Calvert County's Finest

[Ken King]

Tikipirate,

Skolnik is still a fine book on principles even if it is “a boring piece of shiat”, granted it isn’t full of pictures as what I suspect you would enjoy, but it's still a good book. As to my knowledge there are no government endorsed standards for radar performance, the manufacturers won’t even submit the units for IACP testing (non-governmental standards) and simply rely upon their own standards as to unit performance. And while calibration might be an issue with the value reported as one’s speed it is more than likely an operator error/misinterpretation issue.

Some of the known issues involved with the operation of mobile police radars are antenna positioning errors, look past errors, multiple target errors, cosine errors, multi-path errors, beam deflection errors, stationary target errors, RF interference (like the cops radio), and interference generated by electrical motors within the patrol vehicle such as fans for heater/air-conditioning. I’m sure there are many more and even back in the late 70s reports of trees being clocked at 86 MPH have been observed and never refuted.

With these known errors it is a wonder that radar reported speeds can be used as evidence at all. As Skolnik reflects early in his book radar is ambiguous at best and couple this with a unit in the hands of a novice/inattentive officer and it is far from conclusive. One could argue that this radar derived evidence by itself does not reach the standard of “beyond reasonable doubt” necessary to obtain a guilty verdict. The problem is that very few have challenged the radar results and even fewer care.

 

[vraiblonde]

That even if he doesn't show up you still have to pay the fine and or get the points.

But how can you dispute it if there's no one there to refute your dispute? (Did that make sense?)

 

[Vixen]

But how can you dispute it if there's no one there to refute your dispute? (Did that make sense?)

What they are doing is rescheduling them, then that county courthouse sends out a hit list to the commander of that installation letting them know that Officer Jones FTA for court on such and such date and the case has been rescheduled for (new date). Some judges will toss them, but most often, they will just reschedule them, and if the judge is really mad about it, he or she will issue a bench warrant for the officer's arrest. (oh yes they will)

 

[LexiGirl75]

I found this entire forum to be enteresting (entertaining and interesting). I lived in DC all of my life and was driving for 8 yrs. Only got two tickets, one from a lying cop who said I made a right turn without stopping for the stop sign, yeah right like I didn't give two shiats abut my car. The other time was by a speed camera car on I-295.

Upon moving to So Md in less than 6 mos I was pulled over by a trooper who says I was doing 71 in a 55mph (oh and that I didn't have my full lights on in the foggy January condition). Well after asking me a thousand questions about my new car (maybe because of the temp tags) he finally gave me a warning as having done 55+ in a 55. Never heard of that. Later that day I was near the Leonardtown Courthouse and I saw him walk pass my car as I was parking holding his manila folder I assume with that day's work in it. Oh that ticked me off more than the hats they wear. Anyway, I believe I was targeted that day because I was racing with one of those Owls Wildlife Rescue Mission trucks (how come he didnt get pulled over). Secondly, I think that certain commercial or gov't vehicles call stuff in on people. Petty Pigeons.

The other time I was going down Pax Bch Rd heading towards Calvert and an unmarked car stopped me (not the person that was zooming in front of me too who caused my fit of road rage, I do not like one lane roads). Well anyway that person pulled over first (having saw the cops lights), me thinking finally you get out of my way zoomed even more (I thought I had a break) then I notice the cop car. And I pull over in front of the road ragee and then the unmarked cop pulled in between us (wonder how he fit).

Anyway, I guess he was headed to Calvert County too and so he gave me a ticket for $65 and hopefully no points (he reduced my 67 in a 50 to a 59 in a 50. And he gave me a warning for still having a DC license. To make matters worse a state trooper pulled up along the other side I guess just in case I kicked off one could hold me down while the other beat me.

They all tick me off. I use to be cop friendly now I just turn my head when I see them on the side of the road and act like I am picking lint off of my left shoulder or even fake a huge sneeze until I pass by them (oh sorry officer I didn't see you pointing to the ground for me to pull over). But they are everywhere down here and this is how they make their money (traffic tickets). It is not going to end. The best thing is to find jobs locally but I believe that is a part of the set-up too.

Good luck to all my fellow commuters. Gotspeed.

 

[OHHSDAVE98]

Oh you aren't alone.  I got nailed for a ticket doing 75 mph when I'd just turned on to rt 5 from Mechanicsville Rd to go to Mechanicsville Elementary, (which is all of a few hundred yards) I hadn't even made it up to the legal speed limit yet.  I do hope there is a special place in Hell just for those folks!

thats nuts

 

[Bogart]

Yeah, everyone in prison is innocent.

 

[tikipirate]

Tikipirate,

Skolnik is still a fine book on principles even if it is “a boring piece of shiat”, granted it isn’t full of pictures as what I suspect you would enjoy, but it's still a good book. As to my knowledge there are no government endorsed standards for radar performance, the manufacturers won’t even submit the units for IACP testing (non-governmental standards) and simply rely upon their own standards as to unit performance. And while calibration might be an issue with the value reported as one’s speed it is more than likely an operator error/misinterpretation issue.

Some of the known issues involved with the operation of mobile police radars are antenna positioning errors, look past errors, multiple target errors, cosine errors, multi-path errors, beam deflection errors, stationary target errors, RF interference (like the cops radio), and interference generated by electrical motors within the patrol vehicle such as fans for heater/air-conditioning. I’m sure there are many more and even back in the late 70s reports of trees being clocked at 86 MPH have been observed and never refuted.

With these known errors it is a wonder that radar reported speeds can be used as evidence at all. As Skolnik reflects early in his book radar is ambiguous at best and couple this with a unit in the hands of a novice/inattentive officer and it is far from conclusive. One could argue that this radar derived evidence by itself does not reach the standard of “beyond reasonable doubt” necessary to obtain a guilty verdict. The problem is that very few have challenged the radar results and even fewer care.

Good God Kenny, you must drive fast a whole bunch!

I maintain that Skolnik is outdated wrt the way modern military radars work. (And, yes, I do loves me pictures.) In fact, last time I moved from bachelor pad to bachelor pad I tossed my copy of Skolnik to lighten the load.

Skolnik is probably state-of-the-art wrt traffic radars. Last I dealt with them (investigating using them on helos for judging closing velocity on a heaving deck) they were simple CW non-pulsed radars.

The only reason that I brought up the calibration log is that may be the only way to fight the ticket on paper. Who knows what the radar officer was pointing the beam at when he took the reading, and I agree with every point you brought up above. (Although cosine error is usually our friend.)

The gross errors reported in this thread astound me, and if I were the victim I would walk into the courtroom with a full head of steam. But I also know that I once drove from Dayton to PAX in a hair over 6 hours, and from Ottawa to Detroit in just over 4. (Both times I never dipped below 130MPH for several hours.) So the Karma cop is holding some big paper for me.

 

[Ken King]

Good God Kenny, you must drive fast a whole bunch!

I maintain that Skolnik is outdated wrt the way modern military radars work. (And, yes, I do loves me pictures.) In fact, last time I moved from bachelor pad to bachelor pad I tossed my copy of Skolnik to lighten the load.

Skolnik is probably state-of-the-art wrt traffic radars. Last I dealt with them (investigating using them on helos for judging closing velocity on a heaving deck) they were simple CW non-pulsed radars.

The only reason that I brought up the calibration log is that may be the only way to fight the ticket on paper. Who knows what the radar officer was pointing the beam at when he took the reading, and I agree with every point you brought up above. (Although cosine error is usually our friend.)

The gross errors reported in this thread astound me, and if I were the victim I would walk into the courtroom with a full head of steam. But I also know that I once drove from Dayton to PAX in a hair over 6 hours, and from Ottawa to Detroit in just over 4. (Both times I never dipped below 130MPH for several hours.) So the Karma cop is holding some big paper for me.

I usually flow with traffic and haven't had a speeding ticket in 8 years or so when I was stopped for doing 80 in a 55 and Johnny Law wrote the ticket for 59 in a 55 giving me a big break. I was guilty so why fight it, did PBJ and got zero points.

I agree that cosine error is sometimes your friend unless impacting the moving radars calculated speed and a calculated slower patrol car speed means an increased target speed.

 

[tlatchaw]

A good friend of mine is a Calvert Sherrif's Deputy. His folks live around the corner from me on a 30 mph road (residential) where many people run about 50mph or better.

He pulled over a whole bunch of those yahoos a few months ago and handed out alot of fines. Some of them went to court to fight it and got the fines either reduced or thrown out because his parents live on that road. Question: What the heck does that have to do with it?

I understand rolling up and down rte 2/4 at 70mph or greater (mostly that's just keeping with traffic in the early morning), but can we all please just slow down on the back roads where people live? If it's two lanes, just cool it.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

It's my understanding the the ticket gets automatically thrown out if you show up in court to dispute it and the cop that ticketed you is a no-show. Is that right?

You have the right to face your accuser. If they are not present, the judge should dismiss or reschedule.

 

[CarolG]

If these guys are relying upon radar you might have a chance.   Recommend you grab Radar Principles by Skolnik.  Could go a long way to making a case.  The doppler radars that the cops use are subject to multipath returns and ambiguous target returns.  Hilly areas, vehicles going in both directions, wind, and weather make them unreliable for computing speed.  Florida law cases in the late 70s instrumental for getting them removed from use in Florida.

Just wanted to say that I work with Dr. Skolnik. I won't show him this thread.

 

[SkinkTyree]

I know that area north of BGE well--there always seems to be a cop posted in that vicinity. I was pulled over around there once--not for speeding, but for the fact that my car didn't have a front license plate holder yet (even though I had the plate displayed on the dash). Got a warning, that was it.

If you really want to get under the sheriff's department's skin, may I suggest you take a page out of what citizens in Bradford County, Florida have done:

There is a stretch of US 301 (i.e. the same highway that goes through Waldorf and such) there between Jacksonville and Gainesville that is notorious for being a jackpot for speeding tickets. I mean, the Bradford County Sheriff's department has made a cottage industry out of speeding tickets in that area. They will pull you over for going 46 in a 45 zone.

One person had enough of this windfall for the county and put up huge billboards saying "Speed Trap--Two miles ahead" from the areas where the speed traps were. The sheriff's department was majorly p'oed, but they couldn't do anything about it--the billboards were bought and paid for. Ever since, pull-overs have declined significantly.

Recently, I was in Gainesville doing a trial. I had to drive a witness back to the airport in Jacksonville to catch his flight, and I had 1 hour and 10 minutes to get him there before his flight left. I had to take US 301 up to Jacksonville, and I wasn't quite keeping up with the speed limit. But I knew exactly where the speed traps were due to those billboards, and managed to beat the police at their own game.

So in other words, do you have any money for a billboard? I'm sure CCSD would be thrilled.

 

[General Lee]

One night last week an unmarked cruiser came up behind he at a high rate of speed (well over 85 I assumed) and then stayed on my bumper for about 3 miles before I changed lanes. #He then came up beside me, looked at me then took off just as fast as he came. #They do this quite a bit but never at such a high speed.

There could be alot of reasons why officers do this. All day long they are given lookouts/vehicle descriptions that have been involved in a crime or they are looking for a certain vehicle for whatever the reason may be. They could be simply checking your vehicle at a closer position, calling in your plate for a registration check (which they can do with any plate in plane view sight) and looking to see if the driver or passenger matches the description of who they may be looking for. Or just simply looking for a reason to pull you over

 

[huntr1]

I have heard that if you wire up a fishfinder transducer to a CB, you fry the signal from radar guns, rendering them useless. Another option? Slow down. I have started driving slower lately. Had been averaging 70-75 on 495, now that I have found the sweet spot for the driver's seat in my car, I am able to keep it at 55-60. My MPG went from 30 MPG to 35 MPG, and it only costs me an extra 10 or so minutes on my commute.

 

[willie]

I have heard that if you wire up a fishfinder transducer to a CB, you fry the signal from radar guns, rendering them useless. Another option? Slow down. I have started driving slower lately. Had been averaging 70-75 on 495, now that I have found the sweet spot for the driver's seat in my car, I am able to keep it at 55-60. My MPG went from 30 MPG to 35 MPG, and it only costs me an extra 10 or so minutes on my commute.

I tried going 60-65 on 495 and got trampled.

 

[huntr1]

I tried going 60-65 on 495 and got trampled.

I stay in the right 2 lanes. Only get out of the right shoulder lane when ther is an exit/entrance ramp, to allow the slower cars to have access. I have not had any problems yet. This A.M. there was an azz cruising in the left lane of Rt. 5 from before Hughesville all the way to Forrest Park, running a rolling roadblock with the slowest cars he could find. Then, when we got to the bypass, he ran all the way to the light, then cut in about 5' before the concrete turn corner thingy. He then proceeded to do the same thing on the bypass. He was backing up traffic for about a mile prior to Forrest Park. What an azzhole!

 

[migtig]

I stay in the right 2 lanes. Only get out of the right shoulder lane when ther is an exit/entrance ramp, to allow the slower cars to have access. I have not had any problems yet. This A.M. there was an azz cruising in the left lane of Rt. 5 from before Hughesville all the way to Forrest Park, running a rolling roadblock with the slowest cars he could find. Then, when we got to the bypass, he ran all the way to the light, then cut in about 5' before the concrete turn corner thingy. He then proceeded to do the same thing on the bypass. He was backing up traffic for about a mile prior to Forrest Park. What an azzhole!

Sounds like a typical commute. :shrug:

 

[huntr1]

Sounds like a typical commute. :shrug:

He made me wish I was driving an Abrahms.

Stupid freaking Kennedy, tree hugger and buttocks pirate! (as in he had a Kerry sticker on the bumper, drove a civic hybrid and looked like he woulda fit in perfectly in Dupont Circle or San Fran.)