Football question
- Thread starter Ken King
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Larry Gude
Strung Out
I think you are 100% right...
...my dear. They keep winning, there it is. But they lost to Denver. Mark was horrible on the last drive until he was gifted two penalties that had NOTHING to do with the play, to keep alive.
I'm just resident ##### about all this. The team is, I agree with you, working hard for Mark. They believe in him.
Hopefully, we'll be talking about Marks breakout game of 3-4 touchdowns next week. We're gonna need it because keeping KC under 21 ain't gonna be easy or likely.
...my dear. They keep winning, there it is. But they lost to Denver. Mark was horrible on the last drive until he was gifted two penalties that had NOTHING to do with the play, to keep alive.
I'm just resident ##### about all this. The team is, I agree with you, working hard for Mark. They believe in him.
Hopefully, we'll be talking about Marks breakout game of 3-4 touchdowns next week. We're gonna need it because keeping KC under 21 ain't gonna be easy or likely.
And this is what you didn't see when Ramsey was in there. I remember watching last year (and early this year) that it seemed every play was an audible because Ramsey was being confused by the defense. This is what I think got him benched by Gibbs, the inability to read a defense or staying with the called play when the defense shifts alignment.Larry Gude said:
Larry Gude
Strung Out
There is NO doubt...
...that Pat was not doing what Gibbs wanted. I'm not arguing that. What I know is that Pat was moving the team and drove to a TD against the Bears, which was called back on a penalty. 1 quarter and a few minutes and that's all we have to go on as to if he was on his way this year, in the begining of his fourth season with only 24 starts, to being a solid quarterback or not. He was 6 of 11 and averaging 9.5 per attempt. He was attacking downfield.
Brunnel is 6.5 an attempt after 3 full games.
For further misery, Brunnel threw for 4,200 yards his fourth year with 19 tds and 20 picks after doing nothing year 1 and 2 and only 2,000 yards year three, in 13 games to Ramseys 1,600 in nine games his year three. In other words, he, Mark, was given year four. He started all 16 games, opened 1-4, they were 4-7 after 11 and finished with 5 straight wins to finish 9-7.
And lost to New England in the AFC Championship game, cementing Brunnell as a top QB for the next 6 years.
Ken King said:
...that Pat was not doing what Gibbs wanted. I'm not arguing that. What I know is that Pat was moving the team and drove to a TD against the Bears, which was called back on a penalty. 1 quarter and a few minutes and that's all we have to go on as to if he was on his way this year, in the begining of his fourth season with only 24 starts, to being a solid quarterback or not. He was 6 of 11 and averaging 9.5 per attempt. He was attacking downfield.
Brunnel is 6.5 an attempt after 3 full games.
For further misery, Brunnel threw for 4,200 yards his fourth year with 19 tds and 20 picks after doing nothing year 1 and 2 and only 2,000 yards year three, in 13 games to Ramseys 1,600 in nine games his year three. In other words, he, Mark, was given year four. He started all 16 games, opened 1-4, they were 4-7 after 11 and finished with 5 straight wins to finish 9-7.
And lost to New England in the AFC Championship game, cementing Brunnell as a top QB for the next 6 years.
AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
Larry with all due respect but are we watching the same two players? With Ramsey at the helm I gotta think that we would be 1-3 this year just cause the fact Brunnel was able to pick up some yards on the ground when we needed it in key situations, we both know Ramsey ain't gonna do that. Not to mention I am sure Ramsey would already have Brunnel beat in the turnover deptarment if he had been playing all along.
Uncle Charlie
Beer is Good!!!!
You can't win taking points off the board...
I am a die hard Redskin fan, but, even with bad officiating, you won't win when points come off the board.
A called back touchdown due to a penalty, a called back 54 yard field goal due to a penalty, kills the chance to win.
Stop the penalties and RECOVER more turnovers and you'll win. The defense is playing very well, and the offense had a good day yesterday. Portis over 100 yards rushing, Brunell with over 300 yards passing, they controlled the ball and they STILL lost. Penalties and giving back points kill you.
Denver didn't out play the Redskins, the Redskins under played themselves.
Of course, it was still better than the Ravens game although that was a pitiful excuse for a game...
I am a die hard Redskin fan, but, even with bad officiating, you won't win when points come off the board.
A called back touchdown due to a penalty, a called back 54 yard field goal due to a penalty, kills the chance to win.
Stop the penalties and RECOVER more turnovers and you'll win. The defense is playing very well, and the offense had a good day yesterday. Portis over 100 yards rushing, Brunell with over 300 yards passing, they controlled the ball and they STILL lost. Penalties and giving back points kill you.
Denver didn't out play the Redskins, the Redskins under played themselves.
Of course, it was still better than the Ravens game although that was a pitiful excuse for a game...
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Ak...
We'd have to pick what we're basing our perspectives on, yes? I'm basing my #'s and what I think would happen based on Pat last year and Mark last year and now.
Patrick threw for about 7% more completions, averaging about 3 more yards per attempt, than Mark did last year and this.
Turnovers: Last year Pat threw 10 td's and 11 ints, fumbled 6 times, lost 1 in 7 games. If you take out the Giant game when Pat came in for an injured Mark in game 2, he had 8 int's in the 7 games he started. Mark threw 6 picks to go with 7 td's in 9 starts and also fumbled 6 times losing 3.
This year, Ramsey has a pick and a fumble, Mark 2 picks, 1 fumble.
As far as scrambling, I'll certainly give you that, Mark is much more mobile.
Brunnel was 3-6 last year, 3-1 this year. Pat was 3-4 last year, call Chicago what you will.
There is NO analysis that shows Mark Brunnel as the better quarterback last year and only skin of our teeth wins this year to show him as the guy.
Gibbs wanted Mark to have a shot with the new offense. He's getting it and from here it's a simple matter of wins and loses because there is no statistical improvement. But, again, Mark Brunnel will not get any more accurate, quicker of foot or faster to recognize and react. What he is doing now is all he can do save, I hope, for a few games where he does better.
In the mean time, the guy with the potential sits. Or maybe not the potential. Again, we don't know and there is no claim that can be backed up with other than opinion that Mark is better, not even a little.
Sorry. We're below average at QB. We just are.
AK-74me said:
We'd have to pick what we're basing our perspectives on, yes? I'm basing my #'s and what I think would happen based on Pat last year and Mark last year and now.
Patrick threw for about 7% more completions, averaging about 3 more yards per attempt, than Mark did last year and this.
Turnovers: Last year Pat threw 10 td's and 11 ints, fumbled 6 times, lost 1 in 7 games. If you take out the Giant game when Pat came in for an injured Mark in game 2, he had 8 int's in the 7 games he started. Mark threw 6 picks to go with 7 td's in 9 starts and also fumbled 6 times losing 3.
This year, Ramsey has a pick and a fumble, Mark 2 picks, 1 fumble.
As far as scrambling, I'll certainly give you that, Mark is much more mobile.
Brunnel was 3-6 last year, 3-1 this year. Pat was 3-4 last year, call Chicago what you will.
There is NO analysis that shows Mark Brunnel as the better quarterback last year and only skin of our teeth wins this year to show him as the guy.
Gibbs wanted Mark to have a shot with the new offense. He's getting it and from here it's a simple matter of wins and loses because there is no statistical improvement. But, again, Mark Brunnel will not get any more accurate, quicker of foot or faster to recognize and react. What he is doing now is all he can do save, I hope, for a few games where he does better.
In the mean time, the guy with the potential sits. Or maybe not the potential. Again, we don't know and there is no claim that can be backed up with other than opinion that Mark is better, not even a little.
Sorry. We're below average at QB. We just are.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Uncle Charlie...
That is a fact. As a barometer we should beat the Broncos.
That is a fact. As a barometer we should beat the Broncos.
BuddyLee
Football addict
otter said:
Brunnel and Ramsey stats over the years...Ramsey http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302216 Notice the overall total rating.
Brunnel http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1032 There is a difference. It always seemed like Ramsey would cough up that ball just at the right time.
Brunnel was given the chance and he's making it work, for now.
I mainly have beef with Novak, the kicking and punting squad sucked Jupiters balls last night!
Larry Gude
Strung Out
otter...
You're right; the only thing that would shut me up is the thing that can't happen; That Gibbs let my boy play the first 2-4 games.
3-1 is 3-1 but no, I am not enjoying it. I'm not seeing any patterns or team identity emerge, nothing to hang my hat on.
We run the ball but we don't blow people off the line on 3rd and 2. We throw some short pass. Betts is hurt. Cooley is not enough a part of the mix, though yesterday Mark seemed to be finding him more.
Shawn Taylor has not emerged as a game changer. One or two monster hits a game is nice but force a fumble, make a pick, seperate somebody from the ball on a deep cross on 3rd down
We don't have an Antonio Pirece making numerous big plays a game. We got taken for two huge runs. The LONGEST all last year was 26 yards.
I mean I'll take 3-1 but it's just an uneasy feeling and it all settles on Brunnel. He simply isn't going to get any better and he's playing like last year which means the defense is hanging on by a thread every minute and can make NO mistakes because the offense can't manage 35 or 28 or even 21 points.
I'm seeing Patten and Moss brought closer and closer in on their routes to ease the stress on the pocket and that is, like Coles last year, not where they can hurt the other team.
There's good news in there. Pattens call was kinda ticky tacky. Denver got three and outed so often they started thinking that's what they were supposed to do. Portis is one step from breaking it every few plays.
I'd feel alot better if Mark made more of the easy throws and was over 60% completion wise. Two or three more easy five yarders a game keeps a drive or two going. I'd also like to see a bit more of a pound it attitude on short yardage.
You're right; the only thing that would shut me up is the thing that can't happen; That Gibbs let my boy play the first 2-4 games.
3-1 is 3-1 but no, I am not enjoying it. I'm not seeing any patterns or team identity emerge, nothing to hang my hat on.
We run the ball but we don't blow people off the line on 3rd and 2. We throw some short pass. Betts is hurt. Cooley is not enough a part of the mix, though yesterday Mark seemed to be finding him more.
Shawn Taylor has not emerged as a game changer. One or two monster hits a game is nice but force a fumble, make a pick, seperate somebody from the ball on a deep cross on 3rd down
We don't have an Antonio Pirece making numerous big plays a game. We got taken for two huge runs. The LONGEST all last year was 26 yards.
I mean I'll take 3-1 but it's just an uneasy feeling and it all settles on Brunnel. He simply isn't going to get any better and he's playing like last year which means the defense is hanging on by a thread every minute and can make NO mistakes because the offense can't manage 35 or 28 or even 21 points.
I'm seeing Patten and Moss brought closer and closer in on their routes to ease the stress on the pocket and that is, like Coles last year, not where they can hurt the other team.
There's good news in there. Pattens call was kinda ticky tacky. Denver got three and outed so often they started thinking that's what they were supposed to do. Portis is one step from breaking it every few plays.
I'd feel alot better if Mark made more of the easy throws and was over 60% completion wise. Two or three more easy five yarders a game keeps a drive or two going. I'd also like to see a bit more of a pound it attitude on short yardage.
Otter
Nothing to see here
I was right, you do need more cowbell.. 
Thats strange that we see it so differently. I see better ball by the offense(tho they aren't scoring like they should be). The defense overall is playing better, IMO. Special team coverage is better this year, kicking is down. You may be a better student of the game than I and picking up things I don't see or even know to look for. I don't know, but we sure seem to be seeing different things out there.
I did look at the stats from last year earlier today. I was wholely against them even keeping Brunnel at the start of preseason, but, again IMO, he is a different qb than he was last year. His arm looks stronger, he's moving better, his presence on the field is way above last year. I think the few completion percentage pts difference is mainly because Brunnel throws the ball away whereas Ramsey will eat it or try to finesse a ball into coverage. I'd be much happier with 17 for 30, 0 ints, 0 sacks than 17 for 25, 1 int, 4 sacks totaling 40 yds.
The main thing I have always looked for in a qb is his presence on the field and the way the team reacts to him. I'll say again that Brunnel is the guy right now if we want to win. As much as I wanted Ramsey to succeed and regardless of his stats, he looked tenative and lost at times, thru all of the pre-season. Gibbs definitely did him wrong in the way he replaced him this year, but I'm thinking he pretty much saw the same thing and was looking for a chance to make the change.
Thats strange that we see it so differently. I see better ball by the offense(tho they aren't scoring like they should be). The defense overall is playing better, IMO. Special team coverage is better this year, kicking is down. You may be a better student of the game than I and picking up things I don't see or even know to look for. I don't know, but we sure seem to be seeing different things out there.
I did look at the stats from last year earlier today. I was wholely against them even keeping Brunnel at the start of preseason, but, again IMO, he is a different qb than he was last year. His arm looks stronger, he's moving better, his presence on the field is way above last year. I think the few completion percentage pts difference is mainly because Brunnel throws the ball away whereas Ramsey will eat it or try to finesse a ball into coverage. I'd be much happier with 17 for 30, 0 ints, 0 sacks than 17 for 25, 1 int, 4 sacks totaling 40 yds.
The main thing I have always looked for in a qb is his presence on the field and the way the team reacts to him. I'll say again that Brunnel is the guy right now if we want to win. As much as I wanted Ramsey to succeed and regardless of his stats, he looked tenative and lost at times, thru all of the pre-season. Gibbs definitely did him wrong in the way he replaced him this year, but I'm thinking he pretty much saw the same thing and was looking for a chance to make the change.
AK-74me
"Typical White Person"
I totally agree but you seem to think that Ramsey is our future and we should be letting him play because the experience of today is gonna pay off big time in the future, I disagree. I see Ramsey as holding on to an NFL career by a thread through the years sort of like Jeff George, Ramsey is never going to make us or any one else in the NFL a winner. He just isn't.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
And you know what?
We'd know that for sure right now had Gibbs let him play the first 1, 2 or even four games.
He's better than Brunnel in every measurable way from wins to yards per attempt and was freaking playing well when he got hurt AND he at least had the potential to get better.
As I pointed out, year four was the year Brunnel went from Ramsey numbers to all pro. Year four is a key year for most pro qb's.
In the mean time, we got Brunnel and Ramsey with his coaches overt stamp of disapproval and a rookie.
As to Pats future, we'll see, in time, but it won't be in burgundy and gold because Gibbs agrees with you and that's the only vote that counts.
I think you're both wrong and when I see the mediocre play of Brunnel I just want to vent about it. Mark needs to make 60-65% of his passes in this offense and he needs to get us in the end zone.
I can't WAIT to be wrong about Mark. What I see now is agonizing.
We'd know that for sure right now had Gibbs let him play the first 1, 2 or even four games.
He's better than Brunnel in every measurable way from wins to yards per attempt and was freaking playing well when he got hurt AND he at least had the potential to get better.
As I pointed out, year four was the year Brunnel went from Ramsey numbers to all pro. Year four is a key year for most pro qb's.
In the mean time, we got Brunnel and Ramsey with his coaches overt stamp of disapproval and a rookie.
As to Pats future, we'll see, in time, but it won't be in burgundy and gold because Gibbs agrees with you and that's the only vote that counts.
I think you're both wrong and when I see the mediocre play of Brunnel I just want to vent about it. Mark needs to make 60-65% of his passes in this offense and he needs to get us in the end zone.
I can't WAIT to be wrong about Mark. What I see now is agonizing.
Oz
You're all F'in Mad...
Larry Gude said:
Yeah, Ramsey was playing just about as well as he could when he fumbled and threw that INT... How long did he play in that game? Nevermind - I think you walk onto the field at the beginning of the game with a 100 QB Rating. His rating is 49.4 for the season, so that about answers that question...
ALSO :
Brunell - 53.8 82.6 84.0 91.2 Those are Yr1/2/3/4 QB Ratings.
Ramsey- 71.8 75.8 74.8 49.4
Please note that Brunell only played in 2 games during his first season.
Ramsey should aspire to be the QB that Brunell still is. OH! Already, Brunell has rushed for 66 yards. Ramsey had 19 last year in 9 games. Ramsey may have looked great at Tulane playing against guys who are now selling used cars somewhere. Welcome to the NFL, year 2005!
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