debate

B

Bruzilla

Guest
Yet another idealist heard from. Yippee!

Let's look at nuclear proliferation for a moment. We have spent many millions of dollars into slowing down nuclear proliferation, and where has it gotten us? No where. And why not? Because 90% of the money has been wasted. The Russians commit to destroying arms if we pay them, so we send them the cash. The money gets spent on roads, studies, commissions, and into a lot of pockets. So they come back and say "we need more money" and where does that money go? Now it's spent on building their military back up, civic improvements, and into pockets again. Now they need more money! We've already paid out their requests to dismantle and maintain control over their arms twice and what do we have to show for it? A bill for more money that's what. So, Kerry is going to "take charge" and get these weapons under control. How? Sending more money to Russia? There's only one way to get that job done and that's for the US to go in, dismantle the weapons, and provide the security. And there's no way the Russians will ever let that happen. Like North Korea, they know they can raise the spectre of nuclear weapons and the US and other countries will send money to their door... that was until GWB came along and had the audacity to require progress for the money.

Speaking of nuclear proliferation, do you know which country has been trying longer and harder than any other to gain nuclear technology and weapons? It isn't North Korea or Iran... it's Canada!

The WMD claim was not a lie or a fake, but a legitimate concern for the US. I'll agree with anyone who says that it shouldn't have been used as the big reason to invade Iraq... especially when Hussein had been planning for years to take over the Middle East - that was the real threat to the US.

With few exceptions, we all live in a Global economy now, which means we rely heavily on many other countries to meet our needs. Which means that we are at the mercy, a little or a lot, of other countries just as they are at the mercy of other countries. If France gets ticked at us and cuts off the supply of wine to the US, it's no major concern. If Saudi Arabia gets mad and cuts of our oil, it's a hinderence as we only get about 25% from them and we can make that up elsewhere. If France, who gets 85% of their oil from the Middle East gets cut off, they're in deep do-do. If Japan who gets 90% gets cut off, it's even worse. It served the best interests of France, Germany, and Russia to let Hussein go about terrorizing his people and his neighbors because they needed every Iraqi buck they could get. In short, they sold out their moral credibility for short term profit. Are these the people you want as Allies? Are these the kind of people you want having a voice in your security? You better rethink drinking that Kerry kool-aid.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
SamSpade said:
He did a very good job at clarifying his position on the war
What was it?

I heard him say he would kill terrorists, wherever they are, then I heard him say that he was only interested in ObL.

I also heard him say we needed to build alliances, then in the next breath he condemned Bush for "outsourcing" the hunt for bin Laden to the Afghanis.

Kerry said that Bush should've only used war as a "last resort", then proceeded to explain to us that the war was, in fact, the last resort because Saddam was thumbing his nose at everything else.

Then there are all those "first-responder" remarks he made, hot on the heels of disparaging "pre-emptive" action. That tells me that Kerry will not act on threats, but WILL send in firemen AFTER we've been attacked and people have been killed.

:confused:
 

jp_flame

New Member
I always thought that an underlying cornerstone of the military is the idea of "accountability". When bad things happen.......not only do the people who actually did the "failing" get punished.......but superior officers (at some level) are held accountable for what happened....even if they had nothing to do with what actually happened. someone is always held accountable. (i apologize if i'm being very naive on this point? but i thought that's how it works?)

i guess my question is......isn't our president the leader of our military and our country? well.....from what i can tell....a whole host of "bad" things have happened in the last 4 years (911, failing to catch bin laden, invading iraq with no exit strategy, no wmd's, poor war planning, prison abuse, north korea, etc...etc...etc....). now i'm not saying that bush is solely (or even partly responsible) for some (or any) of these events. for example....the decision to go into iraq was based on flawed intelligence.......and i don't think anyone could have imagined 911 happening before it did.

but......these things have happened under bush's watch. shouldn't he be held accountable?

i'm not taking sides or on my high horse or anything. this question of accountability is something i just can't figure out and i was wondering if anyone can explain it to me?
 

GOP4me

New Member
jp_flame said:
I always thought that an underlying cornerstone of the military is the idea of "accountability". When bad things happen.......not only do the people who actually did the "failing" get punished.......but superior officers (at some level) are held accountable for what happened....even if they had nothing to do with what actually happened. someone is always held accountable. (i apologize if i'm being very naive on this point? but i thought that's how it works?)

i guess my question is......isn't our president the leader of our military and our country? well.....from what i can tell....a whole host of "bad" things have happened in the last 4 years (911, failing to catch bin laden, invading iraq with no exit strategy, no wmd's, poor war planning, prison abuse, north korea, etc...etc...etc....). now i'm not saying that bush is solely (or even partly responsible) for some (or any) of these events. for example....the decision to go into iraq was based on flawed intelligence.......and i don't think anyone could have imagined 911 happening before it did.

but......these things have happened under bush's watch. shouldn't he be held accountable?

i'm not taking sides or on my high horse or anything. this question of accountability is something i just can't figure out and i was wondering if anyone can explain it to me?
Why stop at Bush? Hold God accountable.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
jp_flame said:
i guess my question is......isn't our president the leader of our military and our country? well.....from what i can tell....a whole host of "bad" things have happened in the last 4 years (911, failing to catch bin laden, invading iraq with no exit strategy, no wmd's, poor war planning, prison abuse, north korea, etc...etc...etc....). now i'm not saying that bush is solely (or even partly responsible) for some (or any) of these events. for example....the decision to go into iraq was based on flawed intelligence.......and i don't think anyone could have imagined 911 happening before it did.

Yes the President is the leader of our nation and Commander in Chief of our military. 9/11 might have taken place while he was in office but the training, planning and preparation had been going on for years. As to OBL, we’ve been looking for him for 3 years non-stop and we will continue looking for him until he is caught or dead (with this President). I guess you and many others just don’t understand how a person can evade capture. How long did it take to catch the Atlanta Olympic bomber? It was only after he screwed up, and he was right here in the USA, and not some far off God-forsaken place.

No exit strategy? Well shouldn’t you win the conflict before planning to leave? Last I checked we were still engaged with the enemy and should remain so until they are defeated. No WMDs? This is pure and utter BS. They have found materials, plans, and actual weapons but everyone blows that off because they haven’t found massive stockpiles. I tell you what, give me over 12 years, a country the size of California, absolute control of the area and I bet I can stash stuff that no one would ever find either. If you bother to actually read the Iraqi War Resolution you would know that it was for more then WMDs that we went in there, it just wasn’t an exciting enough sound bite for the media.

Poor war planning, you have to be kidding; the major combat action was superbly planned and executed. In fact it went so well that most of you, that are unknowing of combat operations, expected it to be over with and done with by now. It doesn’t work that way. As to the prison abuse you are just being idiotic. Those that committed the atrocities will and are being held accountable.

North Korea, yeah go back to the way it was before and bribe them to not build the weapons and then they secretly work on it anyway. Such a great alternative to getting those in the region to join with us in dialogue to convince the NKs that it is in their interest to abandon their plans.

So what is Bush to be held accountable for? He has been trying to fix what years of neglect and abuse had allowed to take place. I guess you would prefer no action at all or letting the UN do it for us.
 
D

dems4me

Guest
smc33 said:
"but George is winning"....wow

I was very impressed with how Kerry handled himself :cheers:
He spoke with confidence and seemed to be in control.

I counted numerous accounts when Bush had blank 5 second pauses. And he always made the same face when it was Kerry's turn to speak. His only rebuttle or argument was yet again saying that Kerry flip-flops...:ohwell: ...I wish they could find another accusation to go against him than that. It gets weaker and weaker the more people use it.


I agree listening to Bush it sounded like he was doing nothing more than regurgitating his bumpersticker slogans.
I also think Kerry won the debate.
Vria in answer to your question about Kerry's Iraq policy. I believe he will stay the course but get more countries involved in the rebuilding of Iraq so that we can bring more of our boys home. Speaking of nation building it seems that some one also wears flip flops... "we are not into nation building... we need to build up the nations of afghanistan and now Iraq" "mission accomplished.... mission not accomplished" "we will not win the war against terroism... we will win the war against terroism" that's just to name a few and I think Kerry shows a lot of class not to get into the pettiness as shown by the RNC party where as the audiance had pairs of flip flops in hand and chanting flip - flop. To me that sounded like kindegarten politics or something. Republican or Democrat I was embarrassed to think that they are human beings and acting in that fashion. It's not like the DNC convention audiance was shouting "AWOL!!! AWOL!!" "Monkey Face!!! Monkey Face!!!" "ALKIE!!!! ALKIE!!!" while waving Rum bottles in the air. Just my opinoin though. :ohwell:
 
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jp_flame

New Member
i should have figured that i couldn't ask a question......without getting a hostile response. i never mentioned an inclination for or against bush or kerry. and last i checked....this was a forum on somd.com. i guess i didn't realize you have to be a foreign relations expert to ask a question (not that i'm assuming you are....i just know i'm not). so...my bad.

anyway.....imo...it was a legitimate question. there's a chain of command in the military...w/a recruit fresh out of boot camp at the bottom and the president at the top. i was wondering whether the concept of accountability goes all the way to the top....or gets lost somewhere in the middle? and what kinds of mistakes have to be made in order for the president to be held accountable (via not being re-elected)?

and i don't think you have to be the most politically savvy person to know that there have been a slew of poor decisions made recently in the upper ranks of our gov't. i don't care who they are and which party they fall under......but shouldn't someone be held accountable?

(btw...some of your arguments are as idiotic as mine. for example....the prison abuse may not have happened had we had people running the prisons who had actual experience doing so = poor war planning, imho. you can't honestly believe that our mission over there has been a well-oiled machine and an overwhelming success? the difference between you and me is...you seem to assume that you know what you are talking about.)
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
The Quotable Kerry...

Does anyone find it odd that Kerry would quote DeGaulle in his debate?
Yes the context was unique but why cite a luke-warm French president to support a position?

Since he doesn't like to be painted with the obvious ties to France...why bring up a quiche-eating wimpy Frenchman?

Wouldn't it win points to cite FDR,...or Truman,...Jefferson--these are admirable AMERICAN leaders who had enormous impacts and thousands of pithy, witty, and appropriate quotes....but DeGaulle? C'mon Kerry, use some common sense!
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
smc...

There are no weapons of mass destruction, the original pretense for war, but Bush tries to justify the Iraq war after the fact with different causes.

I have NO idea where people with the WMD blinders get their information. John Kerry? Depends on the day of the week.

I say this because last week he was critizing W for stating 22 different reasons for the Iraq war. He stopped in one day because, I guess, one of his staffers pointed out that their were 23.

It's called the Iraq War Resolution. John Kerry voted for it. John Edwards voted for it.

If you bother to read it, you will see the 23 some odd 'whereas's stating the mutlitude of reasons to go to war with Iraq. Every one sound. Every one reasonable.

I was waiting for W to point this out.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
i should have figured that i couldn't ask a question......without getting a hostile response. i never mentioned an inclination for or against bush or kerry. and last i checked....this was a forum on somd.com. i guess i didn't realize you have to be a foreign relations expert to ask a question (not that i'm assuming you are....i just know i'm not). so...my bad.
Please indicate where there is hostility, as I sure don't see it. I responded to your pondering and because we see it differently doesn’t make it hostile and if it does you might be a little too thin-skinned for the discussions going on.

anyway.....imo...it was a legitimate question. there's a chain of command in the military...w/a recruit fresh out of boot camp at the bottom and the president at the top. i was wondering whether the concept of accountability goes all the way to the top....or gets lost somewhere in the middle? and what kinds of mistakes have to be made in order for the president to be held accountable (via not being re-elected)?
Sure there is a chain and it goes something like this President to SECDEF to NSC to SEC of Military Departments to Chairman JCS to JCS to Unified and Specified Commands to Joint Commands and so forth and so on until you get down to that “boot”. Each lower level is accountable to the next higher level and to think that what happens at grunt level makes the President immediately accountable is ludicrous. Did anyone call for Johnson’s head when Cally did his deed in Nam? No, because it was way to far down the chain. Just as what happened at Abu Ghraib was way to far down the chain. It would be like blaming your great-great-great-grandfather for a DWI you received, too many times removed and in no way could he have done anything about it.
and i don't think you have to be the most politically savvy person to know that there have been a slew of poor decisions made recently in the upper ranks of our gov't. i don't care who they are and which party they fall under......but shouldn't someone be held accountable?
Recently, like the period of 1992 to 2000, is that what you are talking about? Damn right, we should hang the bastage that caused all of this for not taking precautions to prevent it.
(btw...some of your arguments are as idiotic as mine. for example....the prison abuse may not have happened had we had people running the prisons who had actual experience doing so = poor war planning, imho. you can't honestly believe that our mission over there has been a well-oiled machine and an overwhelming success? the difference between you and me is...you seem to assume that you know what you are talking about.)
Let’s see, some of those charged with committing the offenses did what before being called up, worked as prison guards. Damn maybe prison guards also serving in the reserves and guard aren’t suited for guarding prisoners. It is obvious to even the most casual observer that you are one of the many Anyone But Bush brethren that has no clue as to what they are talking about and you only pickup and regurgitate what has been spoon-fed to the unthinking masses claiming that you are all knowing and wise. And trust me, there is no assumption as to my knowing what I am talking about, you can rest assured that I do.
 

jp_flame

New Member
actually...i'm just a guy in his mid-20's trying to figure out what the heck is going on in the world today and what's truth and what's not.....so i can make the most informed decision in november. i read the papers everyday......and am very skeptical about everything i read. my head is spinning half the time. everybody seems to have such strong convictions one way or the other...(there seems to be very little grey area for most people)....and yet when i talk to people about their opinions (with an open mind) and try to figure out why they feel the way they do and what they are basing their information on.....it just makes me more skeptical. it makes you wonder if anybody really knows more than half the truth about anything?

didn't mean to ruffle feathers...or accuse. but your response did seem hostile. you basically called me an idiot and wrote me off as one of "those people"....and all i did was ask a general question (non-party related). and no.......i haven't read the Iraq War Resolution....but I'll check it out.

anyway.....i'll try to do more reading and less asking from now on. but i do have one last question......where is the best place to get bare-bones unbiased information? i'm guessing most people (like me) watch the news and read the papers. but if one recognizes the "unthinking masses" and does not want to be a member....what does one do about it?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
jp_flame said:
where is the best place to get bare-bones unbiased information?
Why here, of course! :lol:

You can look up Senate and Representative bills and votes at:

Senate - http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/legislative/g_three_sections_with_teasers/legislative_home.htm

Representatives - http://clerk.house.gov/legisAct/votes.html

You can find out more about the world in the CIA Factbook

You can also use common sense when listening to the talking heads and the candidates themselves. Go to the candidates' websites:
http://www.georgewbush.com/
http://johnkerry.com
and see what they have to say about the issues. Of course, you have to pick through the "I love me wall" crap but it will give you a feel for each of them.

Think "issues", not campaign crap. Do you support abortion on demand? Which candidate matches your views? That sort of thing.

And finally, bone up on history as well as current events. Sanctions didn't work for 12 years on Iraq - what makes us think they'll work now?

To me, this whole campaign boils down to the war on terror. I think we should pre-emptively strike any country's leader that so much as breathes in our direction in a threatening manner. Other people think that there should be an actual crime committed before you can take any action. It's strictly a matter of opinion and both sides can make a legitimate case.

Another good issue to think about is are you comfortable with the US being the only super-power in the world or do you think we should dumb down a bit so other countries don't feel so inferior and take it out on us with their UN votes? That may sound like a loaded question, but it's not. There is a legitimate case to be made for each side.
 

jp_flame

New Member
thx for the links vrai! i'll definitely check them out.

(and thx ken for responding to my initial question. and i will concede that it's within the realm of possibility that i was being ever-so-slightly thin-skinned. :whistle: )
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
jp_flame said:
actually...i'm just a guy in his mid-20's trying to figure out what the heck is going on in the world today and what's truth and what's not.....so i can make the most informed decision in november. i read the papers everyday......and am very skeptical about everything i read. my head is spinning half the time. everybody seems to have such strong convictions one way or the other...(there seems to be very little grey area for most people)....and yet when i talk to people about their opinions (with an open mind) and try to figure out why they feel the way they do and what they are basing their information on.....it just makes me more skeptical. it makes you wonder if anybody really knows more than half the truth about anything?

didn't mean to ruffle feathers...or accuse. but your response did seem hostile. you basically called me an idiot and wrote me off as one of "those people"....and all i did was ask a general question (non-party related). and no.......i haven't read the Iraq War Resolution....but I'll check it out.

anyway.....i'll try to do more reading and less asking from now on. but i do have one last question......where is the best place to get bare-bones unbiased information? i'm guessing most people (like me) watch the news and read the papers. but if one recognizes the "unthinking masses" and does not want to be a member....what does one do about it?
Don’t give up, continue to ask questions, it's a great way to learn. After re-reading my post I did say your thought on Abu Ghraib was idiotic, for that I apologize. It's just that so many think that the President should be knowledgeable of every act by every troop and that is simply impossible and an unrealistic point of view.

While I am registered as a Democrat I am more aligned with a mentality that is best described as Libertarian. But with only two true parties in our political makeup I see it as futile to register as one and I want to play in the primary election as well as the general.

Of the two candidates we have running I see only one choice and that is GW Bush. Kerry re-enforced my distaste last night when he said we had to “pass a global test” prior to using our forces for our protection. That simply doesn’t cut it for me and I will never support anyone that thinks that we should get approval or permission before seeing to our needs.
 
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smc33

New Member
wow

SamSpade said:
So I suppose Kerry is gonna apologize for protesting the war? When are YOU going to apologize for coming on this board and rendering your opinion?

I'm waiting.....

WHY DON'T YOU APOLOGIZE?

See, people DON'T apologize when they're not wrong. And *leaders* don't apologize when they're *RIGHT*, but for some opponent who THINKS he's wrong. This stupid "Bush won't admit he's wrong" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

And when you vote for Kerry, remember to come back and apologize for being wrong.

Wow... Apologize? Are you kidding me? Somehow Americans now, in our time, are frowned upon when they criticize the incumbant. Somehow, over the last 4 years, it has become un-American to disagree with the president and his policies. Why not just hold up a sign saying "no democrats allowed." Saddam would most likely approve of your consequential lingo about my vote (one candidate elections). You should just throw me in Gitmo alongside the other criminals. Then you should apologize for not bringing a legitimate rebuttal to my post. Maybe prompting me to apologize is a front to hide your ignorance.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
smc33 said:
Wow... Apologize? Are you kidding me? Somehow Americans now, in our time, are frowned upon when they criticize the incumbant. Somehow, over the last 4 years, it has become un-American to disagree with the president and his policies. Why not just hold up a sign saying "no democrats allowed." Saddam would most likely approve of your consequential lingo about my vote (one candidate elections). You should just throw me in Gitmo alongside the other criminals. Then you should apologize for not bringing a legitimate rebuttal to my post. Maybe prompting me to apologize is a front to hide your ignorance.

:listenstothesoundofapointflyingoversomeoneshead:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
smc33 said:
Wow... Apologize? Are you kidding me? Somehow Americans now, in our time, are frowned upon when they criticize the incumbant. Somehow, over the last 4 years, it has become un-American to disagree with the president and his policies. Why not just hold up a sign saying "no democrats allowed." Saddam would most likely approve of your consequential lingo about my vote (one candidate elections). You should just throw me in Gitmo alongside the other criminals. Then you should apologize for not bringing a legitimate rebuttal to my post. Maybe prompting me to apologize is a front to hide your ignorance.
I think the frowning comes when people twist the truth for political gain. Kerry even agrees that based on the intelligence that they had it was the right thing to do. It’s just that now Kerry says he would have gone about it differently and has gone so far as to proclaim it was the wrong war at the wrong time. Seems to be a significant contradiction here.

What was wrong with the actions taken after Congress authorized the President to use force to insure our safety and security with PL107-243? It was almost a mirror of the law they passed in 1998 when President Clinton was “dealing” with Iraq except this time it gave the President the authority to use force.

Once the President determined that continued diplomatic efforts would not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq and was not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions he was empowered by law to act militarily and that is what he did.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
smc33 said:
Somehow Americans now, in our time, are frowned upon when they criticize the incumbant.
If Democrats would criticize the President in an adult manner, instead of calling him Hitler, telling blatant lies and taking to the streets like a bunch of third-world morons, maybe we wouldn't frown on you.

And Tex is right - you completely missed SamSpade's point.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Could one of you Bush Bashers please tell me exactly what a "Bad Decision" in combat is? You can analyze the outcome of a decision after the fact and say it was bad, but how can you say someone made a bad decision in a wartime environment?

Everyone talks about the fog of war, but few really appreciate what that term means. I had many combat missions that started out on Plan A and ended up on Plan E or F because the bad guys didn't want to do what we had anticipated they would do. We're my leaders inept or making bad decisions solely because people aren't machines and there's really no way to predict, with the level of accuracy that hindsight affords, what is going to happen. As a leader you look at the best information available at the time and you make your decision. Then you hope that your people have the flexibility to adjust to changing combat conditions.

Had we fought WWII on a "Daily" basis; meaning a nationwide debate over each little setback, or crying over every casualty, we would have never taken even Guadalcanal. Tactical, and strategic, decisions have gone south in every battle and war that humans have ever fought. Sometimes the outcomes are good and sometimes they are bad. What should ultimately decide what is success is the long-term results and we're a couple of years away from knowing those.
 
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