Donald Trump has accepted Christ

[Larry Gude]

What does that have to do with life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness?

We could "fairly" assign each person a job at birth, or at 18 after testing, and control all people's wages, and limit all people to one religion, and limit all people to what they're allowed to say about government, and then it would all be fair and equal, so that would be liberty?

No, Larry, your pivot makes no sense.

I'll grant you it doesn't make any sense to you but I think it's more that you disagree with what I am using as a baseline and your example makes the point. To be assumed to be a terrorist, however briefly, is, if nothing else, the law for all. Then, after that temporary violation of our rights, we all go on to our different jobs and wages and religions and things we want to say and do, and choose to do.

While I agree with anyone who says the TSA, the assumption of guilt, the search and seizure, are text book examples of un or anti constitutionality, they are short term and nothing of the sort as you describe in terms of a day to day totalitarianism. Further, they're totally different in that one, you can complain about it. In the other you'd not be able to.

 

[Larry Gude]

Do you know why we have the electoral college? Kay said it best in Men in Black; "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Just because people vote for it does NOT make it not broken.

We are free to choose. That means it is not broken. A movie character playing at philosophy isn't exactly my idea of a reasoned point. By your argument, no matter what we choose at the ballot box, you could say it's broken. By the very virtue that Trump and Hillary are working at getting votes proves voting matters, however little, and, thus, that, by my score, the system isn't broken. That we choose crap is on us. That we can choose crap means we have...choice.

 

[Larry Gude]

You said that as a white man things are not as great for me because I gave up freedom and liberty to women, blacks, and gays. What did I give up? You said these things came at my expense....what did I pay?

I did not say you gave up freedom and liberty so that they could have it.

 

[Larry Gude]

You said that as a white man things are not as great for me because I gave up freedom and liberty to women, blacks, and gays. What did I give up? You said these things came at my expense....what did I pay?

You, me, white mean, paid in lost power over men and women. I suppose you could argue, as I did not, that it was our right to rule over them but, again, I refer back to the Declaration of Independence. We are all created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, among this are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[This_person]

I'll grant you it doesn't make any sense to you but I think it's more that you disagree with what I am using as a baseline and your example makes the point. To be assumed to be a terrorist, however briefly, is, if nothing else, the law for all. Then, after that temporary violation of our rights, we all go on to our different jobs and wages and religions and things we want to say and do, and choose to do.

While I agree with anyone who says the TSA, the assumption of guilt, the search and seizure, are text book examples of un or anti constitutionality, they are short term and nothing of the sort as you describe in terms of a day to day totalitarianism. Further, they're totally different in that one, you can complain about it. In the other you'd not be able to.

So, are you saying it is like chemotherapy - a little poison to kill off the worse thing?

Problem is, we have natural anti-bodies to kill off the worse thing, because it is not worse. The worse thing, terrorism, affects about nil.squat percent of us on a daily basis, but at around 60,000 flights/day in the US, at ~100 passengers per flight, 6,000,000 people per day are affected by the TSA alone. That's WAY more than are affected by terrorists. And, we can defeat terrorism with an armed and ready populace. Stop every act? No, of course not. Make it seem highly unlikely to succeed? Hellz yes.

 

[This_person]

We are free to choose. That means it is not broken. A movie character playing at philosophy isn't exactly my idea of a reasoned point. By your argument, no matter what we choose at the ballot box, you could say it's broken. By the very virtue that Trump and Hillary are working at getting votes proves voting matters, however little, and, thus, that, by my score, the system isn't broken. That we choose crap is on us. That we can choose crap means we have...choice.

Yes, and if I gave you the choice of pig #### or dog #### for dinner, you would have choice, too. When the choices are broken due to the process of selecting the choices being broken, the system is broken.

 

[This_person]

I did not say you gave up freedom and liberty so that they could have it.

What does "now have came at our expense" mean?

 

[This_person]

You, me, white mean, paid in lost power over men and women. I suppose you could argue, as I did not, that it was our right to rule over them but, again, I refer back to the Declaration of Independence. We are all created equal and endowed with certain inalienable rights, among this are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

What power did I lose? My vote still equals my vote, my right to speak on issues (even donating money as a form of exercising that right) still exists. I gave up no power whatsoever.

If you mean to suggest that we lost slaves, that's a nonsensical argument. Women owned slaves. Free black people owned slaves in the same population proportion as free white people where it was legal for people to own slaves. That was not a singularly white male thing.

 

[Larry Gude]

What does "now have came at our expense" mean?

Just what I said. If you are my slave and you get free, I lose power and the profit I used to derive from you. I did not lose any rights as, in my view of the DoI, I never had right to you in the first place. The law said I did but that law was unconstitutional and never right, let alone a right. You gained a right.

 

[Larry Gude]

So, are you saying it is like chemotherapy - a little poison to kill off the worse thing? .

???? No. How can I be more clear? Not only do I think the TSA unconstitutional, I think it has made matters worse because it gives the short term sense of security at the expense of long term dealing with the problem. I think it is wrong and does not work and makes matters worse.

 

[Larry Gude]

Yes, and if I gave you the choice of pig #### or dog #### for dinner, you would have choice, too. When the choices are broken due to the process of selecting the choices being broken, the system is broken.

And that, clearly, is not the case here. People can, do and will choose otherwise. The system is not broken. We CHOOSE this. We can choose otherwise.

 

[Larry Gude]

That was not a singularly white male thing.

OK, I think we're done for today. I'm not up for debating irrelevancies and minutiae.

 

[This_person]

Just what I said. If you are my slave and you get free, I lose power and the profit I used to derive from you. I did not lose any rights as, in my view of the DoI, I never had right to you in the first place. The law said I did but that law was unconstitutional and never right, let alone a right. You gained a right.

Okay, I think I answered that with "Women owned slaves. Free black people owned slaves in the same population proportion as free white people where it was legal for people to own slaves. That was not a singularly white male thing."

 

[This_person]

???? No. How can I be more clear? Not only do I think the TSA unconstitutional, I think it has made matters worse because it gives the short term sense of security at the expense of long term dealing with the problem. I think it is wrong and does not work and makes matters worse.

Then, why do you describe it as fair, and that we have great liberty (the greatest ever)?

 

[Larry Gude]

Then, why do you describe it as fair, and that we have great liberty (the greatest ever)?

Because f what I said. It is (or was) applied to all. In the past, we had laws that only applied to some.

 

[This_person]

And that, clearly, is not the case here. People can, do and will choose otherwise. The system is not broken. We CHOOSE this. We can choose otherwise.

We can't draft a president. We choose from the choices offered. The choices offered are pig #### and dog ####. They are that because of a process whereby only two parties matter, the leaders of the party put their thumbs on the scales, and the media help control the information making it to the potential voters - whose votes can be overridden by a coin toss or the ability to make it to a caucus.

It's broken.

 

[This_person]

Because f what I said. It is (or was) applied to all. In the past, we had laws that only applied to some.

So, we have the greatest liberty ever because even though we grossly violate the constitution, but we violate it equally for all so it's fair.

Really?

 

[Larry Gude]

We can't draft a president. We choose from the choices offered. The choices offered are pig #### and dog ####. They are that because of a process whereby only two parties matter, the leaders of the party put their thumbs on the scales, and the media help control the information making it to the potential voters - whose votes can be overridden by a coin toss or the ability to make it to a caucus.

It's broken.

Most people think Trump and Hillary are poor choices. I'm not voting for either one of them. Every single person who is voting for either of them is the problem. Your analogy only works in some alt universe where people HAVE to pick one or the other. Your view is nothing new. It is the view the system counts on because the people in power KNOW it's not true. So, they do all they can to keep up the illusion and you're simply helping them.

 

[Larry Gude]

So, we have the greatest liberty ever because even though we grossly violate the constitution, but we violate it equally for all so it's fair.

Really?

OK, so, we've got this far. You disagree with my view. So, what's yours? When was America great? What is Trump selling, a date? A time period? :shrug: You're not going to answer that because, like him, it would then present the challenge of all that was wrong at that time period that is far better now. Or, will you, unlike him, be willing to pick a time and defend it?

 

[This_person]

Most people think Trump and Hillary are poor choices. I'm not voting for either one of them. Every single person who is voting for either of them is the problem. Your analogy only works in some alt universe where people HAVE to pick one or the other. Your view is nothing new. It is the view the system counts on because the people in power KNOW it's not true. So, they do all they can to keep up the illusion and you're simply helping them.

I don't know who I am voting for yet, but none of the four running seem worthy of my vote.

I can vote for someone not running. If I do that, I might as well vote for me.

But, why don't we have all 17 major R's on the ballot, and all 4 major D's on the ballot, too? Why are parties controlling our elections, instead of people?