Fast Food workers wanting 15.00 an hour..really..

[GURPS]

Huh? Nobody gives you skills, you acquire them yourself. These people have chosen to be serfs. They have chosen to be uneducated and lazy, they have chosen to have bad habits, and they have chosen to be poor. There are a million opportunities to acquire skills in this country and I am living proof of that, as are any number of other people.

you and I, and others were challenged in school and by our parents to learn
... otherwise we probably got out ass beat
- I know I took several trips to the wood shed, my wife says she was 12 before those little paddles came with a ball on a string ....


educators and a lot of parents [read liberals] don't want little tyrek or sherika to 'fail' or be held back in school, so children are not challenged, instead they are passed along, class after class, and taught they can get what they want - money to buy things, just by existing in life .... no need to exert yourself 'working'


if Progressives were really educating people, and not raising the next generation of welfare recipients ... things would be different

 

[Larry Gude]

You used to understand how money worked - what happened? I don't necessarily agree with the bailouts because I tend toward the "burn it down and start over" method of recovery, but I certainly understand why Bush did it.

There were a large number of people who would have lost income had the financial institutions not been bailed out. Not just Wall Street and banking types and investors themselves, but think of the money they hemorrhage just supporting their lifestyle. You used to understand that rich people didn't tuck their cash into the mattress; that they spent it and spread it around. From household employees to car dealerships to travel agencies to real estate agents.... Contrary to what the idiot Left says, trickle down works. Trickle down is the *way* it works; the way it's *always* worked.

Fast food workers are towards the bottom of the downline. They are low (sometimes zero) skilled and they are largely uneducated - these people aren't even good enough or smart enough to work in a real restaurant. If they're spending years and years working fast food, they gave up the American dream a long time ago and perhaps never had it in the first place. I don't think they should be rewarded for that. Fast food is supposed to be for young people and second income, not a career position.

I'm not the one that thought TARP and bailing out GM were good ideas. I don't think quantitative easing is smart.


My point is what I thought I knew, THEY changed. Not me. If anything, I am just trying to figure out the new rules THEY insist I play by.

 

[Larry Gude]

Fast food workers are towards the bottom of the downline. They are low (sometimes zero) skilled and they are largely uneducated - these people aren't even good enough or smart enough to work in a real restaurant. If they're spending years and years working fast food, they gave up the American dream a long time ago and perhaps never had it in the first place. I don't think they should be rewarded for that. Fast food is supposed to be for young people and second income, not a career position.

And that used to be the way it was. You and I didn't have to compete with illegals willing to do it for less. We didn't have to deal with an economy that rewarded making money on money more than it rewarded hard work and good decision making. We didn't grow up in a world where a little college cost 3 and 4 times what you could make a year from that degree. School used to matter. Now, it's what you do to avoid growing up. Our economy is all about war and medicine and we have one out of 4 who is actually working where the money is. When we were kids, there was a LOT more options because everything didn't cost so damn much.

The kids are NOT dealing with the world we grew up in.

 

[Larry Gude]

I remember way back when I studied the Roman Republic in college, it became apparent that as strongly held as the principles of "res publica" - the public thing - were, it was clear that many aspects of Roman society were going to lead to empire, sooner or later. Traditions such as patronage which led to a kind of sanctioned corruption - stratas of society belonging to the business class, not to mention simple class distinctions - sooner or later it led to fewer and fewer men taking the reigns of power.

But when you look at it - there was nothing in place to keep it from happening. It was all -- "legal". No one really saw it coming, but there was nothing really illegal about it all.

I can easily see how this happens with us, but I can also see a problem that contributes to it. Low skilled workers. Low quality education. When you churn out people in the education system who can barely make change, with the advancement of technology you're going to have a huge disparity of income between the bottom and the top.

You ever see those web pages that show "stuff your great grandpa and grandma could do in their sleep - but you're clueless about"? I don't know about you, but my great grandparents worked in a way that I couldn't do now. I still see the tree-stump wall they left on their farm a century ago, because they converted a dozen acres to farmland by pulling out large trees with oxen. I'm convinced a great deal of income disparity occurs because we have so very many people who just don't have any skills at all lining up for jobs.

I think that's a great point and explanation of the problems we face and, as I have said, I think we are simply living in the time of the decline of the United States of America.

As for me, personally, what I do, is rare these days for an American in America; I make things. Nothing fancy but, to your point, I still live, sort of, in that old world where your hands mattered. We do, we think, we come up with ways to approach how plants are handled and dealt with. I have some super kewl things going on right now that are the epitome of old school thinking. Just hope they work!

 

[Gilligan]

As for me, personally, what I do, is rare these days for an American in America; I make things.

That's what I've always done and still do as well. I'm quite certain that I should have been roughly 100 years earlier...when what one individual could do with hands and brain really created a lot of amazing things.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's what I've always done and still do as well. I'm quite certain that I should have been roughly 100 years earlier...when what one individual could do with hands and brain really created a lot of amazing things.

George Will wrote a piece something like 20 years ago on this very topic. His circle of buddies had lunch one day and the question is "Who makes something anymore?" They all realized that not only did none of them earn a living off of making things anymore but, none of them knew anyone that did.

You bring all your #### up here to help support and protect the greenhouses and we'll be able to survive off of growing food year round. We'll need air to air capability, lots of motion detection, signal defeat capability, drone coordination, some pressure plates, a reactor....

 

[vraiblonde]

you and I, and others were challenged in school and by our parents to learn
... otherwise we probably got out ass beat

Not me. I think my mother was only vaguely aware that I even went to school.

if Progressives were really educating people, and not raising the next generation of welfare recipients ... things would be different

But they aren't educating people, and they never will be. They are feel-good vote pandering political hacks. Why do you think they bawl about raising the minimum wage and other silly income redistribution schemes?

So they raise the minimum wage, which escalates prices, which puts them back in the same buying category as they were before - poor. Then in a few years they'll want to raise the minimum wage again. Minimum wage has never made someone wealthy, and I have never seen a raise in minimum wage raise someone's standard of living. That's not the way money works. The only reason low income workers are excited about minimum wage increases is because they're stupid and don't know how things work. They just think they're getting free money.

 

[Gilligan]

We'll need air to air capability, lots of motion detection, signal defeat capability, drone coordination, some pressure plates, a reactor....

OK..sure. Anything else?

 

[SamSpade]

As for me, personally, what I do, is rare these days for an American in America; I make things. Nothing fancy but, to your point, I still live, sort of, in that old world where your hands mattered.

My dad and I often have discussions related to this. It's one of the areas in which I appreciate the extent of his wisdom, and my world will be so much poorer when it is gone.

He often says that the basis of all wealth is farming and mining. Raw materials. I'd probably also add manufacturing - it's one thing to shear sheep, collect goo from silkworms or pick cotton, but it takes brains and skill and work to make it into clothing.

But that is CREATING wealth. Something of value exists, because someone created it out of raw materials, or they grew it in their backyard, or they carved it out of something. Wealth is created, and is continually created. And that's odd to so many of my left-leaning relatives, because they always speak as though wealth is finite, and people only get rich by exploiting the poor. If wealth were limited, that would make sense - if there was only a thousand dollars' worth of wealth, and everyone contributed equally to making it, then in a fair world, everyone would have the same. But in an unfair exploitative world, the rich would take it or otherwise get it from the poor.

But I can walk out my back door, wind some dried grape vines into a wreath and my wife can decorate it to make a thing of value. I have MADE something valuable. I can cut down a tree and make a table. I can grow things in my garden and sell them - or better, make them into something even more valuable. If I was REALLY smart, I could grow herbs and extract something even MORE valuable. That's how wealth gets created. Brains, brawn, raw materials.

My dad and I love these discussions.

My son LOVES "How It's Made". We watch the brilliance in manufacturing to things as simple as tea and coffee and paper to school buses and Twinkies and space shuttles. This is "making wealth". It is an easy course in seeing how brains makes the world we live in.

-------------------------------------

On the other hand - everything away from this exploits the situations "down the line". Bankers, lawyers, doctors - they don't really create wealth. They provide a vital service that people will pay to have. I suppose you could say that doctors create "health" but not really. In reality, most people make their money this way - way down the line from raw materials and manufacturing. (Although I think recently, places such as bakeries were reclassified as manufacturing). What they do is still important. Without services, our civilization couldn't work. Transporting goods doesn't create wealth, but it's still vital to civilization.

Eventually we come to the area where people really aren't creating anything - or even providing a service at all. They make money legally - but they're the modern equivalent of gamblers and pirates. When people make money by almost literally taking it from others, they're not creating anything.

 

[Larry Gude]

So they raise the minimum wage, which escalates prices, which puts them back in the same buying category as they were before - poor. Then in a few years they'll want to raise the minimum wage again. Minimum wage has never made someone wealthy, and I have never seen a raise in minimum wage raise someone's standard of living. That's not the way money works. The only reason low income workers are excited about minimum wage increases is because they're stupid and don't know how things work. They just think they're getting free money.

Wages are NOT the problem. Wages are not the reason people lost homes and jobs and business's. Wages have been flat for decades now while everything else costs more. Homes, cars, food, clothing, health, energy.

The solution is not to raise wages per se but, we can't ignore the reality that you can't just go get a hair cut and get a real job and be on your way anymore. The most determined will find a way. They always have, do and will but, that's not what this is about. This is about the masses who simply don't know what to do anymore nor do they see anything in the way of hope or a path forward.

When the herd is having trouble finding food and water and feels threatened, they get restless. That's the simplest I can put it. My last batch of help this last year were AWFUL. They are dumb, lazy, and feel stunningly entitled. And I went through a lot just to get them.

Things have changed and not for the better.

 

[Larry Gude]

My dad and I often have discussions related to this. It's one of the areas in which I appreciate the extent of his wisdom, and my world will be so much poorer when it is gone.

He often says that the basis of all wealth is farming and mining. Raw materials. I'd probably also add manufacturing - it's one thing to shear sheep, collect goo from silkworms or pick cotton, but it takes brains and skill and work to make it into clothing.

But that is CREATING wealth. Something of value exists, because someone created it out of raw materials, or they grew it in their backyard, or they carved it out of something. Wealth is created, and is continually created. And that's odd to so many of my left-leaning relatives, because they always speak as though wealth is finite, and people only get rich by exploiting the poor. If wealth were limited, that would make sense - if there was only a thousand dollars' worth of wealth, and everyone contributed equally to making it, then in a fair world, everyone would have the same. But in an unfair exploitative world, the rich would take it or otherwise get it from the poor.

But I can walk out my back door, wind some dried grape vines into a wreath and my wife can decorate it to make a thing of value. I have MADE something valuable. I can cut down a tree and make a table. I can grow things in my garden and sell them - or better, make them into something even more valuable. If I was REALLY smart, I could grow herbs and extract something even MORE valuable. That's how wealth gets created. Brains, brawn, raw materials.

My dad and I love these discussions.

My son LOVES "How It's Made". We watch the brilliance in manufacturing to things as simple as tea and coffee and paper to school buses and Twinkies and space shuttles. This is "making wealth". It is an easy course in seeing how brains makes the world we live in.

-------------------------------------

On the other hand - everything away from this exploits the situations "down the line". Bankers, lawyers, doctors - they don't really create wealth. They provide a vital service that people will pay to have. I suppose you could say that doctors create "health" but not really. In reality, most people make their money this way - way down the line from raw materials and manufacturing. (Although I think recently, places such as bakeries were reclassified as manufacturing). What they do is still important. Without services, our civilization couldn't work. Transporting goods doesn't create wealth, but it's still vital to civilization.

Eventually we come to the area where people really aren't creating anything - or even providing a service at all. They make money legally - but they're the modern equivalent of gamblers and pirates. When people make money by almost literally taking it from others, they're not creating anything.

And you reveal both the problem and why it won't get fixed; we're losing that ability to even comprehend wealth creation let alone doing it. Now, we just accept that we just print more money. Health care is free. War has no consequences. Energy comes from, uh...err... somewhere. Food, all of it...


Obama did get that right; he placated the restless masses by rejuvenating their previously over inflated portfolios by re-over inflating them. Bernanke and Geithner were right there; "Here! Let's just make it up! Again!"

Lot easier than telling us we gotta work for it.

 

[SamSpade]

Minimum wage has never made someone wealthy, and I have never seen a raise in minimum wage raise someone's standard of living. That's not the way money works. The only reason low income workers are excited about minimum wage increases is because they're stupid and don't know how things work. They just think they're getting free money.

They eventually are making the same money which is worth the same as their old money. It's like the guy who wakes up from a coma and finds he's a billionaire - and then finds out it costs a million bucks to make a phone call.

You make money by learning a skill and working your ass off. It's not the same as coming home tired from working. I worked briefly as a roofer with some guys we helped escape from a Central American banana republic. They'd been engineers and bankers, and were now doing roofing. I got as much done as all three of them combined. They asked me why - they were going to get better jobs, some day - why should I work so hard for eight bucks an hour? I told them for one thing, THEY got eight, I just got promoted to nine and a half and they wanted me to be a supervisor (even though I ALSO was an out of work engineer). The other was, no way you're getting a good job doing a weak ass effort.

I had a roommate once who worked in a sandwich shop. He spent most of his days off spending all his money on my sister or sleeping. But he couldn't keep a job. If he didn't feel like getting up, he'd roll over and say he'd just get another job tomorrow. Such was his work ethic. I told my sister God help you if you marry this twerp, because you'll be supporting him. She told me that's how HIS father does it.

No ambition. Now, I'm marginally ambitious. I probably am only a stone's throw from him; I was born with a better set of skills, and I've parlayed them into a life where I am comfortable. But this guy? He's gone nowhere. Probably one of those sandwich shop guys clamoring for more "equal pay".

 

[vraiblonde]

When we were kids, there was a LOT more options because everything didn't cost so damn much.

Sure, stuff costs money, but we don't need most of it. Cellphones, junk food, fake fingernails...we don't need that crap. We need food and shelter.

Monello and I just finished watching "Frontier House", where three modern families are tossed into the Montana wilderness for five months to live like settlers did in the late 1800s. To the extent that two of the families have to actually build their own home. All of them - including the young children - grow food, raise livestock, cook in a woodstove, carry water from the creek, put up food for the winter... It's as authentic as possible, and watching it makes you realize that we don't need all the crap we surround ourselves with these days.

The reason illegals come over here and take the grunt jobs is because they're used to having less and can live without it. Some ghetto whore, by contrast, thinks the world owes her and she ain't gonna lift a finger to better herself. Those people should have died off, and they would have if we'd leave them alone and stop feeding them. We could shut our borders right now and evict every illegal immigrant in this country, and the ghetto dwellers will be no better off.

Illegal immigration is NOT what is preventing people from working - they could do the same thing some Mexican does; they just don't want to. They live no better in the 'hood than some illegal does with his extended family crammed into a 2 bedroom apartment, but the illegal gets up and goes to work every day, whereas the ghetto punk lays on his ass or engages in criminal activity.

 

[Larry Gude]

Sure, stuff costs money, but we don't need most of it. Cellphones, junk food, fake fingernails...we don't need that crap. We need food and shelter.

Monello and I just finished watching "Frontier House", where three modern families are tossed into the Montana wilderness for five months to live like settlers did in the late 1800s. To the extent that two of the families have to actually build their own home. All of them - including the young children - grow food, raise livestock, cook in a woodstove, carry water from the creek, put up food for the winter... It's as authentic as possible, and watching it makes you realize that we don't need all the crap we surround ourselves with these days.

The reason illegals come over here and take the grunt jobs is because they're used to having less and can live without it. Some ghetto whore, by contrast, thinks the world owes her and she ain't gonna lift a finger to better herself. Those people should have died off, and they would have if we'd leave them alone and stop feeding them. We could shut our borders right now and evict every illegal immigrant in this country, and the ghetto dwellers will be no better off.

Illegal immigration is NOT what is preventing people from working - they could do the same thing some Mexican does; they just don't want to. They live no better in the 'hood than some illegal does with his extended family crammed into a 2 bedroom apartment, but the illegal gets up and goes to work every day, whereas the ghetto punk lays on his ass or engages in criminal activity.

And I agree with every word in there. However, if your plan is to bring back 1889, I think that's gonna be a bit of a struggle.

 

[Hijinx]

Sure, stuff costs money, but we don't need most of it. Cellphones, junk food, fake fingernails...we don't need that crap. We need food and shelter.

Monello and I just finished watching "Frontier House", where three modern families are tossed into the Montana wilderness for five months to live like settlers did in the late 1800s. To the extent that two of the families have to actually build their own home. All of them - including the young children - grow food, raise livestock, cook in a woodstove, carry water from the creek, put up food for the winter... It's as authentic as possible, and watching it makes you realize that we don't need all the crap we surround ourselves with these days.

The reason illegals come over here and take the grunt jobs is because they're used to having less and can live without it. Some ghetto whore, by contrast, thinks the world owes her and she ain't gonna lift a finger to better herself. Those people should have died off, and they would have if we'd leave them alone and stop feeding them. We could shut our borders right now and evict every illegal immigrant in this country, and the ghetto dwellers will be no better off.

Illegal immigration is NOT what is preventing people from working - they could do the same thing some Mexican does; they just don't want to. They live no better in the 'hood than some illegal does with his extended family crammed into a 2 bedroom apartment, but the illegal gets up and goes to work every day, whereas the ghetto punk lays on his ass or engages in criminal activity.

Roughly said ,but contains a lot of truth.

 

[Larry Gude]

Roughly said ,but contains a lot of truth.

It does but, it does not address the real world disparity between a world, 30 years ago, where an executive made about 30 times his people and the one we live in now where he makes 300 times AND his people's buying power has declined.

In 1950 a good electrician made $5,000 a year and a nice little 3 bedroom in Arlington, brick, cost about $5,000. Today, that house would be, what, $300,000? And a good electrician makes maybe $50,000

We are WAY out of balance.

 

[vraiblonde]

And I agree with every word in there. However, if your plan is to bring back 1889, I think that's gonna be a bit of a struggle.

My point is that illegal immigration is not to blame for American poverty. You, I, or anyone else can do the jobs that illegals have "taken" for the same money they make - we just don't want to. We say, "Oh, I can't live on that..." when what we mean is that we don't want to. Jose and Consuela manage to live on it just fine.

 

[vraiblonde]

We are WAY out of balance.

Now think about how we got that way. Hint: It wasn't through CEO salaries.

 

[Larry Gude]

Now think about how we got that way. Hint: It wasn't through CEO salaries.

The hell it isn't!!! Come on!!!! You look at any data concerning income and expenses and starting right around when Clinton took office and signed into law the new tax stuff whereby all of a sudden execs were motivated by stock price and not profit and loss, and you can trace what is wrong with this nation. When the ONLY thing that matters is stock price because the potential pay off is so enormous, then, that is all that will matter.

Jobs shipped over seas. Cheap labor. Buying up competitors. Any and everything that made that stock price pop. And, everyone who owned stock grew to expect those great numbers.

Enron. Arther Anderson. Lying about your books. The end of Glass/Steagal. All of that. Everything started blowing all out of whack and executive pay, executive motivation is at the center of it.

 

[Larry Gude]

My point is that illegal immigration is not to blame for American poverty. You, I, or anyone else can do the jobs that illegals have "taken" for the same money they make - we just don't want to. We say, "Oh, I can't live on that..." when what we mean is that we don't want to. Jose and Consuela manage to live on it just fine.

If we're paying an illegal $10 an hour to do X and we're paying lil Johnny $10 an hour in unemployment, the net cost of that job, to the economy, is $20 an hour. That IS what we're doing. But, Johnny is sitting on his ass and the illegal is sending his money home. Johnny isn't moving up. Has no pride in work.

So, you go back to that chart I showed where if wages kept pace with the rate of increase in executive pay, a job Johnny wouldn't do for $10 becomes one he'd be happy to do for $20 and ALL that stays here at home AND he is working AND he is growing.

And this is to say nothing of the costs of illegals in terms of services we now say they are entitled to; education, health, etc.