Does God require sacrifices?

Dondi · Aug 20, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Yes, except for the Messianic Jews. Look up Jews for Jesus. You will find that not all Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah.

I am familiar with "Jews for Jesus" and other Messianic Jews organizations. As a matter of fact, the "Jews for Judiasm" website I referred to earlier is a direct Jewish response to "Jews for Jesus".

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/mainpages/index.html

Dondi · Aug 20, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Remember that the Jews after Jesus had ascended into heaven said to not persecute the followers of Jesus. The disciples would not have allowed themselves to be beaten and killed to support a lie. Jesus is who He is. If He was not, Christianity would have died out in the first century.

Consider Paul, originally Saul. A Jew among Jews, a Pharisee. Why would he suffer imprisonment and death. All any of the disciples or Paul or any of the thousands of Christians that were put to death had to do was say they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah and they would have been released. They didn't. Jesus is who He is.

There have been many who have died for their cause even believing despite being deluded (Think Waco). There are many Muslims who are willing to die for Alllah, but that doesn't mean they are right. I'm sure there are others examples.

In fact, many Jews were put to death during the Inquisition for denying Christ. They stuck to what they believed in: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One". Were they right?

Dondi · Aug 20, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
I am a Christian. I happen to go to some church. If that church did not teach scripture, I would find another group to worship with.

That is commendable. But every time you read the Old Testament, you are always going to think of Christ and the New Testament in somehow and some way. You are already oriented to the doctrines as presented in the New Testament. The Jews don't have the New Testament in their Bibles. Their frame of reference is in the Old Testament. Therefore, they are biased when they come New Testament, just as Christians are when the come to the Old Testament.

soul4sale · Aug 21, 2005

Dondi said:
So it seems to me that in the OT, God doesn't necessarily require sacrifice, rather our praise and obedience. If I were an OT Jew, and never offered sacrifice, yet gave God praise and obedience, Then I should be granted forgiveness from God. Agree or disagree?

Never hurts to grease his palm in advance of arriving at the Pearly Gates...

2ndAmendment · Aug 22, 2005

Dondi,
I should have been more specific. I believe the Messianic Jews are included in the "great multitude of people from all nations" while the 144000 are Jews that are judged righteous, not perfect or sinless, but righteous.

I ask you this Dondi. If God wanted the sacrifice to continue, would He have allowed the temple to be destroyed? Would He have allowed the Holiest symbol of the Jews, the Ark of the Covenant, to be lost? Would He have split the veil of the temple when Jesus yielded His spirit signifying the end of the separation between man and God?

Matthew 27:50-52

50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

52The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

You seem to want to be able to "earn" your way into God's kingdom. If you really believe in Jesus as the Savior, you know there is nothing you can do beyond what God has already done. All we have is ourself to give back to our creator. Why would you want to be a slave to a continual system of sacrifice that can never cover your sin?

2ndAmendment · Aug 22, 2005

soul4sale said:
Never hurts to grease his palm in advance of arriving at the Pearly Gates...

Do you really think you can bribe God?

Dondi · Aug 22, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Dondi,
You seem to want to be able to "earn" your way into God's kingdom. If you really believe in Jesus as the Savior, you know there is nothing you can do beyond what God has already done. All we have is ourself to give back to our creator. Why would you want to be a slave to a continual system of sacrifice that can never cover your sin?

First off, I'm not trying to be a slave to the system of sacrifice. On the contrary, what I've been pointing out in the verses at to beginning of this post indicate that atonement can be granted by other means, namely prayer and supplication.

But I want to be clear of my motives in this discussion. For all my life I have believed in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I grew up in a Baptist church and got saved at the age of 13. Since I have been saved, I have had my ups and downs, (at one time I had my doubts about God's existance, though I'm convinced He is there now). At 22, i rededicated my life to Christ and have been more or less (hopefully more) living a Christian life.

The problem is that I have is the overwhelming burden for lost souls. there are 6 billion people in the world today. Of those, the current estimate of Christians is about 2.1 billion (source: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html). So that leaves some 4 billion people that are NOT saved. To add to that, not all that call themselves "Christians" are saved according to NT doctrine. Indeed, there are many cults and denominations lumped into Christianity, and I bet everyone of them will tell you they are right and you are wrong, by varying degrees. So lets say, for the sake of arguement, that there are only 1 billion people saved according to the NT scriptures. That leaves 5 billion people who are lost and going to hell! And that's not even taking account of all of history. That is unfathomable to me. If we are to believe that Jesus Christ is victorious, He has a poor track record. I just can't imagine that many lost souls. How in the world is God going to be glorified in the universe if most of His creation are suffering the pangs of hell and death?

I know, I know, many are called, but few are chosen, and the path is narrow (NT doctrines again).

Looking back at my own conversion I realize the motivating factor in coming to Christ is fear. Let's face it, our sins are a hinderance to God and God definitely looks down on the sins we commit. At the same time, there is in everyones conscious at one time or another the idea of God and the guilt of our sins (I wonder how many atheists/agnostics started with a belief in God). And if we need to be punished for our sins, eternal damnation in the fires of hell seems like a stiff penalty for not quite making the grade. If God is truly a father who loves His children, why on earth would he hold this over our heads. He knew we were going to fall. He knew from the beginning that we would sin. And the only means of communicating to us lost sinners is through the Bible, which is out of reach to many people. I think of all the Muslims whose only source of God is in the Koran. In some, if not most of these Muslim countries, the Bible is forbidden. How are they going to be saved? Through Christians? Right. Bang up job we've done so far. Is it fathomable to believe that all these people are lost through ignorance? Ignorance that is the result of supression. Is God that much out to get us? This isn't the mark of a loving father.

So with all this in my mind, at 41 I've come to a point of re-evaluation. I've decided to suspend my beliefs (God help me) in order to approach this thing with an unbiased mind. I've been studying other major religions am seeing a common theme of a monotheistic (in most religions) God who desires to commune with his creation. And since Judiasm is the root religion of Christianity I wanted to come through the other way, through the OT. I don't know where this journey will take me. But if it leads back to Jesus Christ, I'll accept that. It is a daring move to step out of one's faith, especially among friends and family members. But I have to know.

I find this local forum (somd.com) a stimulating place to seek answers. I want to be open and objective, yet I don't wish to engage in fruitless arguements that lead to discord. So my promise is to listen and learn as I present my own questions and observation.

2A, this is a long post, and it is late. I'm going to respond to the rest of your post tomorrow.

2ndAmendment · Aug 23, 2005

Dondi,
You obviously are questioning your own "faith". I pray that in the process you don't become one of those that has their name erased from the book of life. I know that is not in accord with the Baptist doctrine of "once saved always saved" but that is one of the Baptist doctrines that convinced me to not be a part of the Baptist denomination any longer. I am a Christian without regard for denomination, but I believe that Christians must not give up the assembling together to worship and praise God. That is the way we get our encouragement. Remember this:

Romans 9

Solicitude for Israel

1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

9For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

25As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26"AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

29And just as Isaiah foretold,
"UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

33just as it is written,
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Dondi · Aug 23, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Dondi,
You obviously are questioning your own "faith". I pray that in the process you don't become one of those that has their name erased from the book of life. I know that is not in accord with the Baptist doctrine of "once saved always saved" but that is one of the Baptist doctrines that convinced me to not be a part of the Baptist denomination any longer. I am a Christian without regard for denomination, but I believe that Christians must not give up the assembling together to worship and praise God. That is the way we get our encouragement. Remember this:

It's not my faith in God that I am questioning. I have every confidence that God is there and that He loves me. I have acknowledged God in my life and know His forgiveness in my heart. What I am questioning is how I believe. And not just Baptist doctrine, but New Testament doctrine. But is it a crime to test that which one believes? Were not the Bereans (Acts 17:11) commended for searching the OT scriptures daily to see that these things were true? That is all I'm doing. I'm testing what I believe. Should I fear God simply because I seek the truth? If you know anything about evangelism, it's about getting people to re-evaluate what they believe about God. Does not the God of the Old Testament command us to test the prophets in accordance to Deut. 13 and 18? Why should I fear my name getting blotted from the Book of Life for doing what God commands us? As I've said, if it turns out that Jesus is who He said He is, then that foundation should stand. I should not fear the Truth, whatever it may turn out to be.

I'm not sure what part of Romans 9 you wish to emphasis. Again you are using NT scripture to prove NT doctrine. That's sort of like using the Koran to prove Islam. It talks about Abraham, Moses, and Jesus also. So when a Muslim comes around and tells me that Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet, on what basis should I test this? Please be specific when using large blocks of scripture. Romans 9 has whole sermons to talk about. It would be more useful especially to expound on the OT passages in this chapter to prove your point.

Railroad · Aug 23, 2005

Dondi, I suggest you try to read the Bible for comprehension; the answers will become very plain to you through study and lots, lots of prayer. And you could try other sources for the answers to your many questions, if you are indeed only after the Truth. If on the other hand you want to stir up yet another argument here, please be honest about that and say so..

Dondi · Aug 23, 2005

Railroad said:
Dondi, I suggest you try to read the Bible for comprehension; the answers will become very plain to you through study and lots, lots of prayer. And you could try other sources for the answers to your many questions, if you are indeed only after the Truth. If on the other hand you want to stir up yet another argument here, please be honest about that and say so..

I thought I mentioned my intention clear a few posts back. But OK, I'll be honest. Although I prefer to call it a fruitful debate. And I thought the whole reason for forums is to engage in this sort of dialog. I do want to be amicable about it, however, with meekness and respect.

BTW, I am reading and studying the Bible for comprehension and believe me, much prayer has been put into it. That was one of my main points, to gain an unbiased understanding of what the OT says, if that is possible.

Dondi · Aug 23, 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndAmendment
I ask you this Dondi. If God wanted the sacrifice to continue, would He have allowed the temple to be destroyed? Would He have allowed the Holiest symbol of the Jews, the Ark of the Covenant, to be lost? Would He have split the veil of the temple when Jesus yielded His spirit signifying the end of the separation between man and God?

Exactly my point. Lets’ talk about the Ark of the Covenant for a moment. Isn’t it peculiar that the Ark of the Covenant disappeared just before the Babylonian captivity? The last place mentioned is in Jeremiah 3:16-18, just before the Babylonian captivity, which happened around 586 B.C.E:

16And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
The Solomon’s temple was desecrated and the city of Jerusalem destroyed. All of God’s people, the Jews, were taken away to Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar.

So, all during the Babylonian captivity, they could not perform the sacrificial rituals. How did their sins get atoned? There had to be some way, which is what I’ve been saying all along; that they were covered through prayer and supplication.

But then, starting in 538 B.C.E., when the Jews returned to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and rebuilt the Temple, they STILL didn’t have the Ark of the Covenant.

So how were they to perform the yearly Day of Atonement?

According to Moses, the sons of Aaron, after vigorous ritual preparation and cleansing, entered the Holy of Holies to sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat of the Ark. But there was no Ark, so how could their sins be atone for? Again, through prayer and supplication. This went on for some 500 years. And this Temple, Herod’s Temple, is the same one in Jesus’s time. Seems God had already deemed the sacrifice for the Day of Atonement null long before Christ arrived. My point is that the blood sacrifice had already been done away with, even though sacrifices continued up to Jesus’ time. This leads me to the idea that blood sacrifice isn’t necessary to come to God.

2ndAmendment · Aug 23, 2005

Dondi said:
It's not my faith in God that I am questioning. I have every confidence that God is there and that He loves me. I have acknowledged God in my life and know His forgiveness in my heart. What I am questioning is how I believe. And not just Baptist doctrine, but New Testament doctrine. But is it a crime to test that which one believes? Were not the Bereans (Acts 17:11) commended for searching the OT scriptures daily to see that these things were true? That is all I'm doing. I'm testing what I believe. Should I fear God simply because I seek the truth? If you know anything about evangelism, it's about getting people to re-evaluate what they believe about God. Does not the God of the Old Testament command us to test the prophets in accordance to Deut. 13 and 18? Why should I fear my name getting blotted from the Book of Life for doing what God commands us? As I've said, if it turns out that Jesus is who He said He is, then that foundation should stand. I should not fear the Truth, whatever it may turn out to be.

I'm not sure what part of Romans 9 you wish to emphasis. Again you are using NT scripture to prove NT doctrine. That's sort of like using the Koran to prove Islam. It talks about Abraham, Moses, and Jesus also. So when a Muslim comes around and tells me that Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet, on what basis should I test this? Please be specific when using large blocks of scripture. Romans 9 has whole sermons to talk about. It would be more useful especially to expound on the OT passages in this chapter to prove your point.

You miss my point. If you question salvation through Jesus and decide to depart from that belief, then, according to the Bible, New Testament of course, you will have your name erased from the book of life and loose what you seek.

And again you miss the point of Romans 9. It is ALL of Romans 9 that is applicable to the discussion. Instead of trying to pick it apart, just read it. Paul is discussing the Old Testament passages using those to testify to Jews and gentiles alike. Why should I discuss what Paul has already discussed? That is the reason I don't like theologians; I don't even like the word theology. We can't comprehend God's creation. How can we study God? Theologians pick the Word apart like lawyers pick apart the Constitution looking for exceptions and loopholes instead of taking it a face value and understanding that what it says is what it means. There are no secret decoder rings. I think you are loosing yourself trying to find something you already say you have.

dems4me · Aug 23, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
I ask a couple of questions to provoke thought.

What can we offer to God that He does not already have?

Why would we sacrifice something to God?

Odd, I was just reading the NIV this weekend and they had an entire section devoted to "does God still require sacrifices" as an intro to one of the New Testament books. (The answer was no). :smile:

I did get a kick out of the wording though when it talked about cults and California in another section. It was talking about people shoving "flowers in your face "and then said how cults are hard to avoid and the next sentence read... There are cults everywhere, especially "in California, in all of California." :killingme

:
It didn't seem like the NIV was very big on the state of California :lol:

2A, do you have an NIV with you - I believe it was on page 1242 (the beginning of Collasians (sp?)) it was kind of worded oddly - what's your take on that?. :shrug: I've never disagreed with a single word of the Bible or the NIV... but that had me a little puzzled that they would claim "all of Califrornia is a cult" :shrug:

2ndAmendment · Aug 23, 2005

dems4me said:
...
It didn't seem like the NIV was very big on the state of California
2A, do you have an NIV with you - I believe it was on page 1242 (the beginning of Collasians (sp?)) it was kind of worded oddly - what's your take on that?. :shrug: I've never disagreed with a single word of the Bible or the NIV... but that had me a little puzzled that they would claim "all of Califrornia is a cult" :shrug:

It really isn't the NIV. It is the publisher. Obviously any reference to California is not in any version of the Bible since California did not exist. Any such reference would be in the commentary added by the publisher like Zondervan, Concordia, or Bradman & Holman. The page number would vary by edition; large print, normal print, etc.

dems4me · Aug 23, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
It really isn't the NIV. It is the publisher. Obviously any reference to California is not in any version of the Bible since California did not exist. Any such reference would be in the commentary added by the publisher like Zondervan, Concordia, or Bradman & Holman. The page number would vary by edition; large print, normal print, etc.

Regluar print and it was Zondervan. Doesn't matter what page, it starts out at the beginning of Collassions (sp?) (where they usually explain a book before you read it or give you something to think of while reading the scripture in the next book... ) I just thought it was funny how they singled out California the way they did. I always revered the NIV and the Bible in the same vein.

And yes, no argument here, California was not around at the time the Bible was written... :lol:

Dondi · Aug 23, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
You miss my point. If you question salvation through Jesus and decide to depart from that belief, then, according to the Bible, New Testament of course, you will have your name erased from the book of life and loose what you seek.

You're telling me that something bad is going to happen if I question my salvation. Again, I don't see how God can blame me for seeking out answers. I'm not trying to run away from God, I'm trying to run to Him. I am seeking God with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

Psalms 9:10 - And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

And again you miss the point of Romans 9. It is ALL of Romans 9 that is applicable to the discussion. Instead of trying to pick it apart, just read it. Paul is discussing the Old Testament passages using those to testify to Jews and gentiles alike. Why should I discuss what Paul has already discussed? That is the reason I don't like theologians; I don't even like the word theology. We can't comprehend God's creation. How can we study God? Theologians pick the Word apart like lawyers pick apart the Constitution looking for exceptions and loopholes instead of taking it a face value and understanding that what it says is what it means. There are no secret decoder rings. I think you are loosing yourself trying to find something you already say you have.

Have you ever heard of term “hermeneutics”? It is the science and methodology of interpreting text, particularly the Bible. One of the foundational principles is textual context (http://www.lettersfrombabylon.com/2005/03/interpretation_.html . Textual context involves reading the passage surrounding the verses in question in order to provide a proper interpretation. It’s not a matter of picking the Word apart in order to find loopholes. It’s investigating the background of the verse to establish a proper framework.

Let me give you an example in Romans 9:

Romans 9:25,26 is a reference to Hosea 1:10. But if you look closely at the passage in Hosea 1:10 , it's not even talking about Gentiles, but the kingdom of Israel as God tells them that they will not be His people because of their rebellion against God. Vs. 6 clearly states God’s displeasure for the kingdom of Israel. However, in vs 7, God has mercy on the kingdom of Judah (the people were in divided kingdoms at that time). Vs 10 says that the kingdom of Israel is “not my people”, yet God promised to bring both kingdoms back together at a future date in vs 11. More details of Israel’s restoration is found Hosea 2:14-23.

There are numerous other examples of this in the NT. So I feel it’s vitally important to look into these OT verse as quoted in the NT. I know I'm sounding like a theologian, but I just like to know that what I'm reading squares up with the rest of scripture.

dems4me · Aug 24, 2005

Dondi said:
You're telling me that something bad is going to happen if I question my salvation. Again, I don't see how God can blame me for seeking out answers. I'm not trying to run away from God, I'm trying to run to Him. I am seeking God with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

Psalms 9:10 - And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Have you ever heard of term “hermeneutics”? It is the science and methodology of interpreting text, particularly the Bible. One of the foundational principles is textual context (http://www.lettersfrombabylon.com/2005/03/interpretation_.html . Textual context involves reading the passage surrounding the verses in question in order to provide a proper interpretation. It’s not a matter of picking the Word apart in order to find loopholes. It’s investigating the background of the verse to establish a proper framework.

Let me give you an example in Romans 9:

Romans 9:25,26 is a reference to Hosea 1:10. But if you look closely at the passage in Hosea 1:10 , it's not even talking about Gentiles, but the kingdom of Israel as God tells them that they will not be His people because of their rebellion against God. Vs. 6 clearly states God’s displeasure for the kingdom of Israel. However, in vs 7, God has mercy on the kingdom of Judah (the people were in divided kingdoms at that time). Vs 10 says that the kingdom of Israel is “not my people”, yet God promised to bring both kingdoms back together at a future date in vs 11. More details of Israel’s restoration is found Hosea 2:14-23.

There are numerous other examples of this in the NT. So I feel it’s vitally important to look into these OT verse as quoted in the NT. I know I'm sounding like a theologian, but I just like to know that what I'm reading squares up with the rest of scripture.

Goodness Dondi... ya' just had to say hermeneutics was comparing scripture in light of other scripture... :lol:

2ndAmendment · Aug 24, 2005

Dondi said:
You're telling me that something bad is going to happen if I question my salvation. Again, I don't see how God can blame me for seeking out answers. I'm not trying to run away from God, I'm trying to run to Him. I am seeking God with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

Psalms 9:10 - And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Have you ever heard of term “hermeneutics”? It is the science and methodology of interpreting text, particularly the Bible. One of the foundational principles is textual context (http://www.lettersfrombabylon.com/2005/03/interpretation_.html . Textual context involves reading the passage surrounding the verses in question in order to provide a proper interpretation. It’s not a matter of picking the Word apart in order to find loopholes. It’s investigating the background of the verse to establish a proper framework.

Let me give you an example in Romans 9:

Romans 9:25,26 is a reference to Hosea 1:10. But if you look closely at the passage in Hosea 1:10 , it's not even talking about Gentiles, but the kingdom of Israel as God tells them that they will not be His people because of their rebellion against God. Vs. 6 clearly states God’s displeasure for the kingdom of Israel. However, in vs 7, God has mercy on the kingdom of Judah (the people were in divided kingdoms at that time). Vs 10 says that the kingdom of Israel is “not my people”, yet God promised to bring both kingdoms back together at a future date in vs 11. More details of Israel’s restoration is found Hosea 2:14-23.

There are numerous other examples of this in the NT. So I feel it’s vitally important to look into these OT verse as quoted in the NT. I know I'm sounding like a theologian, but I just like to know that what I'm reading squares up with the rest of scripture.

I think you or whomever your are reading have lost what Hosea was saying. The Jews, specifically the people of Judah were God's people. Hosea prophesied of God "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'". God's people were the people of Judah. The gentiles became the people of God through Jesus. You will never get a non-Messianic Jew to admit that. Understanding the Old Testament is good. Letting the Old Testament replace the New Testament is going backwards. You may not see it that way, but there is no Christianity without the New Testament. There is no sacrifice provided by God to end the need for any more sacrifice without Jesus.

I think further discussion between you an I on this subject will be fruitless. I leave you to carry on with your quest. I hope you don't get "lost".

Railroad · Aug 24, 2005

Dondi, I don't know enough about the Talmud or the Jewish version of the Old Testament to understand how it all works for them. But from where I sit as a Christian, cutting the New Testament out of the picture and honestly expecting to both understand and believe in Salvation is like pulling the engine out of a tractor and expecting it to pull.

It's very difficult indeed to answer your questions without referring to the New Testament. I abandoned the effort because I don't have time to research other people's questions.

So I hope that your goal is either to get an in-depth education, or to prove to yourself that there is no comprehensive explanation in the Bible of Salvation except in the New Testament, or both.

Why don't you see if you can spend some time talking to a Rabbi about it? I think it would be a fascinating and educational interview.

Does God require sacrifices?

Dondi

Dondi

Dondi

New Member

Just a forgiven sinner

Just a forgiven sinner

Dondi

Just a forgiven sinner

Dondi

Routinely Derailed

Dondi

Dondi

Just a forgiven sinner

dems4me

Guest

Just a forgiven sinner

dems4me

Guest

Dondi

dems4me

Guest

Just a forgiven sinner

Routinely Derailed