Fact or Fable ?

[2ndAmendment]

I would like to check out these books. Do they have names ?
I know that it's hard to understand where I am coming from.
I'm not confused with God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.
I just believe differently than any man's organized religion teachings
At the time that I first read the Bible out of my own need, I Didn't understand it and someone suggested the NIV and to pray for understanding before I read.
(good advice) However I knew absolutely nothing of any religion, so therefore I had none of Man's odd beliefs steering me in directions of their religions when I read. Which I feel is good, because I have seen how religions can manipulate the word and their members. So I can see how some brain washed people come up with the beliefs they have.
So I prayed and I read and I read and I read some more and I came up with my own beliefs with out the influence of Mans religions.
And I wonder just how many read the Bible for the first time with out any influence of religion.
Because I believe some story's are fables or folklores, doesn't mean I think any less of the Bible or less of God.
The way I look at some of the Bible is very innocent and almost child like. Much like the story of the boy who called Wolf. A very valuable lesson ,but not historic.
Considering the fact that superstitions and ignorance run amok in those days. Why shouldn't I believe the way I believe, whats wrong with it. Why do Church's have to insist that it is fact when it is not proved, it's a belief of their faith and their religion.
Why do people act like your going to hell if you don't believe how they believe.
To question someones Faith in God because of their beliefs is like questioning someones love for their children because they don't believe in raising their children the way you raise your own.(figuratively speaking)

The genealogy of Jesus is in Matthew 1. You can do a search in the Old Testament and find that only the last few generations are not specifically mentioned. All the generations from Abraham to the deportation to Babylon are found and a few after that.

If the Bible is not fact, what do we have to rely on? Nothing. I maintain that if any portion of the Bible is false then none of it can be trusted. If the account of creation is wrong then what makes the account of the resurrection of Jesus true? If the resurrection of Jesus is not true then how is anyone saved? It is the faith of a very young child, before they ever say "no" or "why", that we are to have. Remember that it was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat. The start of human knowledge was the beginning of sin. With that in mind, why would you pit human knowledge against the word of God?

 

[2ndAmendment]

I've been told that God perhaps suspended the laws of nature in that department. It's within his power to I suppose.

istbob and many others, me too at one time, want to squeeze God through the funnel of their own understanding rather than let God be the infinate God that He is. God created all things therefore all things are subject to His laws. He can suspend the laws of nature any time. God made the earth rotate backward here and no one even felt the change in motion. They only observed the shadow move backward.

2 Kings 20:9-11

<sup id="en-NASB-10108">9</sup>Isaiah said, "This shall be the sign to you from the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten steps or go back ten steps?"

<sup id="en-NASB-10109">10</sup>So Hezekiah answered, "It is easy for the shadow to decline ten steps; no, but let the shadow turn backward ten steps."

<sup id="en-NASB-10110">11</sup>Isaiah the prophet cried to the LORD, and He brought the shadow on the stairway back ten steps by which it had gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.

 

[crabcake]

Carlos Mencia (Mind of Mencia, Comedy Central) had this same discussion on one of his shows. "My priest tells me incest is bad, but if God created Adam and Eve, and only Adam and Eve, and they had 3 sons and a daughter, someone had to bone their sister."

 

[gumbo]

The genealogy of Jesus is in Matthew 1. You can do a search in the Old Testament and find that only the last few generations are not specifically mentioned. All the generations from Abraham to the deportation to Babylon are found and a few after that.

If the Bible is not fact, what do we have to rely on? Nothing. I maintain that if any portion of the Bible is false then none of it can be trusted. If the account of creation is wrong then what makes the account of the resurrection of Jesus true? If the resurrection of Jesus is not true then how is anyone saved? It is the faith of a very young child, before they ever say "no" or "why", that we are to have. Remember that it was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat. The start of human knowledge was the beginning of sin. With that in mind, why would you pit human knowledge against the word of God?

Your missing the point. There were witnesses at the resurrection of Christ and it was documented by witnesses, so therefore it's factual.
OK yes another angle. Jesus is God and Jesus often spoke in parables which are not factual. So then why wouldn't God inspire stories ?


If everything that is in the Bible is factual , Why would it tip toe around the sisters.
Also the book of Genesis stayed in order though out the story before it got to the genealogy. Wouldn't it been just as easy to say Eve gave birth to many and then go into the story of the brothers Cain and Able.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Your missing the point. There were witnesses at the resurrection of Christ and it was documented by witnesses, so therefore it's factual.
OK yes another angle. Jesus is God and Jesus often spoke in parables which are not factual. So then why wouldn't God inspire stories ?


If everything that is in the Bible is factual , Why would it tip toe around the sisters.
Also the book of Genesis stayed in order though out the story before it got to the genealogy. Wouldn't it been just as easy to say Eve gave birth to many and then go into the story of the brothers Cain and Able.

Jesus always told His disciples when He spoke in parables and He said, "The kingdom of heaven is like ..." indicating a simile. He did not say, "The kingdom of heaven is" when He was using a parable.

Good luck. Ask God. I gave what I have.

 

[Railroad]

I really don't think Gumbo is looking for answers from you or anybody else. I think he his just posting to start conversations. In all do respect I think sometimes the debates are taken a little too far when that is all they are...DEBATES. That's what this is all about isn't it? It's just a form of entertainment.

Ah! Silly me. I thought serious topics were treated seriously.

No doubt you're right, Sweetpea. (No sarcasm intended). What a stupid, twisted way to entertain oneself.

 

[gumbo]

Ah! Silly me. I thought serious topics were treated seriously.

No doubt you're right, Sweetpea. (No sarcasm intended). What a stupid, twisted way to entertain oneself.

Sounds sarcastic to me !

If debates weren't entertaining why does TV air them ?

I find other peoples views entertaining , I suppose you have a problem with that too !
Or do you just have a problem with opinions that don't coincide with yours.

 

[itsbob]

Good point. I'd like to see some evidence that suggests there were other couples around at that moment in time, as well.

Where does it say they were? If God had a master plan, and didn't want a planet of rednecks, wouldn't he have supplied a varied field to sow? GOD didn't chose Adam and Eve to be in the "book", God annointed Adam, the authors of the bible wrote about it.

God created many peoples around the world, and probably elsewhere in the universe, but a story, or lineage has to be started somewhere.. this is JESUS' lineage.. Adam and Eve were chosen for the bible due to lineage and the priesthood...

God annointed Adam, so the story begins with Adam..

 

[Penn]

Where does it say they were? If God had a master plan, and didn't want a planet of rednecks, wouldn't he have supplied a varied field to sow? GOD didn't chose Adam and Eve to be in the "book", God annointed Adam, the authors of the bible wrote about it.

God created many peoples around the world, and probably elsewhere in the universe, but a story, or lineage has to be started somewhere.. this is JESUS' lineage.. Adam and Eve were chosen for the bible due to lineage and the priesthood...

God annointed Adam, so the story begins with Adam..

That "author" was Moses, I believe.

Yep, Adam was created first, as far as I can recall, and then God took a rib from Adam's abdomen and created Eve. So, she was the first woman, we believe.

That much is in scripture. But the supposition that there were other couples around at the same time, is just that. I haven't read anything of it, and can't comment on it, if you get my meaning.

Was it posssible? Yeah, maybe, but where does one find information even hinting at it?

 

[itsbob]

That "author" was Moses, I believe.

Yep, Adam was created first, as far as I can recall, and then God took a rib from Adam's abdomen and created Eve. So, she was the first woman, we believe.

That much is in scripture. But the supposition that there were other couples around at the same time, is just that. I haven't read anything of it, and can't comment on it, if you get my meaning.

Was it posssible? Yeah, maybe, but where does one find information even hinting at it?

Lets see, we're not all named Jeb...

We're not monosyllabic..

We have progressed from Gregorian Chant..

We made fire...

AND the NUMBER one answer.. does the bible mention Adam and Eve's children marrying each other, having children together? And wasn't this one of the unholiest of sins in Sodom?? Why would he condone it for Adam, then destroy a whole city because of it?

 

[Penn]

Lets see, we're not all named Jeb...

We're not monosyllabic..

We have progressed from Gregorian Chant..

We made fire...

AND the NUMBER one answer.. does the bible mention Adam and Eve's children marrying each other, having children together? And wasn't this one of the unholiest of sins in Sodom?? Why would he condone it for Adam, then destroy a whole city because of it?

I think 2nd A answered most of that; at that time, there had to be incest if they were going to "be fruitful and multiply", a race of people "who would be counted as numerous as the sands on the shore", or something like that.

It was understood, I think, it had to happen that way.

BTW, Sodom and Gomorrah were several hundred years later, still doing that act, when there was no need for it anymore, and that's one of the reasons God punished them, eh?

 

[itsbob]

I think 2nd A answered most of that; at that time, there had to be incest if they were going to "be fruitful and multiply", a race of people "who would be counted as numerous as the sands on the shore", or something like that.

It was understood, I think, it had to happen that way.

BTW, Sodom and Gomorrah were several hundred years later, still doing that act, when there was no need for it anymore, and that's one of the reasons God punished them, eh?

Nope, don't buy that argument..

Didn't HAVE to be incest if God thought his plan through and delivered more then just these two.. was there a lack of dust on the planet where he could only make ONE man?? God was the consumate program manager, and this program was going to last MILLIONS of years.. I'm sure he thought it all through.. and planned generation after generation until we got here..

And one of the problems in society now is what you mention.. it was ok for Adam and Eve, but not 700 years later.. Sin is sin, no matter what time frame you are in.. THe basis for getting into heaven is not different today because it is 2005... and you aren't going to get in because.. well, yeah I'm a sinner, but not as bad as the SMith's and JOne's... and I wuold think the rules for Adam and Eve were the same rules 700 years later.

 

[gumbo]

I think 2nd A answered most of that; at that time, there had to be incest if they were going to "be fruitful and multiply", a race of people "who would be counted as numerous as the sands on the shore", or something like that.

It was understood, I think, it had to happen that way.

BTW, Sodom and Gomorrah were several hundred years later, still doing that act, when there was no need for it anymore, and that's one of the reasons God punished them, eh?

Gen 4:14(others) if it is fact why tippy toe around it.
Do you have any idea how retarded that bunch would have been ,not to mention the deformities. The Royal family proved you can't breed that close with cousins and were talking alot closer than cousins

 

[Penn]

Gen 4:14(others) if it is fact why tippy toe around it.

Do you have any idea how retarded that bunch would have been ,not to mention the deformities.

Who says they weren't? If you read the Old Testament, the Israelites were some pretty messed up folks. Always seemed to be unable to keep their Lord's covenents!

The fools kept idols, and practiced all kinds of weird crap, seriously pizzing Him off. No wonder He came down hard on them, even giving them enough leeway to follow their own paths; and allowing them to get themselves into harrowing situations.

Remember the "free will" bit?

He had to give them their head; Sure, there had to have been some "righteous" ones in the crowd, but for the large part, they were paganistic.

It is written: He was slow to anger, but a God can only stand so much, then He would rain down calamities on them if/when they broke the rules.

"You want to head over to Egypt? Fine, I can arrange that. Of course, you won't leave there for something like 400 hundred years, and it's not going to be a cakewalk, either!"

I remember taking a class called Disciple; reading/debating what had happened during that time, and thinking: the rules were fairly straight forward, and these people just couldn't seem to get it right.

Oh well, it must have been a heck of a learning period.

 

[gumbo]

Actually Fact or Fable & Proof you say ! are two threads of three.
Proof you say part 2..God doesn't err .(coming soon )

Being that God doesn't err there would be no need for incest !
Incest is definitely an err !
Either the Bible is with err or God is with err, but if you look at Genesis like I do as a fable then there are no mistakes by either God nor the Bible.
But if you look at Genesis as if it were a historic fact ,then your saying God also created incest, no no no God is with out err.
So now we are left with questioning the Bible. Did the Bible create incest with Genesis? No no no the Bible does not mention incest in Genesis either. So guess what that means, man's religious beliefs created incest, but only because they insist Genesis is factual.

 

[Railroad]

Actually Fact or Fable & Proof you say ! are two threads of three.
Proof you say part 2..God doesn't err .(coming soon )

Being that God doesn't err there would be no need for incest !
Incest is definitely an err !
Either the Bible is with err or God is with err, but if you look at Genesis like I do as a fable then there are no mistakes by either God nor the Bible.
But if you look at Genesis as if it were a historic fact ,then your saying God also created incest, no no no God is with out err.
So now we are left with questioning the Bible. Did the Bible create incest with Genesis? No no no the Bible does not mention incest in Genesis either. So guess what that means, man's religious beliefs created incest, but only because they insist Genesis is factual.

Errr...calm down, gummy.

 

[Railroad]

After a little thought, I've decided that yes I am indeed close-minded when it comes to Christian issues. I don't have to scrutinize the Bible and know all the answers to accept that it is 100% true, cover to cover. And arguing about it (yes, arguments and debates are the same, and both can be had without anger - ask any lawyer or judge) doesn't change the facts. I choose to believe the Truth and to view those who don't as stubborn in their denial of Christ. Those people cause me to feel two emotions: anger at them because, having been exposed to the Word they still choose to deny it, and pity for them because as a fellow human, I hate to see people doomed.

So yup, I'm a close-minded bigot, praying for all who haven't repented of their sins and asked for Jesus' forgiveness.

I'm not a big proponent of organized religion, and I myself don't dress up and go to Church on Sunday. There are several reasons for that, the most practical of them being that it's difficult to get Mrs. RR ready to go anyplace at any time, especially early on Sunday morning.

Just as (apparently) there's nothing I can say to change your mind, I can assure you there's nothing you can say to change mine. If you want to cook up reasoning against being a Christian or believing the Bible (the two DO go hand-in-hand), you can expect me or 2A to disagree with you. But be fair; treat the topic seriously and with more respect than you might think it deserves.

 

[2ndAmendment]

That "author" was Moses, I believe.

Yep, Adam was created first, as far as I can recall, and then God took a rib from Adam's abdomen and created Eve. So, she was the first woman, we believe.

That much is in scripture. But the supposition that there were other couples around at the same time, is just that. I haven't read anything of it, and can't comment on it, if you get my meaning.

Was it posssible? Yeah, maybe, but where does one find information even hinting at it?

Good discernment Penn.

istbob is just giving supposition.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Lets see, we're not all named Jeb...

We're not monosyllabic..

We have progressed from Gregorian Chant..

We made fire...

AND the NUMBER one answer.. does the bible mention Adam and Eve's children marrying each other, having children together? And wasn't this one of the unholiest of sins in Sodom?? Why would he condone it for Adam, then destroy a whole city because of it?

In the beginning, there was no sin, because there was no knowledge of good and evil. The original sin was disobeying God by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Gen 4:14(others) if it is fact why tippy toe around it.
Do you have any idea how retarded that bunch would have been ,not to mention the deformities. The Royal family proved you can't breed that close with cousins and were talking alot closer than cousins

Adam and Eve were created perfect without sin. There would have been no combination of genes to create retardation or deformities since their genes were perfect at the time. Death for mankind did not exist while they were in the state of perfection and walking with God.

All this discussion is man trying to hold God to man's rules stuffing God through the funnel of their own understanding. Sorry. God does not have to obey man's rules; we are supposed to obey His.