disagree to a certain point. Revelation 20 talks about the dead that are called out of their death to be judged. Where are these dead residing? Is there a consciousness to them? Are they souls laying in some sort of limbo? The Bible doesn't give us a lot of detail as to who these dead are. I'm not willing to state this is some purgatory the Catholic faith believes in, but it certainly is a spiritual "holding place" that God calls these souls out of; a place where these souls did not go to heaven or hell.

Hi Psyops,

Actually, it appears the holding places you may be referrring to in The Book of Revelation are spiritual "Paradise" where souls of the saved people through Jesus have gone to be with the Lord as in (Luke 23:43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

and, literally, a spiritual "Hell" where the souls of the lost who rejected Jesus are cast into the "Spiritual depths with Satan's angels as in (2 Peter2:4) For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

The difference is that the RCC is saying a Catholic's soul is "saved" but first they must go to a spiritual intermediate level called "purgatory" in order to receive some kind of punishment to expiate for their minor "venial sins".

Meanwhile, the sinner who went to be with Jesus was not told, "Today you will be with me in "paradise" and while there, you'll still need to be punished a bit further before I can let you into my Father's Kingdom"

The fact is, a sinner here on earth is saved by the Grace of God once and for all through faith in Jesus Christ, according to the Holy Bible and they are spared any wrath of God, according to the Holy Bible:

For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

Thus the promise that we can be assured of salvation and there is no longer any condemnation as the RCC claims the reason for "purgatory"

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1)

Now, the end all is this: The righteous who die in a state of Salvation do not receive the judgment of Eternal Damnation during the Great White Throne Judgment but their names are found written in the Book of Life because they overcame this world only through the Saving Grace through Jesus:

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Revelation 3:5)

and those who are brought up to account who are in hell...well, here's what the Book of Revelations states:

Revelation 20, verses:

11: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Conclusion: Two Spiritual Holding Places before the Great White Throne Judgment: Paradise with Jesus and Hell with Satan's angels. The Bible does not say there is a spiritual place where one goes to get some more cleansing of "minor sins" otherwise that means that one's faith in Jesus during his/her lifetime was not good enough to begin with.

 

[libby]

the wages of sin is death

THAT is the condemnation that we are spared. It does not mean we play no part in our own salvation.
I'm guessing you consider the Bible to have many layers of meaning:literal, figurative, natural and supernatural.
Would that be an accurate statement?
Catholics refer to Jesus "Passion" (which I do not believe is exclusive to Catholics) and it begins in the Garden of Gethsemane and ends with His Crucifixion and Death.
Would you agree that His Sacrifice and Atonement stretches through all those events?

 

[PsyOps]

Hi Psyops,

Interestingly enough you went on a very elaborate dialogue to say pretty much the same thing I said. In my references I did not differentiate between whether these souls were being held in some sort of paradise or in hell. It states these are the dead. Where they reside is not stipulated. Like I mentioned, I don’t subscribe to the Catholic meaning of purgatory. But I don’t claim to know who these dead are, why they are being kept in a place as dead, then raised again to be judged. These are things that God didn’t go into a lot of detail about and I trust God will deal with it in His just way.