Death at the Brass Rail

[kom526]

Look folks, this is actually a good thing. Now this idiot cannot procreate and the other idiot will prolly do some time preventing him from procreating.

I look for the strawberry in everything.

His girlfriend is pregnant according to the comments I read. Don't expect a thank you note for helping foot that bill.

 

[inkah12102]

So, the man's FATHER was there and the best he had was to ask the responders why they weren't helping?

I wonder what it was about the scene that scared EMS - was it simply the description that came over the radio? Was it violent when they got there? Was it just too dark? What?

Was there ever a point where someone realized the man was dying?

Couldn't a friend or family have removed the man from the scene in order to allow paramedics to help in a "safer" environment?

Were there ANY alternate suggestions made by either EMT or friends and family??

Did the family try in ANY way to help their own? How about getting verbal help from EMT - as in "place your hands here, and count while pressing...?

Trading a life for protocol seems pretty harsh for a "friendly" scene. Doesn't really look like either side is at all interested in finding any resolution and nobody seems to be looking in the mirror here. All defensiveness, accusation and bigotry. Nothing will change.

Responses to the article from BOTH sides seem piggish and ignorant. My favorite: "If you don't like it, LEAVE." Heaven forbid we try to be better.

 

[aps45819]

Trading a life for protocol seems pretty harsh for a "friendly" scene.

Somebody probably died to establish the protocol




... and people don't get choked to death in a friendly setting

 

[inkah12102]

Somebody probably died to establish the protocol

... and people don't get choked to death in a friendly setting

How does the call to "stage" get made? And what was the basis for it in this case?

 

[kom526]

How does the call to "stage" get made? And what was the basis for it in this case?

The complaintant called the control tower (911) how are they to know they were "play fighting"? As far as the caller knew there was a fight going on.:shrug:

 

[inkah12102]

The complaintant called the control tower (911) how are they to know they were "play fighting"? As far as the caller knew there was a fight going on.:shrug:

did you listen to the recording? the very first thing that came out was that it was a play fight w/ friends

:shrug:

 

[inkah12102]

The complaintant called the control tower (911) how are they to know they were "play fighting"? As far as the caller knew there was a fight going on.:shrug:

surely the caller doesn't make a stage call

does the 911 operator give that order? (doesn't seem so, since in the recording you hear her say, "He has them staging")

Who decided and why - that is what I am wondering.

 

[mdff21]

Any type of call that involves a fight, assault, drugs (overdose) where weapons may be prresent the first responderes are told the scene is not secure. Once they get that message, the protocal of staging comes into play. The protocal is not a St. Mary's thing or a volunteer thing, it is a national thing that career departments have to follow. The first responders are REQUIRED to stage in an area of close proximity until law enforcement arrives. Once law enforcements arrives and insures that the scene is safe, the first responders move in to treat the victim. There have been recorded instances where the crowd or patient (overdoses) turned on the first responders for treating the victim.

Those of you that are upset by this, put yourself in the shoes of the first responders....you are responding to a bar fight and find a victim down, you rush in and the suspect pulls a gun on you and says, let him die. What are you going to do?

Sadly, that message was not sent as the dispatcher was unaware of the situation in West Webster New York. The fire department was dispatched for a fire and upon arrival 4 firefighters were shot, killing 2 of them. The fire department then back out of the area until the police could secure the area.

 

[CobbWeb]

Ok

did you listen to the recording? the very first thing that came out was that it was a play fight w/ friends

:shrug:

And no one would ever make a statement that was not completely accurate to avoid getting into trouble.

The dispatcher and the responders make the decision whether to stage or not based on the available information. If there is potential for scene to be unsafe they will stage and wait for Police to advise.

 

[inkah]

Any type of call that involves a fight, assault, drugs (overdose) where weapons may be prresent the first responderes are told the scene is not secure. Once they get that message, the protocal of staging comes into play. The protocal is not a St. Mary's thing or a volunteer thing, it is a national thing that career departments have to follow. The first responders are REQUIRED to stage in an area of close proximity until law enforcement arrives. Once law enforcements arrives and insures that the scene is safe, the first responders move in to treat the victim. There have been recorded instances where the crowd or patient (overdoses) turned on the first responders for treating the victim.

Those of you that are upset by this, put yourself in the shoes of the first responders....you are responding to a bar fight and find a victim down, you rush in and the suspect pulls a gun on you and says, let him die. What are you going to do

Sadly, that message was not sent as the dispatcher was unaware of the situation in West Webster New York. The fire department was dispatched for a fire and upon arrival 4 firefighters were shot, killing 2 of them. The fire department then back out of the area until the police could secure the area.

did ANY of that happen here? Did you listen to the recording? The very first thing the dispatcher said was "play fight". Who decided the situation was violent and why? Do you have an answer? Or just another emotionally charged, yet unrelated story?

 

[inkah]

And no one would ever make a statement that was not completely accurate to avoid getting into trouble.

The dispatcher and the responders make the decision whether to stage or not based on the available information. If there is potential for scene to be unsafe they will stage and wait for Police to advise.

The responders decided then? Did you listen to the recording?? Did the responder decide before or after he got there? What specifically was the basis of his decision?

 

[mdff21]

The optimum word here is FIGHT!! Yes they did say play fight, however how many times has playing (horse playing) turned into something more than "play". At what point did this "play fight" become so intense that some one died at the hands of another. It will be interesting to see what the State's Attorney does with this.

 

[Baja28]

The responders decided then? Did you listen to the recording?? Did the responder decide before or after he got there? What specifically was the basis of his decision?

How thick headed are you?

It was a call to a bar known for it's fights and violence.

Why don't you get yourself certified in emergency medicine, buy yourself a pocket scanner and ride around on weekends so you can rush in and save the drunk combatants from each other?

 

[inkah]

How thick headed are you?

It was a call to a bar known for it's fights and violence.

Why don't you get yourself certified in emergency medicine, buy yourself a pocket scanner and ride around on weekends so you can rush in and save the drunk combatants from each other?

I am actually not thick headed. I would say folks that have a hard time asking and answering honest questions are more likely the thick-headed ones. Why is it so offensive to you to when folks don't just automatically assume that our public servants have acted appropriately? It worries me when questions and a refusal to make assumptions are cause for such defensive responses. Do you not realize that intimidation doesn't resolve concerns? We should all make it a habit to be highly skeptical of the story of anyone who resorts to intimidation tactics in the face of questions. It makes you look like you know there is something to hide.

Oh, and before you assume I even want to save drunken combative fools, ask me what I think. Maybe I really don't give a rats ass if one of them died. Maybe I do. Either way, you don't know because I haven't given you the information.

Bully on, Sunshine.

 

[Salvador]

I am actually not thick headed. I would say folks that have a hard time asking and answering honest questions are more likely the thick-headed ones. Why is it so offensive to you to when folks don't just automatically assume that our public servants have acted appropriately? It worries me when questions and a refusal to make assumptions are cause for such defensive responses. Do you not realize that intimidation doesn't resolve concerns? We should all make it a habit to be highly skeptically of the story of anyone who resorts to intimidation tactics in the face of questions. It makes you look like you know there is something to hide.

Oh, and before you assume I even want to save drunken combative fools, ask me what I think. Maybe I really don't give a rats ass if one of them died. Maybe I do. Either way, you don't know because I haven't given you the information.

Bully on, Sunshine.

 

[LuckyMe143]

The only people you can blame for this is the two stupid dummies who were " play fighting". Because two grown a$$ "men" don't know how to act in a bar a child will be born without a father. Seriously people think before you act.

 

[MMM_donuts]

How thick headed are you?

It was a call to a bar known for it's fights and violence.

Why don't you get yourself certified in emergency medicine, buy yourself a pocket scanner and ride around on weekends so you can rush in and save the drunk combatants from each other?

I understand making sure the situation is safe before putting yourself out there. It makes perfect sense. And it makes sense that an extra amount of caution is taken in a bar situation since alcohol causes people to act in irrational ways.

It's just difficult to understand how people that have the opportunity to help, whose job it is to help, could sit by and watch someone die in a situation which seems to have been pretty harmless. So harmless that the cops diverted to respond to other more urgent calls.

It's really sad. Just because a couple of kids were at a bar, drinking, and horsing around doesn't mean that they deserve to be left to die in the event if an accident, IMO. My husband and I plan on discussing this with our first responder friends.

 

[mdff21]

I understand making sure the situation is safe before putting yourself out there. It makes perfect sense. And it makes sense that an extra amount of caution is taken in a bar situation since alcohol causes people to act in irrational ways.

It's just difficult to understand how people that have the opportunity to help, whose job it is to help, could sit by and watch someone die in a situation which seems to have been pretty harmless. So harmless that the cops diverted to respond to other more urgent calls.

People refer to police and fire calls as routine and harmless. The police were diverted to a call for a person with a gun at a bar, that is considered more serious than a fight. Especially when alcohol is added to the situation. You said it here that "alcohol causes people to act in irrational ways". This is an incident at a bar for a fight which turned into someone losing their life. Could the person have been saved, I wasn't there, so I can't say. I do know that the dispatchers can give and have saved people over the phone with CPR instructions. Why didn't the by-standers attempt to perform CPR, they could have been given the instructions.

West Webster firefighters responded to a house fire...routine right, just a house fire. 2 are dead and 2 in the hospital in guarded condition from gunshot wounds received when the homeowner ambushed them. It is better to be safe and wait for law enforcement than enter into an environment that has the potential to become explosive.

 

[somdforever]

I understand making sure the situation is safe before putting yourself out there. It makes perfect sense. And it makes sense that an extra amount of caution is taken in a bar situation since alcohol causes people to act in irrational ways.

It's just difficult to understand how people that have the opportunity to help, whose job it is to help, could sit by and watch someone die in a situation which seems to have been pretty harmless. So harmless that the cops diverted to respond to other more urgent calls.

It's really sad. Just because a couple of kids were at a bar, drinking, and horsing around doesn't mean that they deserve to be left to die in the event if an accident, IMO. My husband and I plan on discussing this with our first responder friends.

First, you have to ASSUME that the first responders knew the situation was "pretty harmless", which it turned out to be, wasn't. Second, pointing your finger at the first responders is so wrong. They, including the police and EMS, didn't leave anyone to die. Police have priority calls, just as EMS does. When a call goes out for a person with a gun, that call should take priority over subjects fighting, unless that fight also involves weapons. Either way, split-second decisions must be made on the fly, and someone is not going to be happy with whatever decision that may be.

 

[inkah]

It's just difficult to understand how people that have the opportunity to help, whose job it is to help, could sit by and watch someone die in a situation which seems to have been pretty harmless. So harmless that the cops diverted to respond to other more urgent calls.

I am intrigued by the fact that not once is there any sense of urgency communicated in the recordings. Did any family/friend ever notice that he was no longer breathing? Did they communicate that to dispatch or em responders? Why wasn't that communicated to the police? If the dispatch and police didn't think the situation was important enough to warrant immediate response, what was it that made the guy who decided to stage decide the situation was worse than was initially communicated? And why wasn't the urgency communicated?