ChuckT--Man up or Shut up

[Midnightrider]

We have a guy at church who asked me to start a church just to take people's money. I said, "no". He said we could just rent a room and buy some chairs. I said, "no".

sounds like a great group you got yourself involved with there skippy

Onel0126, I believe you just want to attack me. You don't want to be accountable to what God says or what the Bible says so when you start attacking me, you want me to shift from the Bible to defending myself and that is a shame. In other words, you want to make the debate ad hominem or "against the man" because you don't want to answer to what God says in His word when your faith is compared to the Bible. I don't want to get involved in that. I'm just going to hold you to the Bible.

that's hilarious coming from a guy who has made every effort to attack Catholics. you don't really want to discuss the bible, because the undeniable fact is that the catholics were/are the custodians of the bible. They know it best because they wrote and rewrote it over the centuries. they also have ALL of the supporting documents. you new starts are funny in claiming that you know the bible better than the people who gave it to you in the first place.

Yeah, that. I stuck my foot in my mouth for omitting the label. But I agree - I do the same. Just hold Catholics, and anyone else, to the Biblical standard that is the measuring stick. Not real difficult to understand.

that isn't for you to measure, at least not if you are a Christian. that's not real difficult to understand either

 

[b23hqb]

sounds like a great group you got yourself involved with there skippy


that's hilarious coming from a guy who has made every effort to attack Catholics. you don't really want to discuss the bible, because the undeniable fact is that the catholics were/are the custodians of the bible. They know it best because they wrote and rewrote it over the centuries. they also have ALL of the supporting documents. you new starts are funny in claiming that you know the bible better than the people who gave it to you in the first place.


that isn't for you to measure, at least not if you are a Christian. that's not real difficult to understand either

I didn't, and don't, measure anybody - the Bible does that. Anybody can determine their status by an honest self-examination against the Bible. Everybody, including myself, is measured by that. It's either a pass or fail. I put the Bible up as my standard, my foundation. It's not hard to determine by witness if one adheres to or believes what the Bible says. I'm sticking to it.

 

[Radiant1]

Yeah, that. I stuck my foot in my mouth for omitting the label. But I agree - I do the same. Just hold Catholics, and anyone else, to my standard that is my measuring stick. Not real difficult to understand.

Also fixed.

As we saw in another thread, when Catholics were told our doctrine wasn't biblical and more scripture than you could read in a day was presented to prove that accusation wrong, we were told that our reasoning behind it was wrong and the discussion was then deliberately diverted to something else by the accuser. We don't have a problem with anyone holding us to a biblical standard because the Catholic Church created scripture to begin with, but rather what we have a problem with is the myriads and numerous interpretations of what the Protestants claim the bible says. Catholics have a Christ-given authority for that standard and we stick to it and because of that we are ONE exactly as Christ repeatedly said He wanted it. Protestants have no authority, and frankly it becomes kind of amusing when they attempt to tell anyone what the bible says, how it should be viewed, or accuse anyone of being unbiblical; and ironically by doing so they make themselves hypocrites who can't even follow their own doctrine. Truly, if you think everyone can interpret scripture for themselves, then let everyone do just that, and sit down and shut up.

 

[b23hqb]

Just read the comics, and a perfect example today of taking things out of context and running with. And from my favorite strip as well:

http://www.arcamax.com/thefunnies/dilbert/

We're familiar with your work, Dick from the internet.....

 

[Radiant1]

I didn't, and don't, measure anybody - the Bible does that. Anybody can determine their status by an honest self-examination against the Bible. Everybody, including myself, is measured by that. It's either a pass or fail. I put the Bible up as my standard, my foundation. It's not hard to determine by witness if one adheres to or believes what the Bible says. I'm sticking to it.

By interpreting for yourself you can make scripture say anything you want it to, which renders the Word of God impotent. Christ knew that, which is why He gave us an authority and it's not you, or chuck, or me, or Suzy, or little Johnny either.

 

[b23hqb]

By interpreting for yourself you can make scripture say anything you want it to, which renders the Word of God impotent. Christ knew that, which is why He gave us an authority and it's not you, or chuck, or me, or Suzy, or little Johnny either.

Words do mean things. They have definitive definitions. Anyone that can read is able to, with even a bit of investigation, determine what something says, especially in context with related items. It's when things are made up, taken or twisted out of the contectual standings, that all have the right to dispute against a base standing.

 

[Amused_despair]

Just read the comics, and a perfect example today of taking things out of context and running with. And from my favorite strip as well:

http://www.arcamax.com/thefunnies/dilbert/

We're familiar with your work, Dick from the internet.....

Taking things out of context? You wrote "I hate catholics." It was an honest moment for you, probably a rare thing for you. Embrace it like you embrace your hatred. Kind of wishy-washy to go back and claim it was missing the "sarcasm" indicator when you get called out on it. You don't want your hateful comments to be quoted, don't make hateful comments.

 

[Gilligan]

Druids love everyone. Well..except for Romans..we hate Romans.

 

[Radiant1]

Words do mean things. They have definitive definitions. Anyone that can read is able to, with even a bit of investigation, determine what something says, especially in context with related items. It's when things are made up, taken or twisted out of the contectual standings, that all have the right to dispute against a base standing.

Right, I've called you and chuck out on context numerous times. There truly is no base standing as far as personal interpretation is concerned. You can accuse others of taking things out of context or making stuff up, and they would accuse you of the same. Who is right? You still have a dilemma.

 

[Midnightrider]

I didn't, and don't, measure anybody - the Bible does that. Anybody can determine their status by an honest self-examination against the Bible. Everybody, including myself, is measured by that. It's either a pass or fail. I put the Bible up as my standard, my foundation. It's not hard to determine by witness if one adheres to or believes what the Bible says. I'm sticking to it.

if you don't measure you don't need a standard by which to judge.....

the catholics wrote the book, have maintained the book, and have ALL of the supporting documents. Yet somehow you think you have come to a better understanding of scripture based on things you have been told and your own INTERPRETATION. I have news for you, if your god hates the same things you do, then you have made him in your image, not the other way around.

 

[Chuckt]

if you don't measure you don't need a standard by which to judge.....

the catholics wrote the book, have maintained the book, and have ALL of the supporting documents. Yet somehow you think you have come to a better understanding of scripture based on things you have been told and your own INTERPRETATION. I have news for you, if your god hates the same things you do, then you have made him in your image, not the other way around.

What do you mean they maintained the book or wrote the book?
Why does the Catholic church not stand by the book? There is a Time's article in the UK that the Catholic Church no longer stands by the Bible.

You can claim all you want but the fact is they aren't living fully by the book nor do they stand by the book.

 

[Chuckt]

if you don't measure you don't need a standard by which to judge.....

the catholics wrote the book, have maintained the book, and have ALL of the supporting documents. Yet somehow you think you have come to a better understanding of scripture based on things you have been told and your own INTERPRETATION. I have news for you, if your god hates the same things you do, then you have made him in your image, not the other way around.

Incorrect.

Third, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament which is the Scripture to which Christ and the apostles appealed. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to state that it gave us the Bible, then how can they rightfully claim to have given us the Old Testament which is part of the Bible? It didn't, so it cannot make that claim. The fact is that the followers of God, the true followers of God, recognize what is and is not inspired.

https://carm.org/did-roman-catholic-church-give-us-our-bible

First of all, the Roman Catholic Church was not really around as an organization in the first couple hundred years of the Christian Church. The Christian church was under persecution, and official church gatherings were very risky in the Roman Empire due to the persecution. Catholicism, as an organization with a central figure located in Rome, did not occur for quite some time in spite of its claim they can trace the papacy back to Peter.

-Ibid.

 

[Chuckt]

Did the catholic church give us the bible?

DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE?

Teachings Not Biblical

Point #4 - If the Catholic Church really did give us the Bible, then why do so many of its teachings either contradict the Scriptures, or cannot be found within its pages (e.g., doctrines like confession to a priest, Mary’s sinless birth and life, Mary’s Assumption into Heaven, indulgences, Purgatory, the Treasury of Merit, the office of pope, praying to saints, etc., etc.)? Interestingly, we find none of these in the Bible they claim to have given us.

Conclusion

The implications of all this are sobering and far-reaching. When Catholics say that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible, they are in effect saying that this Church (along with its “Tradition”) is the final authority, and that we must submit to them. They are implying that the Bible gets its authority from that Church and only they have the authority to properly interpret it. But this is certainly not true. The universal church recognized the inspired writings. However, the Scriptures are not “church-breathed,” but God-breathed (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/02/did-catholic-church-give-us-bible.html

 

[Midnightrider]

Incorrect.



https://carm.org/did-roman-catholic-church-give-us-our-bible



-Ibid.

so you are taking the word of some guy on the internet over the word of the custodians of christiantiy's history and documentation? thats rich.

the catholic church wrote and rewrote the bible. you can pretend that isn't the way it happened, but they did. they also decided which books not to include, AND they have all of the associate documents. you speak from a place of ignorance, yet they have all of the information. you are like a teenager who is convinced they are both invincible and smarter than their parents. Your 'church' sprung up in the last few years but you want to criticize the parent religion that has existed for nearly 2000.

and in all that instead of finding scripture to defend your position you cut and paste what some guy said. sounds solascripture to me

 

[Bird Dog]

so you are taking the word of some guy on the internet over the word of the custodians of christiantiy's history and documentation? thats rich.

the catholic church wrote and rewrote the bible. you can pretend that isn't the way it happened, but they did. they also decided which books not to include, AND they have all of the associate documents. you speak from a place of ignorance, yet they have all of the information. you are like a teenager who is convinced they are both invincible and smarter than their parents. Your 'church' sprung up in the last few years but you want to criticize the parent religion that has existed for nearly 2000.

and in all that instead of finding scripture to defend your position you cut and paste what some guy said. sounds solascripture to me

You're trying to explain the color red to a blind man...............

 

[Gilligan]

You're trying to explain the color red to a blind man...............

Well, if anyone is up to that task, it's MR. I think he should continue his efforts. Even someone as obtuse as ole Chuck has to have endurance limits

 

[Radiant1]

What do you mean they maintained the book or wrote the book?
Why does the Catholic church not stand by the book? There is a Time's article in the UK that the Catholic Church no longer stands by the Bible.

You can claim all you want but the fact is they aren't living fully by the book nor do they stand by the book.

Incorrect.

https://carm.org/did-roman-catholic-church-give-us-our-bible

-Ibid.

DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE?

http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/02/did-catholic-church-give-us-bible.html

You state your personal opinions as fact as if they are a given authority for everyone, and still to this day fail to address the conundrum you have of allowing everyone to interpret scripture for themselves but yet telling them how to do so.

Since the Protestant church wasn't in existence until the 1500s, we can be pretty darn sure it wasn't Protestants who gave us the bible and it didn't just magically appear out of no where. If the Apostolic Church aka Catholic Church is the only one who can trace it's history to Christ it is quite apparent that the bible came from the Catholic Church. There was no bible in the very early Church; the bible is a result of the Church, not the Church a result of the bible.

Let's take a look at a non-biased source about Protestants and their bible. There's a lot more in the article, but I only need this one line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Early_Church

"In practice, most Protestants hold to the Jewish Tanakh for the Old Testament and the Roman Catholic canon for the New Testament."​

The early Church used the Septuagint for it's OT scriptures, which of course is why it's the Catholic OT. The Tanakh wasn't even in existence at the time of Christ so Jesus Himself didn't use the Tanakh but what was found in the Septuagint. Why would Protestants choose to use a condensed version of the OT that Jesus never used? (I have the answer to that if anyone really wants to know). Why did Protestants ultimately go with the Roman Catholic version of the NT and not some other version? Because it was the only version. Apparently, Luther attempted to drop some of those OT books that didn't jive with sola scriptura, but his followers balked so he kept them in. (I'm not kidding you, read the article in it's entirety).

Truly, it takes a lot of cognitive dissonance to reject the Catholic Church as the source of the NT, and frankly, a lot of balls to reject the OT that Christ Himself used. And those people want to hypocritically declare themselves an authority on scripture? Heh.

 

[kom526]

I have news for you, if your god hates the same things you do, then you have made him in your image, not the other way around.

 

[b23hqb]

if you don't measure you don't need a standard by which to judge.....

the catholics wrote the book, have maintained the book, and have ALL of the supporting documents. Yet somehow you think you have come to a better understanding of scripture based on things you have been told and your own INTERPRETATION. I have news for you, if your god hates the same things you do, then you have made him in your image, not the other way around.

They thought they had it right, until that good old Catholic Luther saw the light, the truth, and exposed it to the world. But we've been over that many times. I do believe most Protestants see the scripture more clearly, and in the context of scripture only, not man-made doctrine. Read it for yourself - no one needs to be told anything about the Bible, but you need to check it out for yourself. As far as being "told things" how about starting with a few tidbits of good old catholic teachings like the, say, little number of 2,865 catechisms? No one is told to read those, are they? It's all voluntary? And completely aside from the scriptures, right? That's a shelf of commentary itself on the discrepancies between those and the Bible.

The Bible is the measuring stick, and like I said, any honest self examination will find us all to fall short. The answer lies in His Word only. If you want to call that measuring others, which I'm not, go ahead.

 

[b23hqb]

Right, I've called you and chuck out on context numerous times. There truly is no base standing as far as personal interpretation is concerned. You can accuse others of taking things out of context or making stuff up, and they would accuse you of the same. Who is right? You still have a dilemma.

I have no dilemma. If you say I have taken things out of context, so be it. In this instance on this thread, just admit my first sentence was negated by the following sentence, as it was fully intended to be, and should have been seen that way.

Try to clear your mind of all your catholic teachings and indoctrination. Sit down and read the NT by itself, those words only. I, and every other born again believer, have done that and reached the same conclusion without other doctrine that is NOT in the bible. Yes, there are vastly more knowledgeable biblical scholars to help one along, but it is biblical. The Gospels are not difficult to understand - everything that God wants us to know is easily discernible concerning the eternal matters, which is the thrust of the entire Bible.

There are areas that we will not understand until God reveals it to us, and there are areas that there can be dispute with different answers possible, and different viewpoints can be seen in context of biblical teaching. But none of those areas concern salvation or eternity, which is the flash point between the rcc and Protestantism. I see things biblically, which is God's intent, through the prism of the Bible only, as the Word was intended and proclaimed by the apostles. You see it through the eyes of rcc teachings that blur, or completely dismiss or ignore much of the NT teachings.

Maranatha.