Can gunmaker be held responsible for Newtown shooting?

Amused_despair

New Member
Books, video games, TV shows, movies, etc… all have content that can affect someone’s thinking. A gun does not do this. It just sits there until someone decides to pick it up; and this act of picking it up to use it could have been influenced by something they saw or heard in media.

when we blame "things" for our own failings we open the door for other "things" to be blamed for other failings, it is the slippery slope that is so often discussed in many legal arguments. Once we say that a book is bad and should be burned to keep the children safe, even though the book just sits on a shelf and can not hurt anyone unless picked up and thrown at someone (unless you get a paper cut...ouch) then it is not that hard of an argument to extend the logic to include the hunk of metal, plastic and sometimes wood that sits on a shelf or against a wall and can not hurt anyone unless someone throws it at someone, uses it as a club, or loads it with ammunition and shoots people. So much easier to blame the book or the video game or the TV show for making us be bad then it is to take responsibility for ourselves. But when we use that argument we leave ourselves open to have it used against us in ways we did not foresee when we decided to blame the TV show "Will and Grace" for our children becoming gay.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
when we blame "things" for our own failings we open the door for other "things" to be blamed for other failings, it is the slippery slope that is so often discussed in many legal arguments. Once we say that a book is bad and should be burned to keep the children safe, even though the book just sits on a shelf and can not hurt anyone unless picked up and thrown at someone (unless you get a paper cut...ouch) then it is not that hard of an argument to extend the logic to include the hunk of metal, plastic and sometimes wood that sits on a shelf or against a wall and can not hurt anyone unless someone throws it at someone, uses it as a club, or loads it with ammunition and shoots people. So much easier to blame the book or the video game or the TV show for making us be bad then it is to take responsibility for ourselves. But when we use that argument we leave ourselves open to have it used against us in ways we did not foresee when we decided to blame the TV show "Will and Grace" for our children becoming gay.

Don’t interpret what I posted as blaming those things. I am a believer that a child is the product of FIRST: their parents and SECOND: their environment. When the mind has been weakened with a lack of discipline, a sense of reality, and personal responsibility all the other things (movies, games, TV, etc…) become much easier to affect someone’s thinking. First and foremost I blame the parents.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Lets rewrite the title of this thread a bit......

"Can the legal system be used to both harass the maker of a product into not offering a certain style of weapon for sale domestically anymore and at the same time, slide the nose of the camel a little farther under the tent?"

And of course, the answer is yes. The purpose of this suit isn't to get the Sandy Hook parents a cent, anymore than the average class action suit is to get real satisfaction to the individual members of the class.
 

Amused_despair

New Member
We write laws to harass cigarette makers selling legal products, making it harder for them to market and sell their products, and to hold them liable when consumers hurt themselves while using their products. We even make the cigarette manufacturers pay for the campaigns to get rid of their products. Not that hard for people to use this strategy to achieve their goals with guns. After all, we must protect the children.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
We write laws to harass cigarette makers selling legal products, making it harder for them to market and sell their products, and to hold them liable when consumers hurt themselves while using their products. We even make the cigarette manufacturers pay for the campaigns to get rid of their products. Not that hard for people to use this strategy to achieve their goals with guns. After all, we must protect the children.

Interesting parallels...but. Unlike cigarettes, our right to own firearms is protected by a Constitutional amendment. Unlike the case with cigarette laws and lawsuits, courts have ruled in favor of gun rights on many an occasion..specifically because that amendment exists. Of course that is why the gun grabbers spend so much time and energy trying to skew the interpretation(s) of that amendment too.
 

Inkd

Active Member
This will settle out of court for an absurd amount of money. Not surprisingly.


I hope they don't settle out of court. I would like to see this go all the way and then have them lose. But, odds are they will settle out of court. I guess any chance you go to court, you risk the chance of losing.


Suing Bushmaster is like suing Dodge cause some idiot got liquored up and killed your family while driving a Charger.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
I hope they don't settle out of court. I would like to see this go all the way and then have them lose. But, odds are they will settle out of court. I guess any chance you go to court, you risk the chance of losing.

Any gun manufacturer that doesn't realize the implications of settling vice fighting it shouldn't be doing what they're doing. They have to know settling sets the terrible precedence that the gun is the problem and threatens their very livelihood.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
We claim that books can be responsible for people sinning, that video games can be responsible for people being violent, that women wearing revealing clothing can be responsible for men raping them, that TV shows can be responsible for corrupting the family values in our own homes so.......

Uh, oh. You just started goring oxen, didn't you? :lol:
 

Amused_despair

New Member
I think one of the best arguments against blaming "things" for our own sins and failings is given by John Lithgow in the movie "Footloose" (The original not the rehash) when he is stopping his congregation from book-burning.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Don’t interpret what I posted as blaming those things. I am a believer that a child is the product of FIRST: their parents and SECOND: their environment. When the mind has been weakened with a lack of discipline, a sense of reality, and personal responsibility all the other things (movies, games, TV, etc…) become much easier to affect someone’s thinking. First and foremost I blame the parents.

I don't think he/she is looking at you. I think AD's comments are general, and very accurate, observations of what we people do depending on where we stand on a given issue. The right thinks, in general, that the second amendment is an absolute right and no one should be harmed by it, that it has nothing to do with, say, Sandy Hook or any other improper use of a weapon while, in general, thinking gay marriage, Hollywood, books, music, movies, have profound impact on behavior.

The truth is that by the simple act of producing a gun, like producing a book, saying something, there IS an influence and then the question becomes one of how much and how proper/improper and what to do. We don't want people yelling fire in a crowded theater when there is none. The suit against Bushmaster is going to focus on their advertisements that, clearly, promote the warrior/combat/bad ass image and use of their 'modern sporting rifle'. The argument is going to be that Bushmaster knowingly, intentionally, promoted violent use of their product.

Now, in a land of free speech, you should be able to tell me to go shoot up a school all you like and, as long as you had nothing to do with it, it's just speech. But, again, both ends of the political spectrum promote the idea that speech has something to do with action. So, we're in muddle land where simple inconsistency on both ends of that political, social spectrum, open the door wide to drive through the idea that people who had nothing to do with a specific action can still be held responsible for how someone else acts.

had Bushmaster ALWAYS promoted their AR's as modern sporting rifles to be used for hunting and target shooting and personal defense, this would be a MUCH tough argument for the plaintiffs. If you've seem some Bushmaster ads, you can see how it's not hard to argue they promoted them for combat uses, too.

If it is me, I throw this suit out and try and have the lawyers disbarred for insulting the profession. But, if it is me, I throw out plaintiffs trying to ban books, send musicians to jail and use the Constitution to ban gay marriage. So, we'll see.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Interesting parallels...but. Unlike cigarettes, our right to own firearms is protected by a Constitutional amendment. Unlike the case with cigarette laws and lawsuits, courts have ruled in favor of gun rights on many an occasion..specifically because that amendment exists. Of course that is why the gun grabbers spend so much time and energy trying to skew the interpretation(s) of that amendment too.

A right does not have to be specifically enumerated in the constitution in order to be a right. I would argue that the right to smoke is covered in the DOI “right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, and the subsequent constitution supports these rights. The government is supposed to be limited in intruding on our lives, trying to protect us from ourselves. Smoking, drinking, drugs, wearing seatbelts/helmets… as long as doing those things harms no one else, they should be protected rights.

We’ve just come too used to the government managing things for us rather than taking responsibility as a people for them. In that, the government gets more comfortable in dictating our lives. We are telling them we are too stupid to manage our lives and our society.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
In that, the government gets more comfortable in dictating our lives. We are telling them we are too stupid to manage our lives and our society.

Not to be argumentative, but I believe the Government is telling US that we are too stupid to manage our lives.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
A right does not have to be specifically enumerated in the constitution in order to be a right. I would argue that the right to smoke is covered in the DOI “right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”, and the subsequent constitution supports these rights. The government is supposed to be limited in intruding on our lives, trying to protect us from ourselves. Smoking, drinking, drugs, wearing seatbelts/helmets… as long as doing those things harms no one else, they should be protected rights.

We’ve just come too used to the government managing things for us rather than taking responsibility as a people for them. In that, the government gets more comfortable in dictating our lives. We are telling them we are too stupid to manage our lives and our society.

I don't think that the DOI would stand as a legal precedent. At it's core, it was just a letter saying "You're not our leader anymore".
 

Inkd

Active Member
Any gun manufacturer that doesn't realize the implications of settling vice fighting it shouldn't be doing what they're doing. They have to know settling sets the terrible precedence that the gun is the problem and threatens their very livelihood.

I would like to see them fight too, that's what I said originally. I just think they will settle out of court because I think their legal team will advise them that way. I think it's a bull$hit case that should never see the inside of a courtroom. I think any lawyer who represents the families should be disbarred.

But, in todays world where a man can get trapped in a garage of the house he broke into and sue the homeowner and win, I can see where settling out of court can be attractive to large businesses.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Not to be argumentative, but I believe the Government is telling US that we are too stupid to manage our lives.

Certainly we are allowing them to; which tells them - we are too stupid to manage our own lives...............No?
 
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