Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota ...

[Tilted]

Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents - WSJ.com

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes were not engaged, people familiar with the findings said.

The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes. But the findings don't exonerate Toyota from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: sticky accelerator pedals and floor mats that can trap accelerator pedals to the floor.

The findings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration involve a sample of reports in which a driver of a Toyota vehicle said the brakes were depressed but failed to stop the car from accelerating and ultimately crashing.

The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government.

The findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi 5000 sedans.

The Toyota findings, which haven't been released by NHTSA, support Toyota's position that sudden-acceleration reports involving its vehicles weren't caused by electronic glitches in computer-controlled throttle systems, as some safety advocates and plaintiffs' attorneys have alleged. More than 100 people have sued the auto maker claiming crashes were the result of faulty electronics.

NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

However, NHTSA has been able to verify only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position.

Who'da thunk?

 

[GWguy]

So, does this possibly imply that there is an issue with placement or height difference between the pedals such that a panic driver can't tell the difference between them? Kinda tough to be pressing the gas thinking your pressing the brake in so many cases.

 

[aps45819]

So, does this possibly imply that there is an issue with placement or height difference between the pedals such that a panic driver can't tell the difference between them? Kinda tough to be pressing the gas thinking your pressing the brake in so many cases.

There are a LOT of low skill drivers

 

[GWguy]

There are a LOT of low skill drivers

Ok, can't disagree with ya there.... just thinking that it only seems to be a very small handful of particular models that it happens with.

 

[Tilted]

So, does this possibly imply that there is an issue with placement or height difference between the pedals such that a panic driver can't tell the difference between them? Kinda tough to be pressing the gas thinking your pressing the brake in so many cases.

Less than ideal ergonomics may play a role in the incidence rate, but 3,000 complaints (in a decade) doesn't seem like an extraordinarily high number to me considering how many Toyotas are on the road (especially since there was so much public attention, which might have lead to increased reporting).

It should also be noted that, at least according to reports that I read, the incidence of older drivers involved in the unintended acceleration accidents was very high - higher than what might be easily explained as merely coincidental.

 

[glhs837]

Ok, can't disagree with ya there.... just thinking that it only seems to be a very small handful of particular models that it happens with.

Nah, its monkey see, monkey do. Monkey see report of unintended, monkey more likely to panic and think his did so too.

 

[vraiblonde]

It should also be noted that, at least according to reports that I read, the incidence of older drivers involved in the unintended acceleration accidents was very high - higher than what might be easily explained as merely coincidental.

Well there's a shock.

Old people kill, I'm tellin' ya.

 

[Pushrod]

Well there's a shock.

Old people kill, I'm tellin' ya.

Only cops and the military should be able to have old people.

 

[vraiblonde]

Only cops and the military should be able to have old people.

And only after proper training.

 

[Larry Gude]

I thought we already knew, based on data of comparable complaints of other brands over time, that this was all a load of crap?

 

[aps45819]

Ok, can't disagree with ya there.... just thinking that it only seems to be a very small handful of particular models that it happens with.

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes were not engaged, people familiar with the findings said.

With electronic throttles and ABS brakes it could still be a problem with the cars

 

[Larry Gude]

With electronic throttles and ABS brakes it could still be a problem with the cars

Drive my wire.

 

[aps45819]

Drive my wire.

No thanks, I'll drive my own

 

[Larry Gude]

No thanks, I'll drive my own

Can I buy a vowel???

 

[glhs837]

With electronic throttles and ABS brakes it could still be a problem with the cars

Could be. And I could be powered by an arc generator, but I'm not. And this answers Larrys question. We, car guys anyway, knew it was crap. But now we have real, incontrovertible data, taken from the black boxes, that its NOT the ETC, nor the ABS, or the ESP, or the BAS, nor any other of the alphabet soup of interrelated systems.

If your throttle is stuck, you can %99 of the time stop the car.

 

[Tilted]

Well there's a shock.

Old people kill, I'm tellin' ya.

Age-ist.

 

[Tilted]

I thought we already knew, based on data of comparable complaints of other brands over time, that this was all a load of crap?

We did. But now a government agency is endorsing our belief, so we can start second guessing the veracity of it.

 

[GWguy]

With electronic throttles and ABS brakes it could still be a problem with the cars

Not saying there still couldn't be an issue with that, but as you quoted, the accel was depressed and the brake was not. Operator pushing the wrong pedal, unless the entire telemetry system was hosed and providing incorrect sensor data, which is entirely possible. Just because the computer thinks a pedal is depressed doesn't mean it really was.

 

[aps45819]

Not saying there still couldn't be an issue with that, but as you quoted, the accel was depressed and the brake was not. Operator pushing the wrong pedal, unless the entire telemetry system was hosed and providing incorrect sensor data, which is entirely possible. Just because the computer thinks a pedal is depressed doesn't mean it really was.

"Throttle open" and "pedal depressed" are not the same in a drive by wire vehicle.

Maybe they used Vista to program the ECUs

 

[glhs837]

Given the redundancy of ETC systems, and brakes, it would be very hard to conceive of a failure mode that could led to this. The whole network could be hosed, in such a way that it doesnt know it and just default to limp mode, but then you get into Occams Razor.

The odds of this happening in such way as to leave no electronic trace, compared to the odds of idiocy in the human drivers? I'll bet on Skynet every time