Does God require sacrifices?

Dondi · Aug 19, 2005

What do you make of these OT verses?

"With what shall I come to the Lord, and bow myself before the God on high? Shall I come to Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Does the Lord take delight in thousands of rams, in ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6.6-8)

Psalms 40.7)"Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; but my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You have not required." (Psalms 40.7)

"You do not want me to bring sacrifices; You do not desire burnt offerings." (Psalms 51.18)

"I will extol God's name with song, and exalt him with praise. That will please the Lord more than oxen, than bulls with horns and hooves." (Psalms 69.31-32)

"For I desire goodness; not sacrifice. Obedience to God, rather than burnt offerings." (Hosea 6.6)

"If My people upon whom My name is called shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek Me, and turn from their evil ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Now Mine eyes shall be open, and Mine ears attent, unto the prayer that is made in this place." (2 Chronicles 7.14-17)

So it seems to me that in the OT, God doesn't necessarily require sacrifice, rather our praise and obedience. If I were an OT Jew, and never offered sacrifice, yet gave God praise and obedience, Then I should be granted forgiveness from God. Agree or disagree?

2ndAmendment · Aug 19, 2005

I ask a couple of questions to provoke thought.

What can we offer to God that He does not already have?

Why would we sacrifice something to God?

Railroad · Aug 19, 2005

Jesus was the Supreme Sacrifice, and He died on the cross as a sacrificial lamb (the Lamb of God) for our sins. This great intercession obviates the need for any further sacrifices from us (at least in that sense of the word).

Dondi · Aug 19, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
I ask a couple of questions to provoke thought.

What can we offer to God that He does not already have?

Why would we sacrifice something to God?

What can we offer to God that He does not already have?

Our lives, our love, our dedication to Him.

Why would we sacrifice something to God?

Any number of reasons. There were many types of offerings in the Mosiac law. but some I could give offhand:

1)To give the best of ourselves and our livelihood. 2) To bring ourselves to an awareness of God. 3)To recognize our need for His forgiveness. 4) To draw close to God. 5) To thank God for our blessings.

Dondi · Aug 19, 2005

Railroad said:
Jesus was the Supreme Sacrifice, and He died on the cross as a sacrificial lamb (the Lamb of God) for our sins. This great intercession obviates the need for any further sacrifices from us (at least in that sense of the word).

But I'm talking as an Old Testament Jew, before Christ. Would I neccessarily need sacrifices in light of the above verses?

bedazzle · Aug 19, 2005

What if we sacrifice (with his help) our desire to run our own life the way we want to? It's really the only thing we have to give God. In other words to turn it over and allow God to have his way with our life and give up our desire to please ourselves all the time. Live life his way by obeying His commandmants and teachings. I think that's a sacrifice. Hopefully he will bless us for it.

Railroad · Aug 19, 2005

Dondi said:
But I'm talking as an Old Testament Jew, before Christ. Would I neccessarily need sacrifices in light of the above verses?

I don't know, Dondi, but it's kind a moot point now, isn't it?

I'm not an Old Testament scholar, but my understanding is that if you broke the law, you were to repent of the sin, go to the temple and pray for forgiveness, and offer up a burnt sacrifice to please the Lord.

From all that I've read in the New Testament, though, the pre-Christ Jews (as with the pre-Christ everybody else and those who've never heard the Gospel at any time) will be judged by Christ (see Revelation 20:4 - 6, and Revelation 20:11 - 15).

2ndAmendment · Aug 19, 2005

Lots of good answers.

Since we have free will, the only thing we can give God that He does not have is ourselves. You said that in other words. He has everything else; the universe is His and all things there in.

The reason we sacrifice, Old Testament or New, is to show love and obedience. God does not need our physical sacrifice, money, cows, chickens, etc. He didn't need them from Old Testament Jews and He doesn't need them from us. He wants our love and obedience. It is through praise and adoration and obedience that we give ourselves.

That is the way I see it. I think that is why Jesus said

Matthew 9:12-14

12But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

13"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mark 12:29-34

29Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;

30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

31"The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

32The scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;

33AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.

Railroad · Aug 19, 2005

bedazzle said:
What if we sacrifice (with his help) our desire to run our own life the way we want to? It's really the only thing we have to give God. In other words to turn it over and allow God to have his way with our life and give up our desire to please ourselves all the time. Live life his way by obeying His commandmants and teachings. I think that's a sacrifice. Hopefully he will bless us for it.

That's no sacrifice - it won't take long for you to be wanting your new life in every sense of the word! It's a different and wonderful new life! You'll get beat up about it a little bit while you're still here, because the lost are allergic to the saved, so I guess that could be cosidered a sacrifice.

2ndAmendment · Aug 19, 2005

bedazzle said:
What if we sacrifice (with his help) our desire to run our own life the way we want to? It's really the only thing we have to give God. In other words to turn it over and allow God to have his way with our life and give up our desire to please ourselves all the time. Live life his way by obeying His commandmants and teachings. I think that's a sacrifice. Hopefully he will bless us for it.

Actually that is the only way to be totally in His will. Let God be on the throne of our life. Let Jesus be Lord as well as Savior.

Dondi · Aug 19, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Lots of good answers.

Since we have free will, the only thing we can give God that He does not have is ourselves. You said that in other words. He has everything else; the universe is His and all things there in.

The reason we sacrifice, Old Testament or New, is to show love and obedience. God does not need our physical sacrifice, money, cows, chickens, etc. He didn't need them from Old Testament Jews and He doesn't need them from us. He wants our love and obedience. It is through praise and adoration and obedience that we give ourselves.

That is the way I see it. I think that is why Jesus said

Good, good. So, since God doesn't need our sacrifice, then anyone who gives God their love and obedience can be saved, right?

Railroad · Aug 20, 2005

Dondi said:
Good, good. So, since God doesn't need our sacrifice, then anyone who gives God their love and obedience can be saved, right?

Not quite that simple; asking Jesus to be your savior, asking for forgiveness for your sins and genuinely regretting all of them (repenting) are the rest of the formula. But I'm not sure how you could truly love Him and not do all of those things anyway.

Dondi · Aug 20, 2005

Railroad said:
Not quite that simple; asking Jesus to be your savior, asking for forgiveness for your sins and genuinely regretting all of them (repenting) are the rest of the formula. But I'm not sure how you could truly love Him and not do all of those things anyway.

Yes, but speaking as a hypothetical Jew, (I am currently a seeking Christian), I don't believe in Jesus as Savior for the some of the following reasons:

1) The Mosiac law forbids human sacrifice. (Deuteronomy 18.10)

2) The sacrifices must be made by the Jewish High Priest on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem, not by Roman soldiers on a hill outside of the city.

3) Other ways of atonement besides blood sacrifices:

· Exodus 30.12 - Charity can provide atonement for the soul.

· Exodus 30.15-16 - Money can make atonement for the soul.

· Leviticus 5.11-13 - Flour can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 14.19-20 - Prayer can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 31.50 - Jewelry can make atonement for the soul.

· Isaiah 27.9 - Breaking alters to idolatry can make atonement.

· Jeremiah 36.3 - Turning from evil can make atonement for the soul.

· Hosea 6.6 - Obedience can make atonement for the soul.

4) The main passage about blood atonement is chiefly about dietary laws, not atonement (Lev. 17). As noted above, thier were other methods of atonement.

5) The Jews did not observe any of the Temple rituals of sacrifices during their Babylonian captivity, since sacrifices can only be performed at the Temple in Jerusalem, yet God forgave their sins. Their primary method of forgiveness was through prayer and supplication.

6) Since the Temple was destroyed in AD 70, and the Dome of the Rock (Islam) is in it's place, the Jews have no means to perform Mosiac sacrifices. Therefore, their primary means of atonement is through prayer and supplication, until the Temple is rebuilt.

7) The Jews await the rebuilding of the Third Temple as described in the last chapters of Ezekiel and the corresponding arrival of the Jewish Messiah.

8) Jesus, in their view, fails to fulfill the requirements of the Messiah for the following reasons:

a) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

b) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

c) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

d) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

For more on these reasons, visit the following websites:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/bibleprophecy/dontbelieve.html

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/mainpages/index.html

http://jdstone.org/cr/ (Warning: This site is rather harsh in it's treatment of Christianity, yet their are some intelligent arguements here.)

My spiritual journey has led me to sort of start over. And this has brought me to the attempt to learn, without any NT bias or influence, to understand the Old Testament, before Jesus came. Much of the research is making a lot of ssense. My intention is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I so much want to believe in Jesus as the Savior and have in the past made a profession of faith to that regard. But to me, it's highly critical that we as Christians, if we are to be honest in our "Jewish" roots, i.e. Old Testament beliefs, need to get a firm grasp on what the OT says. I fear we place too much emphasis on the NT and have little regard for the OT (I am guilty of this myself). One time, I heard a lady tell me she doesn't even read the OT as she feels it unnecessary because, hey, we're under the New Covenant. I was rather shocked. At any rate, I hope we can have some intelligent dialog about this here in the forum.

2ndAmendment · Aug 20, 2005

Dondi said:
Good, good. So, since God doesn't need our sacrifice, then anyone who gives God their love and obedience can be saved, right?

Well...He has prescribe the method. God came as man as our Savior, Y'shua, Jesus. God, the Father, as Jesus said

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

.

According to the Bible, there is not another way once you have had the opportunity to accept Jesus as Savior.

2ndAmendment · Aug 20, 2005

Dondi said:
Yes, but speaking as a hypothetical Jew, (I am currently a seeking Christian), I don't believe in Jesus as Savior for the some of the following reasons:
...

8) Jesus, in their view, fails to fulfill the requirements of the Messiah for the following reasons:

a) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

b) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

c) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

If Jews are honest and truly look at the life of Jesus on the earth, He indeed does fulfill all the messianic prophecies and fully embodied the personal qualifications of the Messiah. The Jews did not want to and do not want to believe in Jesus because He was not the "Messiah" they were looking for. They wanted someone to overthrow the Romans. The Messiah came to overthrow a different "kingdom", the kingdom of sin. He conquered sin by dieing for the sins of all who accept Him and gives us the promise of eternal life through His resurrection. A Christian looks to the Old Testament for the history and the prophesy of Jesus and the last days and for affirmation that God fulfills prophesy by observing all the prophesy that has been fulfilled. Christians look to the Old Testament for the miracles performed as testament to God doing that which is impossible for man just as He does today. Christians also should read the Old Testament to know the revealed nature of God, a loving, forgiving Father, but a Holy God full of wrath for those that do not obey His way. Christians look to the New Testament for the fulfillment of the promise of the Messiah and testimony to the fulfillment of the Messianic prophesies. The New Testament also presents the only path to forgiveness and eternal life for those that have had the opportunity to receive Jesus. The New Testament presents the pathway to Christian growth.

You can't be a Christian without Jesus and the account of the life of Jesus is in the New Testament.

Railroad · Aug 20, 2005

My hat's off to both of you, Dondi and 2A, for the depth of your knowledge (and the depth of research necessary to get you there). Very impressive! I wish I'd studied more.

Dondi · Aug 20, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
If Jews are honest and truly look at the life of Jesus on the earth, He indeed does fulfill all the messianic prophecies and fully embodied the personal qualifications of the Messiah. The Jews did not want to and do not want to believe in Jesus because He was not the "Messiah" they were looking for. They wanted someone to overthrow the Romans.

I think they do look at it honestly and that they see the aforementioned inconsistencies with idea of Jesus as the Messiah. Their concept of a Messiah is one who will be victorous among the nations. It is a national identity, not a personal one. The Messiah will rule the over all nations. That has yet to happen, and it certainly didn't happen in Jesus's time. Even if Jesus is the Messiah to come, the Jews aren't looking for someone to sacrifice themselves, but restore the Temple and the Mosiac rituals. Again, see Ezekiel 40-50. I don't think they can be convinced that Jesus is the Messiah unless He restores these things. So are the Jews still lost?

Dondi · Aug 20, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
A Christian looks to the Old Testament for the history and the prophesy of Jesus and the last days and for affirmation that God fulfills prophesy by observing all the prophesy that has been fulfilled. Christians look to the Old Testament for the miracles performed as testament to God doing that which is impossible for man just as He does today. Christians also should read the Old Testament to know the revealed nature of God, a loving, forgiving Father, but a Holy God full of wrath for those that do not obey His way. Christians look to the New Testament for the fulfillment of the promise of the Messiah and testimony to the fulfillment of the Messianic prophesies. The New Testament also presents the only path to forgiveness and eternal life for those that have had the opportunity to receive Jesus. The New Testament presents the pathway to Christian growth.

You can't be a Christian without Jesus and the account of the life of Jesus is in the New Testament.

Most people got saved attending their Christian church. We have been indoctrinated with Catholic doctrine, Baptist doctrine, Pentacostal doctrine, Lutheran doctrine, etc. whatever. We see Christianity through the lenses of our denominations. As a result, we enter the door through the New Testament. Oh, sure, we get stories in Sunday school about Adam and Eve, and Noah, and Jonah, and Moses. But when it came down to it, we are told that it all points to the New Testament, to Jesus, that is the Christian's Covenant. To be honest, when I first started leaning the Bible growing up, I didn't differentiate between the OT and NT, I just considered it the Bible. The central message of sermons was focused on Christ. We've been Christianized. But all the early follower's of Christ were Jewish. They are coming through the other way, through the Old Testament, or the Tanach. So if we are to get a clear understanding of the mindset of Jews, we need to know and think how they think. We need to know what their idea of "Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One."

2ndAmendment · Aug 20, 2005

Dondi said:
I think they do look at it honestly and that they see the aforementioned inconsistencies with idea of Jesus as the Messiah. Their concept of a Messiah is one who will be victorous among the nations. It is a national identity, not a personal one. The Messiah will rule the over all nations. That has yet to happen, and it certainly didn't happen in Jesus's time. Even if Jesus is the Messiah to come, the Jews aren't looking for someone to sacrifice themselves, but restore the Temple and the Mosiac rituals. Again, see Ezekiel 40-50. I don't think they can be convinced that Jesus is the Messiah unless He restores these things. So are the Jews still lost?

Yes, except for the Messianic Jews. Look up Jews for Jesus. You will find that not all Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus is the "cornerstone".

Isaiah 28:16-17

16Therefore thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone,
A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17"I will make justice the measuring line
And righteousness the level;
Then hail will sweep away the refuge of lies
And the waters will overflow the secret place.

Psalm 118:21-23

21I shall give thanks to You, for You have answered me,
And You have become my salvation.
22The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief corner stone.
23This is the LORD'S doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.

Mark 12:9-11

10"Have you not even read this Scripture:
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
11THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?"

Matthew 21:42-43

42Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures,
'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;
THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,
AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

43"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

Both Old and New Testament cry out to proclaim Jesus is the Messiah. The Jews of Jesus' time wanted someone to save them from the Romans. God came to give them a personal Savior to save them from sin which is far more important and lasting and they rejected Him which fulfilled prophesy that they would. Jesus said that the kindom of God would be taken from the Jews and given to other people. You better be thankful the Jews rejected Jesus. I am. If they had not, we would not be the adopted children.

Of course modern Jews continue to proclaim that Jesus is not the Messiah. So. That would be expected. Only 144000 Jews will be saved according to the book of Revelation, 12000 from each of the 12 tribes. A great multitude of others are saved through the "Lamb".

Revelation 7

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,

6from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,

7from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,

8from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

A Multitude from the Tribulation

9After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

One of my best friends is a Jew; His wife is a Christian; She and I both pray for him.

2ndAmendment · Aug 20, 2005

Dondi said:
Most people got saved attending their Christian church. We have been indoctrinated with Catholic doctrine, Baptist doctrine, Pentacostal doctrine, Lutheran doctrine, etc. whatever. We see Christianity through the lenses of our denominations. ... But all the early follower's of Christ were Jewish. They are coming through the other way, through the Old Testament, or the Tanach. So if we are to get a clear understanding of the mindset of Jews, we need to know and think how they think. We need to know what their idea of "Hear O Israel, The Lord our God, the Lord is One."

I am a Christian. I happen to go to some church. If that church did not teach scripture, I would find another group to worship with. Remember that the Jews after Jesus had ascended into heaven said to not persecute the followers of Jesus.

Acts 5

34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the Law, respected by all the people, stood up in the Council and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time.

35And he said to them, "Men of Israel, take care what you propose to do with these men.

36"For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody, and a group of about four hundred men joined up with him. But he was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing.

37"After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census and drew away some people after him; he too perished, and all those who followed him were scattered.

38"So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;

39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

40They took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and then released them.

41So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name.

42And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.

The disciples would not have allowed themselves to be beaten and killed to support a lie. Jesus is who He is. If He was not, Christianity would have died out in the first century.

Consider Paul, originally Saul. A Jew among Jews, a Pharisee. Why would he suffer imprisonment and death.

Acts 26

1Agrippa said to Paul, "You are permitted to speak for yourself." Then Paul stretched out his hand and proceeded to make his defense: 2"In regard to all the things of which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate, King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today;

3especially because you are an expert in all customs and questions among the Jews; therefore I beg you to listen to me patiently.

4"So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;

5since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.

6"And now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers;

7the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day And for this hope, O King, I am being accused by Jews.

8"Why is it considered incredible among you people if God does raise the dead?

9"So then, I thought to myself that I had to do many things hostile to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

10"And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.

11"And as I punished them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to blaspheme; and being furiously enraged at them, I kept pursuing them even to foreign cities.

12"While so engaged as I was journeying to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests,

13at midday, O King, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining all around me and those who were journeying with me.

14"And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

15"And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.

16'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;

17rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,

18to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

19"So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,

20but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

21"For this reason some Jews seized me in the temple and tried to put me to death.

22"So, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place;

23that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles."

All any of the disciples or Paul or any of the thousands of Christians that were put to death had to do was say they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and they would have been released. They didn't. Jesus is who He is.

Does God require sacrifices?

Dondi

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