debate
- Thread starter GOP4me
- Start date
how can you forget about Poland!?!?!?!
"but George is winning"....wow
I was very impressed with how Kerry handled himself
He spoke with confidence and seemed to be in control.
I counted numerous accounts when Bush had blank 5 second pauses. And he always made the same face when it was Kerry's turn to speak. His only rebuttle or argument was yet again saying that Kerry flip-flops...
...I wish they could find another accusation to go against him than that. It gets weaker and weaker the more people use it.
"but George is winning"....wow
I was very impressed with how Kerry handled himself
He spoke with confidence and seemed to be in control.
I counted numerous accounts when Bush had blank 5 second pauses. And he always made the same face when it was Kerry's turn to speak. His only rebuttle or argument was yet again saying that Kerry flip-flops...
...I wish they could find another accusation to go against him than that. It gets weaker and weaker the more people use it.
Rats! No screwdrivers. 
Kerry did a good job - if I were ignorant of history and global events, I'd vote for him. As it stands, his "rush to pre-emptive war" crap won't fly. And the "building a coalition" won't fly either now that we know about France's involvement in the Oil for Food scandal.
Kerry also left a lot of unanswered questions for me:
So is he going to pull troops out of Iraq or stay the course?
Does he support the use of force against Saddam (like he voted for) or does he think we should apologize to Saddam and give him his country back (like he insinuated tonight)?
Bush talks too slow, which is probably good because it means he's thinking before he speaks. But he came across as uncertain and had a lot of pauses and umms. His final statement was Bush at his finest.
I'd call the debate a tie. Kerry had the better appearance and better speaking style but Bush had the substance and the common sense. And Kerry snubbed Jim Lehrer at the end, shook quick with George and then made a beeline to Teresa and left Lehrer standing there with his hand out.
Kerry did a good job - if I were ignorant of history and global events, I'd vote for him. As it stands, his "rush to pre-emptive war" crap won't fly. And the "building a coalition" won't fly either now that we know about France's involvement in the Oil for Food scandal.
Kerry also left a lot of unanswered questions for me:
So is he going to pull troops out of Iraq or stay the course?
Does he support the use of force against Saddam (like he voted for) or does he think we should apologize to Saddam and give him his country back (like he insinuated tonight)?
Bush talks too slow, which is probably good because it means he's thinking before he speaks. But he came across as uncertain and had a lot of pauses and umms. His final statement was Bush at his finest.
I'd call the debate a tie. Kerry had the better appearance and better speaking style but Bush had the substance and the common sense. And Kerry snubbed Jim Lehrer at the end, shook quick with George and then made a beeline to Teresa and left Lehrer standing there with his hand out.
Also, to be fair, Kerry looked perky and fresh - Bush looked tired and distracted. But Bush has been busy visiting hurricane victims since early this morning. Kerry's spent the day having his nails done and his tan toned down.
Don't forget to take the poll!
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For me I would say it was a coin toss with one exception and that was when Kerry said words to the effect that before using force he would have to see how the rest of the world felt about it. Excuse me, but the job is President of the United States of America and not leader of some federation of Earth nations. It is your job to guarantee our security and safety before worrying about what others think we should do. That is a deal breaker for me.
B
Bruzilla
Guest
Speaking personally, I would have to give the edge to Bush, despite the fact that I thought he did a poor job on the mechanics of the debate. I thought the most telling aspect of the debate was how both guys conveyed their information. I guess I've just gotten too used to Kerry's "If elected I promise to..." directness that most politicians use. I found Bush's speaking style to be far more conversational, like he's actually talking to you and not preaching from the mound. I too cringed when Bush had those "deer in the spotlight moments", but for the most part he scored big with me because he didn't sound like all of the other politicans that you hear. Kerry sounded exactly like everyone else.
I also found Kerry used the terms "I have a plan..." or "My plan to..." too much. Ok... so you have a plan... why did you formulate your plan that way and how about at least a brief overview of what your plan is? Bush didn't speak about plans, rather he said what he would do, and more importantly, what he wouldn't do. I much prefered "I think that it's in our best interests to do this..." over "If elected I will do this...!"
I thought the big miss for Kerry was not saying something like "I salute and appreciate the President's service in the National Guard just as I greatly appreciate the sacrifice that our Guardsmen are making today." I think that blowing off Bush's Guard service cost Kerry points with service people... especially since he was so quick to commend himself for his service (at least he didn't say he deserved a Purple Heart for eye strain from the podium lights.) The other big miss was scolding Bush for saying the Chinese would still be involved in unilateral talks with North Korea, despite the fact that the North Koreans just walked out of and stopped talks with China until after the election so they can see who wins. Big oopsie there!
The big miss for Bush was not saying something like "We have learned that there is only one leader who has the best interests of Americans at heart, and that is the President of the United States. Leaders of other nations have their own country's best interests to look out for, and that's the way it should be. But for the US to rely on those who will not place our safety and security, or the safety and security of our global neighbors, above their own interests, is a risk that we can not afford to accept."
I thought the big score for Kerry was that he was very confident and didn't go into any fevered "Gore" moments. His big hit was his continued affirmation of global leadership, despite self-serving interests... and the bit on the North Korean talks. I thought Bush's big score was when he said he would never turn the protection of the United States over to foreign leaders... I just wish he would have elaborated a bit. His big miss was the dead pauses... he really looked bad.
I also found Kerry used the terms "I have a plan..." or "My plan to..." too much. Ok... so you have a plan... why did you formulate your plan that way and how about at least a brief overview of what your plan is? Bush didn't speak about plans, rather he said what he would do, and more importantly, what he wouldn't do. I much prefered "I think that it's in our best interests to do this..." over "If elected I will do this...!"
I thought the big miss for Kerry was not saying something like "I salute and appreciate the President's service in the National Guard just as I greatly appreciate the sacrifice that our Guardsmen are making today." I think that blowing off Bush's Guard service cost Kerry points with service people... especially since he was so quick to commend himself for his service (at least he didn't say he deserved a Purple Heart for eye strain from the podium lights.) The other big miss was scolding Bush for saying the Chinese would still be involved in unilateral talks with North Korea, despite the fact that the North Koreans just walked out of and stopped talks with China until after the election so they can see who wins. Big oopsie there!
The big miss for Bush was not saying something like "We have learned that there is only one leader who has the best interests of Americans at heart, and that is the President of the United States. Leaders of other nations have their own country's best interests to look out for, and that's the way it should be. But for the US to rely on those who will not place our safety and security, or the safety and security of our global neighbors, above their own interests, is a risk that we can not afford to accept."
I thought the big score for Kerry was that he was very confident and didn't go into any fevered "Gore" moments. His big hit was his continued affirmation of global leadership, despite self-serving interests... and the bit on the North Korean talks. I thought Bush's big score was when he said he would never turn the protection of the United States over to foreign leaders... I just wish he would have elaborated a bit. His big miss was the dead pauses... he really looked bad.
Under no circumstance should we label the debate a "tie." Bush had no legitimate response to many statements made by Kerry. Bush tried to dodge many of the questions by not giving a direct answer. There are no weapons of mass destruction, the original pretense for war, but Bush tries to justify the Iraq war after the fact with different causes.
As for Kerry being labeled a "flip-flopper," Bush shows his lack of understanding of how the modern world operates. I may be mistaken, but leadership also is shown when the leader admits to his wrong-doings? Bush misled the congress and the American people on bad intelligence. Still he will not admit that he was wrong. America's steadfast ally, Great Britain, has admitted that we acted on bad intelligence. Tony Blair has even apologized. During the debate Bush continued on his tirade, "how can you lead this country if you think wrong war, wrong place, wrong time?"
Kerry proved himself in this debate with a four point plan on Iraq, a shift of concerns back to nuclear proliferation, and a stressed point on international cooperation concerning security issues around the world.
It is deplorable to say that Bush defeated Kerry in the debate, and farfetched to claim that the debate was a tie. Kerry was the clear-cut winner, as he will be in the debates following.
As for Kerry being labeled a "flip-flopper," Bush shows his lack of understanding of how the modern world operates. I may be mistaken, but leadership also is shown when the leader admits to his wrong-doings? Bush misled the congress and the American people on bad intelligence. Still he will not admit that he was wrong. America's steadfast ally, Great Britain, has admitted that we acted on bad intelligence. Tony Blair has even apologized. During the debate Bush continued on his tirade, "how can you lead this country if you think wrong war, wrong place, wrong time?"
Kerry proved himself in this debate with a four point plan on Iraq, a shift of concerns back to nuclear proliferation, and a stressed point on international cooperation concerning security issues around the world.
It is deplorable to say that Bush defeated Kerry in the debate, and farfetched to claim that the debate was a tie. Kerry was the clear-cut winner, as he will be in the debates following.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
smc33 said:
So I suppose Kerry is gonna apologize for protesting the war? When are YOU going to apologize for coming on this board and rendering your opinion?
I'm waiting.....
WHY DON'T YOU APOLOGIZE?
See, people DON'T apologize when they're not wrong. And *leaders* don't apologize when they're *RIGHT*, but for some opponent who THINKS he's wrong. This stupid "Bush won't admit he's wrong" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
And when you vote for Kerry, remember to come back and apologize for being wrong.
I see. So the only opinion that matters is yours? Thank you for clearing that up for me.smc33 said:
The rest of your comments are merely Michael Moore soundbites. BUSH did not mislead the American people and Congress - as Bush stated last night and Kerry well knows, the Senate saw the exact same information that Bush did and acted based on that information.
John Kerry himself said that Saddam was a grave threat and should be taken care of. Really! I can dig you up some video if you don't believe me. But now he's trying to say that a 20-year Senator got duped by a less than 1 year (at the time) President. If that is, in fact, the case, you have to wonder who else might dupe him as well.
Now you're predicting the future, which is unsurprising since that's what Kerry supporters do best. They have no idea what's going on right here right now, but by golly they sure can predict the future.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
Dan Quayle made some interesting comments on his debate, where the most famous line was the put-down from Lloyd Bentsen "Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine, and you're no Jack Kennedy". Debates don't win elections. They have never been known to TURN elections. They are informational.
On points, Walter Mondale BEAT Reagan in '84. In the polling booth, Reagan STOMPED Mondale by almost the biggest landslide in history. On points, Nixon BEAT Kennedy, but lost the election nonetheless. And I don't think anyone voted FOR Bush in 2000 because of his debate or Gore's petulant sighs and antics.
This debate may yet actually LOSE it for Kerry, because while Bush's base is solidly behind him on the war, Kerry's is not. He did a very good job at clarifying his position on the war - at last - by the Pottery Barn example. But a large portion of HIS base is ALSO for the war. Taking a firm position either way is gonna cost him.
On points, Walter Mondale BEAT Reagan in '84. In the polling booth, Reagan STOMPED Mondale by almost the biggest landslide in history. On points, Nixon BEAT Kennedy, but lost the election nonetheless. And I don't think anyone voted FOR Bush in 2000 because of his debate or Gore's petulant sighs and antics.
This debate may yet actually LOSE it for Kerry, because while Bush's base is solidly behind him on the war, Kerry's is not. He did a very good job at clarifying his position on the war - at last - by the Pottery Barn example. But a large portion of HIS base is ALSO for the war. Taking a firm position either way is gonna cost him.