CBS does it again

[Bruzilla]

I always hate it when non-firearms people try to act like experts... especially on TV news shows.

It's difficult to compare the 5.56 NATO round with a 7.62X39 because there are different versions of the 5.56 NATO round. The original M193 round used a 55 grain bullet that would get up to about a 3,200 FPS velocity. The new M855 round has a 61.7 grain bullet with a steel penetrator (for punching through steel helmets) that has a slower velocity of about 3,000 FPS. The balance of these two bullets is different and require different twists in the barrel, hence an M-16A1, built to fire the M193 bullet, used a 1/12 or 1/9 twist, which put less spin on the bullet (adding to instability) while the M-16A2/M4 rifles/carbines use a much tighter 1/7 twist that makes the M855 round more stable than the M193 and produces a more traditional wound channel.

So if CBS wanted to be accurate, they would be comparing the 7.62X39 round to a SS109 5.56MM NATO round with the M855 bullet, fired from a 1/7 twist barrel.

 

[Larry Gude]

I bothered to read it...

...didn't see a video.

What I read was those in the know, ex-ground pounders HATE the .223 and those who are responsible for it being in service think it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Speay says the kids are UNDER TRAINED. That is the real issue to me. Troops and cops don't get trained enough, not enough trigger time, to hit what they aim at under pressure.

 

[Bruzilla]

Speaking of such things... I was watching a C-SPAN clip where noted military authority Cher called into one of their phone-in shows and accused the Bush Administration of sending our troops into battle "without the kevlar inserts for their helmets!" Someone must have forgot to tell her that the helmets are made of kevlar.

 

[Larry Gude]

Stop that...

I always hate it when non-firearms people try to act like experts... especially on TV news shows.

It's difficult to compare the 5.56 NATO round with a 7.62X39 because there are different versions of the 5.56 NATO round. The original M193 round used a 55 grain bullet that would get up to about a 3,200 FPS velocity. The new M855 round has a 61.7 grain bullet with a steel penetrator (for punching through steel helmets) that has a slower velocity of about 3,000 FPS. The balance of these two bullets is different and require different twists in the barrel, hence an M-16A1, built to fire the M193 bullet, used a 1/12 or 1/9 twist, which put less spin on the bullet (adding to instability) while the M-16A2/M4 rifles/carbines use a much tighter 1/7 twist that makes the M855 round more stable than the M193 and produces a more traditional wound channel.

So if CBS wanted to be accurate, they would be comparing the 7.62X39 round to a SS109 5.56MM NATO round with the M855 bullet, fired from a 1/7 twist barrel.

...if YOU were arming a division of infantrymen, would you issue them .223 or not?

 

[AK-74me]

I always hate it when non-firearms people try to act like experts... especially on TV news shows.

It's difficult to compare the 5.56 NATO round with a 7.62X39 because there are different versions of the 5.56 NATO round. The original M193 round used a 55 grain bullet that would get up to about a 3,200 FPS velocity. The new M855 round has a 61.7 grain bullet with a steel penetrator (for punching through steel helmets) that has a slower velocity of about 3,000 FPS. The balance of these two bullets is different and require different twists in the barrel, hence an M-16A1, built to fire the M193 bullet, used a 1/12 or 1/9 twist, which put less spin on the bullet (adding to instability) while the M-16A2/M4 rifles/carbines use a much tighter 1/7 twist that makes the M855 round more stable than the M193 and produces a more traditional wound channel.

So if CBS wanted to be accurate, they would be comparing the 7.62X39 round to a SS109 5.56MM NATO round with the M855 bullet, fired from a 1/7 twist barrel.

Exactly but look and who we are talking about. They fired a .308 out of a bolt action hunting rifle and try to make it seem as though that would be the same as a 7.62x39 out of an AK-47.

I think getting into different bullet weights and and barrel twists would be a little outside of their comprehension.

 

[Larry Gude]

I watched the video...

...now as well.

What's the big deal?

All I heard is .223 sux and the brass are scared to change it. What else is new?

 

[itsbob]

I've never actually shot anybody with either round, so i don't have an opinion.

I know a 5.56 round can kill, as I have seen the results..

I know I can hit a target well beyond 300 Meters with the M16A2

I know I can hit a target with the HK in 7.62 out about 200 Meters (the Germans range only went to 200 meters).

I know a wound from a 7.62 round is devastating, but a head shot from either is a kill shot.

Being in Armor I didn't have to worry about carrying a rifle, or the weight of the rounds, so above all I prefer the 25mm Bushmaster Chain Gun to all of the above, you don't even have to get TOO close for a kill shot.

 

[tikipirate]

Some good background on expanding projectiles and the Geneva Convention:

http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html

Here is a link to the mini-50 conversion for the M-16 series that 'some' folks are using. Still seems like it would be brutal in burst mode. I have heard it is being used with success in competitive shooting.

http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/articles/m16_50.asp

Given the recoil and ammunition costs of the above weapon, I would be interested to see a .45 conversion shooting Hydra-Shoks fielded.

Sorry if this has devolved into a 'Guns, Guts and Glory' thread. The original thrust was supposed to be about CBS continually failing to fact check.

 

[kom526]

I've never actually shot anybody with either round, so i don't have an opinion.

I know a 5.56 round can kill, as I have seen the results..

I know I can hit a target well beyond 300 Meters with the M16A2

I know I can hit a target with the HK in 7.62 out about 200 Meters (the Germans range only went to 200 meters).

I know a wound from a 7.62 round is devastating, but a head shot from either is a kill shot.

Being in Armor I didn't have to worry about carrying a rifle, or the weight of the rounds, so above all I prefer the 25mm Bushmaster Chain Gun to all of the above, you don't even have to get TOO close for a kill shot.

The Bushmaster is a nice weapon system.-->LAV-25. I did put a few rounds downrange in Kuwait.

 

[itsbob]

The Bushmaster is a nice weapon system.-->LAV-25. I did put a few rounds downrange in Kuwait.

I was in the first unit in the Army to get both the M1 and the M3.. we got to run and shoot until our hearts content.. They wanted us to use and abuse them until something broke.. We used to go to the ranges a week at a time and just run up and down the range with the Bushmaster blazing.. and other then finding the weak connector between the reciever and the feeder no problems.. oh.. and you could never use too much Molly-B on the chain..

 

[2ndAmendment]

Ever shoot an AR-10? Fires .308, is available now, and the kick is not bad.

The .223 was developed with our field philosophy in mind; never leave a man down. So you wound one and take out three as two have to carry him off. Other forces don't operate that way. Get hit; tough luck. Lay there; we might get back to you, but don't hold your breath. The Pentagon is getting to realize that and are looking at guns with better hitting power looking to drop the 9mm and the .223. The compete is already on for 9mm replacement; probably another .45.

 

[itsbob]

Ever shoot an AR-10? Fires .308, is available now, and the kick is not bad.

The .223 was developed with our field philosophy in mind; never leave a man down. So you wound one and take out three as two have to carry him off. Other forces don't operate that way. Get hit; tough luck. Lay there; we might get back to you, but don't hold your breath. The Pentagon is getting to realize that and are looking at guns with better hitting power looking to drop the 9mm and the .223. The compete is already on for 9mm replacement; probably another .45.

Leitner-Wise, and a couple of other companies sell a conversion kit (upper Receiver) to upgun an M16/AR15 to a modified .50 Caliber.. They are trying to sell it to the US military as a way to defeat the AK-47... http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=m16_50.htm

Our Recon Unit never had the 9mm issued.. when they tried to give us the 9 for an issue sidearm, we found .45 grease guns still in the inventory and carried those instead. and when you have 2 people and a bag of 50 - 30 round magazines to split bewteen the two of you.. gives you a warm fuzzy feeling.


And as far as the hollow points.. I'm sure our troops would like them to be using hollow points.. body armor is a lot more effective against Hollow Point ammo then Full Jacketed ammo.