Celibacy

[itsbob]

Since you seem to be harping on what I said.

What is the sin that a baby is born with?? What exactly is the Original Sin??

Yanno, I wouldn't be anti-catholic because of the pedophiles, I'm anti-catholic because the CHURCH covered it up while their priests kept abusing little boys. THAT to me is an unforgivable sin. It wasn't a priest that covered it up, it wasn't a single bishop or cardinal that covered it up, it was the entire church leadership that did it, and not ONE has been punished for the damage they have done..

But I guess if they can sin like they did without fear of what awaits them on the other side, maybe they know something we don't.

and yanno what else, I'm not even anti-catholic, I bet I have friends that are catholic and they are free to believe what they want.. I'm purely anti-catholic church.

So take you piousness somewhere else, it ain't sellin to well here.

 

[awg9tech]

Yanno, I wouldn't be anti-catholic because of the pedophiles, I'm anti-catholic because the CHURCH covered it up while their priests kept abusing little boys. THAT to me is an unforgivable sin.

So basically, your anti-Catholic because the news reported the molestation/cover-up. How many protestant pastors have been accused and/or convicted of molestation? How many convictions/cover-ups would it take for you to be ant-Protestant?

 

[itsbob]

So basically, your anti-Catholic because the news reported the molestation/cover-up. How many protestant pastors have been accused and/or convicted of molestation? How many convictions/cover-ups would it take for you to be ant-Protestant?

We had a minister when I was growing up that was convicted back in the 70's. The church didn't cover it up, they didn't transfer him, they sent in the law before he could molest anyone else. So don't try to put the blame on the press, they didn't transfer the priests to new parrish's, they didn't hide the facts. In this case thank God (funny isn't it) for the press.

Like I said before, I'm not anti catholic because of the child molestation, I am because the church covered it up, AND KNOWINGLY let it continue.

I don't recollect any stories in my lifetime that ever implicated an entire church to crimes as these.

Your argument is weak.

If it was ANY other entitiy but a church they all would have been rounded up and sent to jail.

 

[vraiblonde]

Where else would we get that special state?

Uh...some Pope made it up out of thin air?

God has had many chosen people - David, Joshua, Abraham, Moses... There has been no suggestion that any of them were of immaculate conception.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt anyone to deify Mary so have at it. :shrug:

 

[Fred Hoeck]

Original sin is the sin of Adam and Eve. It could only be removed by God. He became man and dwelt amongst us. He had to be incarnated and grow and be born in a clean womb, free of Original sin, so Mary was free of Original Sin from the moment of her conception. She was the only one to be in this state. All the reset of mankind must be baptised to be made free of Original Sin.

As for the Assumption, read in the Apocolypse, (the last book of the Bible) where it is said that after the women gave birth, she was taken away, ie. the Assumption of Mary.

 

[itsbob]

We had a minister when I was growing up that was convicted back in the 70's. The church didn't cover it up, they didn't transfer him, they sent in the law before he could molest anyone else. So don't try to put the blame on the press, they didn't transfer the priests to new parrish's, they didn't hide the facts. In this case thank God (funny isn't it) for the press.

Like I said before, I'm not anti catholic because of the child molestation, I am because the church covered it up, AND KNOWINGLY let it continue.

I don't recollect any stories in my lifetime that ever implicated an entire church to crimes as these.

Your argument is weak.

If it was ANY other entitiy but a church they all would have been rounded up and sent to jail.

OOOOH I got red karma for telling the TRUTH.. now I'm going to cry, you hurt my fellings..

 

[Hessian]

American Catholics...

Have a distinct amount of questioning "in-Bred" in them.
They are more likely to challenge some of the precepts of the Church.
They may also be more likely to read scripture to consider the validity of some of the practices.--Not soley believing the teachings of their priest.

It is possible that thousands of American Catholics have thus altered some of their personal beliefs ...but are not willing to leave the church.-Others have moved toward sola scriptura--and become protestant-yet still like the liturgical practices of the "high" church. (Compared to the game-show atmosphere of many protestant churches today)

Yes Rraley--this type of discussion is a pleasant freedom we can enjoy (for now)--it has only been a few decades since this openess has been welcomed.
I fear that the years ahead will have increasing PC & postmodernist intolerance--designed to stifle open religious debate/discussion.

Cheers,
Hessian (Proudly singing Ein Feste Burg before battle--with a Catholic comrade!!)

 

[awg9tech]

We had a minister when I was growing up that was convicted back in the 70's. The church didn't cover it up, they didn't transfer him, they sent in the law before he could molest anyone else. So don't try to put the blame on the press, they didn't transfer the priests to new parrish's, they didn't hide the facts. In this case thank God (funny isn't it) for the press.

Like I said before, I'm not anti catholic because of the child molestation, I am because the church covered it up, AND KNOWINGLY let it continue.

Good to know that there has been only one case of molestation and no cover-ups in the Protestant churches. I keep forgetting that if the press doesn’t repot it, it doesn’t happen.
http://www.reformation.com/CSA/allabuse.html

 

[2ndAmendment]

Check the Catechism:
1579 All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permant deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the afairs of the Lord", they give themselves entirely to God and to men.

re the Immaculate Conception of Mary, it means that Mary was conceived without Original Sin.
in the Catechism, 490: ... The angel Gabriel at the moment of the Annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".
491: the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was proclaimed by Blessed Pope Pius IX: "The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conseption, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin"
Note: the BVM had a father and mother.

Catholic Catechism. Glad it works for you. It does not for me.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Scriptural reference for the Immaculate Concept of Mary, the Mother of God...

Genesis 3:15


This is the first instance of the Bible referring to the Redemption of the first sin and it refers explicitly to the key stance of the Virgin Mary ini this redemption. This passage suggests that God will put a special position of enmity between not only Jesus and Satan, but also Mary and Satan.

Wow. Is that a stretch.

Luke 1:28



This passage suggests a special state of grace upon Mary. This special state can only occur from Immaculate Conception.

I will concede to 2A that the Assumption is not found in Scripture. However, early Christians did celebrate the feast consistently from the 5th Century on. Catholic Tradition, based on the actions of early Christians who had a clearer view of Christ due to their proximity in time, can and should play a major part in the definition of dogma. While 2A is correct in saying that many of these things were not officially declared until later, this should not lead to the preclusion of these feasts and ideas from consideration of for denial. The practices are long-standing and are directly from the earliest Christians.

And 2A, Purgatory, as it is called, is not explicitly in the Bible. A status where souls are purified is referred to, and Catholic teachers used the term Purgatory to classify it. Would you rather call this status the soul-purification status? It's the same thing.

rr,
What do you do with this?

Matthew 12:46-50

46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.

47Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"

49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!

50"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

Not particularly "special" in Jesus' words. Of course He loved His mother, but she was just a human like all of us. She said so herself calling herself humble and a bondslave.

Luke 1:46-55

46And Mary said:
"My soul exalts the Lord,
47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48"For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
49"For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.
50"AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.
51"He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
52"He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has exalted those who were humble.
53"HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
54"He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and his descendants forever."

She, of course, is recognized as the mother of Jesus. She is special in that regard, but nowhere in the Bible does it say she was born without sin.

 

[citysherry]

...I wouldn't be anti-catholic because of the pedophiles, I'm anti-catholic because the CHURCH covered it up while their priests kept abusing little boys. THAT to me is an unforgivable sin. It wasn't a priest that covered it up, it wasn't a single bishop or cardinal that covered it up, it was the entire church leadership that did it, and not ONE has been punished for the damage they have done....

I don't believe priests are guaranteed by the church to be good men - I never have believed this of priests. Yes, the pedophile priests and those that covered for them hurt the church and profoundly hurt and disgusted the Laity of the church. However, this didn’t cause me to question my faithfulness to the church because I was taught and still believe that faithfulness is in no way dependent upon the behavior of priests, or of anyone else. Actually, what angered me more was that the pedophile priests and the church’s coverup could never have happened without the complicity of the parents of the abused children.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Uh...some Pope made it up out of thin air?

God has had many chosen people - David, Joshua, Abraham, Moses... There has been no suggestion that any of them were of immaculate conception.

Regardless, it doesn't hurt anyone to deify Mary so have at it. :shrug:

That is the point. Mary is not a deity. She is not equivalent with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. To claim Immaculate Conception and Assumption put her equal to Jesus in those two aspects. Those concepts are not in the Bible, and it is wrong to equate Mary to Jesus at any level. These concepts are only two of the issues that separate Catholic and Protestant and these two are quite large.

But, as rr posted, Christians are distracted by our differences and we should be bonded together by our faith in Jesus. We see through a glass darkly. Our knowledge is imperfect. It will be perfected when we are greeted by Christ. It is to our detriment that Christians argue of which Bible or what church is right. We should not be Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, or whatever; we should be Christians.

When someone asks me what religion I am, I respond not with a denomination but with the simple proclamation, "I am a Christian."

 

[vraiblonde]

Those concepts are not in the Bible, and it is wrong to equate Mary to Jesus at any level.

You should be thrilled when people believe something you believe to be spiritually wrong. More room for you at the pearly gates.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Original sin is the sin of Adam and Eve. It could only be removed by God. He became man and dwelt amongst us. He had to be incarnated and grow and be born in a clean womb, free of Original sin, so Mary was free of Original Sin from the moment of her conception. She was the only one to be in this state. All the reset of mankind must be baptised to be made free of Original Sin.

As for the Assumption, read in the Apocolypse, (the last book of the Bible) where it is said that after the women gave birth, she was taken away, ie. the Assumption of Mary.

Sorry, but you will not find that Mary was without sin anywhere in the Bible. It is not there. And your interpretation of the woman in Revelation in out of context, and it does not say she was taken away but that she fled into the wilderness. It is Revelation 12 for those that would like to read it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

You should be thrilled when people believe something you believe to be spiritually wrong. More room for you at the pearly gates.

No. Not at all. There is room for all mankind.

 

[MMDad]

No. Not at all. There is room for all mankind.

2A, can you add anything to the original question? Is there anything in the bible to support celibacy by clergy?

 

[itsbob]

Good to know that there has been only one case of molestation and no cover-ups in the Protestant churches. I keep forgetting that if the press doesn’t repot it, it doesn’t happen.
http://www.reformation.com/CSA/allabuse.html

"I fear that some 400 ex-Roman Catholic priests will surface in other denominations including the Episcopal Church." (Aug. 2, 2003)

4OO HUNDRED former priests that were cast out for molesting boys.. AFTER they were brought to the publics attention.

The pastor of Christ Church, the Rev. John Guest, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that Valencia was dismissed in late 2001 because he was found to have pornography on an office computer after he was warned about a similar incident months earlier.

Doesn't sound like much of a cover-up there, they didnt even suspect him of molesting anyone, they just found pictures on his computer and sacked him.

I've read about 50 of these incidents and only saw ONE mention of a POSSIBLE cover up in ONE church.. None of them mentioned a conspiracy of church leadership, or that the pastors, ministers and priests molesting boys was known to anyone else other then the victim. NONE of them mention getting transferred after getting caught molesting children..

All you have provided is proof that organized religion may not be as holy white and pure as it seems.

AGAIN, I fault no-one for their beliefs or religious convictions, I'm not anti-catholic, anti-jew, anti-muslim nor am I anti-buddhist, believe what you must to make yourself happy and be well adjusted. I like to think I'm very receptive to different people and lifestyles, and seem to get along with anyone, but I can just as well debate with anyone too.

You should be just as happy to let me not believe, or belive in the FSM if I so chose. Just becasue someone told you theirs is the only right choice does not make it true.

 

[2ndAmendment]

2A, can you add anything to the original question? Is there anything in the bible to support celibacy by clergy?

1 Corinthians 7 teaches much on celibacy and marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:1-8

1Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman.

2But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband.

3The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

4The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

5Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

6But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

7Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that.

8But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.

So it is not a Biblical command for ministers or priest to remain celibate. There are instructions in Timothy on being an "overseer" or head of a congrgation and on being a deacon.

1 Timothy 3:1-3

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

1 Timothy 3:8-13

8Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

9but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

10These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

12Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[MMDad]

Thanks, 2A. I had been told there was nothing to support celibacy. Thanks for clearing up what actually is and is not there.

 

[awg9tech]

I've read about 50 of these incidents and only saw ONE mention of a POSSIBLE cover up in ONE church..

So, it's a matter of numbers? That's why I asked earlier how many would it take for you to be anti-Protestant. One could argue that proportionally there are just as many cover-ups in any other church, it’s just not sensational news.

I'm anti-catholic

I'm purely anti-catholic church

I'm not anti-catholic, anti-jew, anti-muslim nor am I anti-buddhist