Catholic Preists

Bustem' Down · Apr 4, 2005

Wasn't sure where to put this, but it's church politics, and the people who respond to these threads are the type of people I'd like to hear from.

Had a recent discussion with some co-workers. We were talking about the a new Pope and some of them said that they would like to see the new Pope remove the law prohibiting preists from marrying. They claimed that this would solve the recent problems of child abuse by preists here in America. I disagreed with them. My reasoning is perverts are perverts and that marriage won't change that. There are plenty of married men out there who do that kind of thing who are not priests. I see the problem not so much as it's because of celibacy but maybe some underlying problem we have in the US. I never hear of these thing from other countries. Maybe the news isn't brought here I don't know. What are your ideas on the subject? I was outnumbered in my position at work.

Triggerfish · Apr 4, 2005

Regular heterosexual behavior doesn't prevent pedophilia. Also a large percentage of Catholic priests are homosexual. A lot of people think they are the pedophiles but one has nothing to do with the other. A small percentage of the sexual abuses of minors would have been prevented though. In some cases the abuses have been sexually mature teenagers. Some of them ended up pregnant. I remember one instance that a teenage girl claimed that a priest got her pregnant and he forced her to get an abortion.

Railroad · Apr 4, 2005

BD, being a Protestant, there are things about priests that give me a lot of trouble, but the celibacy thing is a pledge that perhaps is underestimated when first taken. Because God created priests the same as all the rest of us, one can hardly imagine that priests never have sexual urges - or nuns, either, for that matter. I guess I don't have really strong feelings either way on the marriage issue, and I doubt that marriage would stop the sexual crimes committed by priests, but it might reduce them. So I'd say that allowing priests to marry is a good idea - after all, our Protestant pastors are usually married.

SamSpade · Apr 4, 2005

I think forbidding priests to marry is a tradition that has long outlasted its usefulness. I've heard that one of the reasons it was implemented was to prevent a lot of dynastic tendencies when the Church was extremely powerful - passing on power to sons and grandsons. (Yes, I'm familiar with the Scriptures on this one as well).

I *can* fully understand that, in the absence of a family, a priest is more 'flexible' - he can be sent anywhere at any time. You can support more unmarried priests than you can a priest, his wife and his family - especially in a poor parish. A priest can live very cheaply on his own, and the Catholic Church is in DIRE need of more priests (a problem that *might* be alleviated by allowing them to marry - but it might not). The passages of Scripture that are relevant suggest that a married man has divided interests - but an unmarried one does not. I think that the Catholic church could stand to take a page from the Protestant churches throughout the world in that it can be done.

Years ago, I read a book called "A Modern Priest Looks at His Outdated Church". One of the frequent remarks in the books was that priests, in confessionals, in counseling and in daily lives are virtually awash in sexual confessions, sexual counseling, and temptations, *ESPECIALLY* if they are still fairly young. For the writer, it became a torment to listen *constantly* to confessions and stories from young women, knowing it was an area he was forbidden to cross into.

I'm reminded of an old joke about the Italian woman looking up at the Pope in St. Peter's square as he denounced the use of birth control. She replies "hey, you no play-a da game, you no make-a da rules". I agree. They should be allowed to marry.

Larry Gude · Apr 4, 2005

I'm curious how thay make that argument...

They claimed that this would solve the recent problems of child abuse by preists here in America

Everything I've read states that the vast majority of offenders are otherwise heterosexual males, usually married.

I'm not Catholic so this is just my opinion as an outsider:

Don't change it.

I used to be Episcopal which is Latin for 'if it feels good, do it'. I'm not sure what the purpose of being special is, of being a person of the cloth, if we constantly seek to 'normalize' those who've presumably answered a higher calling.

A priest, to me, is suppossed to be a person of remarkable inner strength, of faith. A person who turns the other cheek. A keeper of the flame. Devout. A true servant of God which means they are not suppossed to be just like us, not suppossed to 'give in' to human weakness.

A person who asbstains, for life, by choice, is a person of moral authority who can help you quit drinking, be more respectful of your wife and neighbors. Help you quit drugs. Help you get a hair cut and get a real job. Help you when you are weak. Help you be good.

They command that respect because they are, by definition, holier than thou. They are a rock you lean on in the storm.

Can you imagine:

"Forgive me father for I have sinned"

"Go on my son".

"Well, it's my wife...nag, nag, doesn't put out like she used to..."

Father: "Don't I know it! For Christ sakes, I WORK Sundays and mine is STILL with the 'honey do'. Whaddya say we go to the topless bar, knock a few back, say some 'Hail Mary's'. We'll both feel better."

"Alright Padre!"

Of course, attendence at this guys parish might pick up?

alex · Apr 4, 2005

Actually there are some married priests in the Catholic church. Mainly they were priests in the Episcopal church who converted. Since they were already married they were allowed to stay that way. But if their spouse dies they can not remarry.

I don't think that married priests will correct the pedophilia (sp?) problem that the Cathoic church has had (it has also been reported in other countries i.e., Ireland, England, Austria to name a few). However, it may help with their overall decline in people wanting to be priests. It wasn't until Augustine that priests were not allowed to marry. He dispised women yet throughly enjoyed using them for physical pleasure. More an attitude of "do as I say not as I do".

bresamil · Apr 4, 2005

Larry Gude said:
Everything I've read states that the vast majority of offenders are otherwise heterosexual males, usually married.

I'm not Catholic so this is just my opinion as an outsider:

Don't change it.

I used to be Episcopal which is Latin for 'if it feels good, do it'. I'm not sure what the purpose of being special is, of being a person of the cloth, if we constantly seek to 'normalize' those who've presumably answered a higher calling.

A priest, to me, is suppossed to be a person of remarkable inner strength, of faith. A person who turns the other cheek. A keeper of the flame. Devout. A true servant of God which means they are not suppossed to be just like us, not suppossed to 'give in' to human weakness.

A person who asbstains, for life, by choice, is a person of moral authority who can help you quit drinking, be more respectful of your wife and neighbors. Help you quit drugs. Help you get a hair cut and get a real job. Help you when you are weak. Help you be good.

They command that respect because they are, by definition, holier than thou. They are a rock you lean on in the storm.

Can you imagine:

"Forgive me father for I have sinned"

"Go on my son".

"Well, it's my wife...nag, nag, doesn't put out like she used to..."

Father: "Don't I know it! For Christ sakes, I WORK Sundays and mine is STILL with the 'honey do'. Whaddya say we go to the topless bar, knock a few back, say some 'Hail Mary's'. We'll both feel better."

"Alright Padre!"

Of course, attendence at this guys parish might pick up?

Larry we seem to be in total agreement today. If I hadn't already given you karma for the other thread, I'd send it now.

The priesthood is a calling to serve God above your own human needs and wants. If they had the same lives as everyone else, they might as well be car mechanics.

Marriage has never stopped pedophilia. Some of the perverts marry and have kids so they can indulge without leaving home. They've bred their own victims.

SamSpade · Apr 4, 2005

Larry Gude said:
They command that respect because they are, by definition, holier than thou. They are a rock you lean on in the storm.

I was raised Catholic - most of my family is still Catholic, and my parents were until I was thirty. I went to Catholic schools, went to Catholic high school. I left the Catholic church for a Protestant one in my twenties.

When I was a kid, my parish priest was often one of my best friends. One of them befriended me, and I often helped him out at his home. He'd often come by the house, talk sports with my dad, drink (whiskey) and smoke. I *liked* him, but he was no spiritual tower to me. When he died, he was replaced by a kindly gentleman who I believed very much embodied the spirit of what a priest was supposed to be - but, he was ineffective at raising money for the new church building, and the diocese replaced him with a more effective priest, one whom I was never very close to. (I was an altar boy for many years during this time.)

I've also known a handful of spiritual, kind men who demonstrated their servanthood by their daily lives - by their families - by how they treated their wives - and the strain they felt internally by the need to care for their flock but not to neglect their family. I had *enormous* respect for these men. It was their outstanding character - not their status, collar, or celibacy - that shone. I was frequently amazed at their humility, the insults they took graciously, the burdens they carried silently. As the Bible mentions of the great patriarchs, the world was not worthy of them.

It's important to note that while Paul and Barnabas are noted for not having wives - it's also true that the other leaders of the New Testament *did*. (One account mentions Peter calling to his wife to "Remember the Lord" as she was martyred before his eyes). It wasn't until MUCH later that celibacy became de rigeur for priests.

Kizzy · Apr 4, 2005

Larry said:
Everything I've read states that the vast majority of offenders are otherwise heterosexual males, usually married.

So I don’t see where allowing a priest to get married will reduce anything. However, I do believe that, just like Sam said, “forbidding priests to marry is a tradition that has long outlasted its usefulness.”

A priest is someone who is also supposed to be there in a time of need, such as, when a couple has marital problems. I've often wondered how a priest can give advise on marriage when he doesn't have a clue what that experience is like.

BTW, Sam, I was also raised Catholic, attended Catholic school until I was in the 7th grade, and as always, you’ve already made some excellent points.

Larry Gude · Apr 4, 2005

Is this your point...

I had *enormous* respect for these men. It was their outstanding character - not their status, collar, or celibacy - that shone.

If so, yeah, it's the character that they are SUPPOSSED to exhibit, what we have in mind when speaking of a priest. No collar or name = character.

Larry Gude · Apr 4, 2005

We say that to often in my book...

I've often wondered how a priest can give advise on marriage when he doesn't have a clue what that experience is like.

We don't seem to want to respect what a person says or does UNLESS they've walked a mile in whomevers shoes.

What Dr. Laura says on the radio about her opinion of being a man vs. merely being a male resonates with me not because she'd been, obviously, a husband, but because it rings true with what makes sense to me and what I believe in. She, as a reinforcement on occaision, has helped me in some ways to be a better husband, father, man. Vrai is like that. Objectivity is sometimes better than experience.

I've been to a male marriage counselor, never married. He helped me. Alot.

You don't have to be a fireman to know fire burns. In some ways people who have not walked in out shoes help us get out of our excuses for mis-behavior because they are not susceptible to our bias of having 'been there, done that, therefore I know and you don't.'

To them, BS sounds like BS, not experience.

willie · Apr 4, 2005

Are there any recent cases of molestation by priests? I went to all Catholic schools throughout high school, first taught by Sister's then the Christian Brother's. I never saw any indication of sexual hanky panky but those Brother's sure took discipline to the extreme. As far as I was concerned, there were a few of them that should be getting out of jail just about now. Parents, back then, seemed to tolerate a lot of crap. I always had the impression that quite a few of us were there because our parents were too liberal to give us an azz kicking themselves. In those days, I believe "faith" was misplaced.

2ndAmendment · Apr 4, 2005

Part one of two because of 10000 character restriction

Not being a Catholic, I don't really care one way or the other. Being celibate is not Biblical directive for men of church leadership. Paul wrote about being or not being married in

1 Corinthians 7

Teaching on Marriage

1Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. 2But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

3The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

5Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

6But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

7Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.

8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

9But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband

11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

12But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.

13And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

15Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

16For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

17Only, as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And so I direct in all the churches.

18Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called.

21Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that.

22For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave.

23You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

24Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

25Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy.

26I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is.

27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

28But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.

29But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;

30and those who weep, as though they did not weep; and those who rejoice, as though they did not rejoice; and those who buy, as though they did not possess;

31and those who use the world, as though they did not make full use of it; for the form of this world is passing away.

32But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;

33but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,

34and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

35This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord.

36But if any man thinks that he is acting unbecomingly toward his virgin daughter, if she is past her youth, and if it must be so, let him do what he wishes, he does not sin; let her marry.

37But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin daughter, he will do well.

38So then both he who gives his own virgin daughter in marriage does well, and he who does not give her in marriage will do better.

39A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

40But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

2ndAmendment · Apr 4, 2005

Part two of two because of 10000 character restriction

As for church leaders, this is what is in scripture.

1 Timothy 3

Overseers and Deacons

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

9but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

10These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;

15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory.

I take the Bible as authoritative in things that are spiritual. Many, probably most, don't, but the above is what the Bible says on the subject.

That stated, I don't think allowing priests to marry will stop pedophilia. The reason you don't hear of pedophilia in other cultures is that it is "accepted" in many. In many countries including Mexico, the age of consent is 12. Some countries, especially Middle Eastern countries have no age of consent restrictions. http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

vraiblonde · Apr 4, 2005

Larry Gude said:
I've been to a male marriage counselor, never married. He helped me. Alot.

Of course he helped YOU - all he did was tell me to accept your behavior and not complain.

I did get some insight from him, but I don't think gay bachelors make the best marriage counselors.

Lots of thoughts on the Catholic church, but I'll simply say that I think priests should be drawn from the pool of normal men instead of the ones that have embraced unnatural celibacy or are gay.

Tonio · Apr 4, 2005

Triggerfish said:
Regular heterosexual behavior doesn't prevent pedophilia. Also a large percentage of Catholic priests are homosexual. A lot of people think they are the pedophiles but one has nothing to do with the other. A small percentage of the sexual abuses of minors would have been prevented though. In some cases the abuses have been sexually mature teenagers.

I think the media did a poor job of informing parents of the details of this stuff. I remember feeling deceived when I found out that most of the victims were teenage boys.

Why? In my mind, a "pedophile" is someone who goes after little kids of both genders. I don't believe the term applies to adults who commit statutory rape. Obviously, both are henious crimes. But as I understand it, they are committed by two separate and distinct groups of offenders. Is it accurate to say that an offender who targets little kids is not likely to go after teenagers, and vice versa?

When the scandal first came to light, I wondered if I should let my children even near a Catholic church. I wondered if the priest was thinking, "That little girl is really pretty. I wonder if she'd like some candy. Heh heh heh...," and I don't mean that as a joke, either. I'd be like "Dominus omnis this crowbar on your head, you sick SOB!"

vraiblonde · Apr 4, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Not being a Catholic, I don't really care one way or the other. Being celibate is not Biblical directive for men of church leadership. Paul wrote about being or not being married in

Catholics tend to make up the rules as they go along. Immaculate Conception, Purgatory.... :shrug:

AMP · Apr 4, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Not being a Catholic, I don't really care one way or the other. Being celibate is not Biblical directive for men of church leadership. Paul wrote about being or not being married in

Being a Catholic, I do care. Paul is not involved in this discussion, which is whether giving priests the freedom to marry will reduce pedophilia (homosexual and otherwise). Paul spoke about women, and about things in the laws which preceeded the celebacy requirements.

To speak to the question posed:
I do not think letting priests marry will cut down on instances of pedophilia. I also don;'t think taking holy orders begets homosexuality.

The person living next door to me was a good looking Air Force Seargeant, and he targeted young girls. How do you deter that? Point is, if the person is wired to like little children, it dosn't matter what profession he chooses. ABuse of trust is the issue with priests, and that is why it is so horrible.

I do know of several seminarians who departed the life before ordination because they were a target for young women. I know of a few priests who have said that parish women throwing themselves at them were a nuisance.

If you think about it, regarding the issue of priests giveing direction, many of the pre-cana classes the Catholics are required to take before marriage are run by the laity, people who have lived a good Catholic version of married life. And with the huge volume of counselors and psychologists/iatrists to choose from, don't you think the instances where a parishioner will seek out a priest are growing fewer? Not sure.

My two cents.

2ndAmendment · Apr 4, 2005

vraiblonde said:
Catholics tend to make up the rules as they go along. Immaculate Conception, Purgatory.... :shrug:

It is true that neither of those is anywhere in the Bible. Catholicism does not take the Bible as the final authority which is against scripture, but Catholics will argue otherwise. That is why AMP says Paul has nothing to do with it. I think the Bible, including the writings of Paul, have everything to do with it.

I don't want to get into Catholic bashing. Even though we have differences, Catholicism and the other Christian denominations agree on Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. We agree on the major point. Beyond that is, in my opinion, worthless dogma.

AMP · Apr 4, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
It is true that neither of those is anywhere in the Bible. Catholicism does not take the Bible as the final authority which is against scripture, but Catholics will argue otherwise. That is why AMP says Paul has nothing to do with it. I think the Bible, including the writings of Paul, have everything to do with it.

I don't want to get into Catholic bashing. Even though we have differences, Catholicism and the other Christian denominations agree on Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. We agree on the major point. Beyond that is, in my opinion, worthless dogma.

I meant Paul has nothing to do with the immediate discussion. I struggle with my Catholic faith because of just such issues - Purgatory, veneration of Mary, celibacy, indulgences, etc.

Much agreement on your last statements about agreements! :wink:

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