Gay Advocates seek apology

[terbear1225]

I just didn't understand why YOU couldn't look up the total number of persons in the military.

Google is available to all, use it.

if it was that much of a problem for you to look it up, why bother.

if it wasn't, why keep griping about it.

 

[hvp05]

msing:

Well... she does fight like a girl.

 

[Roughidle]

I've never served in the military, so I have no direct perspective on this. Would you be more specific about the issues, both with gender mixing and with gays?

I can imagine relationships between female and male sailors hampering fighting effectiveness, especially if one of the partners is a superior officer. But the issue with gay service members seems less clear to me. Are some servicemen concerned that a gay comrade would look at them with lust, or worse, sexually harass them? Or would the gay serviceman himself be targeted for verbal or physical harassment?

What are the issues from your perspective? Other than combat situations, what would make gender and gay issues more severe in the military than in a civilian workplace?

You almost answered your own question:
First and foremost, on the issue of sexual or romantic(if anyone needs it churched up some) relationships: They are forbidden among service men and women in the same "Chain of Command" which would include all members serving aboard the same ship. The rest of the morality side of my argument would fill a thread in itself.

 

[Tonio]

Roughidle, thanks for your response. I see your point about the chain of command.

The rest of the morality side of my argument would fill a thread in itself.

In another thread, I wrote that I don't understand why some people see homosexuality as immoral. To me, homosexuality is like vegetarianism, a personal thing that poses no inherent harm to anyone else.

 

[bohman]

I just didn't understand why YOU couldn't look up the total number of persons in the military.

Google is available to all, use it.

Again, I apologize for attempting to stimulate conversation on a public board. I threw a question up into the air; you caught it and ran with it. For what it's worth, I appreciate the info.

Back on topic, my own personal opinion is that one of the only obvious truths here is that sexual behavior is what matters, not sexual orientation. That holds true in any workplace, and especially in the military. Straight people shouldn't harass or in any way be sexually involved with people in their command, as already mentioned. As long as the same rules apply to gays, I say let them have the same chance to serve well that anyone else has. They cause any problems, discharge 'em - quickly.

Can't be any worse than a judge giving somebody a chance to serve by saying, "join up or go to jail". :shrug:

 

[Tonio]

Back on topic, my own personal opinion is that one of the only obvious truths here is that sexual behavior is what matters, not sexual orientation. That holds true in any workplace, and especially in the military. Straight people shouldn't harass or in any way be sexually involved with people in their command, as already mentioned. As long as the same rules apply to gays, I say let them have the same chance to serve well that anyone else has. They cause any problems, discharge 'em - quickly.

Well said.

 

[itsbob]

...and there was a day that our soldiers didn't want to be in a fox hole with a black man. Then it was women in the military that was the issue, then women in combat.

Do you see a trend here?

Women in combat is still an issue, there are still many jobs out there that women are not allowed to do.. a woman can't be part of a tank crew, an infantry platoon, Cavalry Squadron.

As early as Desert Storm, the Marines pulled out ALL of the females from their deploying units, and replaced them with males, or left the billet open when the unit deployed.

One of the reasons (and just one) was the thought of how a male soldier or marine would react to say a wounded female. A male counterpart they may leave for later, finish the fight then tend to the wounded, a female would they stop to take care of her, endangering many more of them? Isn't that the way good men and boys are raised, and the way they are programmed to react?

There are many other reasons too, but that's just the top of the iceberg.

As far as the gays, I think it would be for their own preservation.. an infantryman is not the most PC person in the world.. and after taking showers with his platoon for a month finds out one of them is gay, how do you expect them to react? How can the Army or Marines protect them, and how many assets would that take away from the mission.

Everyone may want to make it acceptable, and everyone may think the military intolerant but there are many reasons for it.

The gay community want everyone to be tolerant of their lifestyle, or even take it a step further and give them extra protections, their own laws, yet they can't be tolerant of someone that was raised with different morals of their own.

 

[FromTexas]

I didn't read the whole tread so forgive me if this has been covered...

Forget about don't ask, don't tell. The makeup of the military pretty much would make coming out in the military one of the worst places to be openly gay in. I think they will be more miserable in sharing than they would have been in keeping their mouth shut. Just MHO.

 

[Tonio]

after taking showers with his platoon for a month finds out one of them is gay, how do you expect them to react?

I understand that reaction in one sense. I hated the group showers in school gym and in the college dorm. I'm a very private person in real life, and I felt vulnerable in the group showers. Not from worrying that any of the other guys might be gay, but simply because of the lack of privacy.

But I don't understand it in another sense. I can't imagine any gay man giving me as much as a second glance, in the shower or out of the shower. I don't consider myself ugly, just average-looking, and I'm not very social. To my knowledge, no woman has ever definitely flirted with me. (In another thread, I talked about an incident where I wondered if the woman was flirting, but there's a very good possibility that she was simply drunk or high.)

Dumb question - does it matter whether the platoon actually finds out that a fellow solider is gay, or the platoon assumes that the soldier is gay because of the belief that "if you don't have a brewski in your hand you might as well be wearing a dress"?

 

[Tonio]

Alcohol is not a big a part of military life as it once was. Matter of fact, you go on any military base now, and you'll find the base clubs empty or close to empty. The services frown on what we used to call fun.

I wasn't referring to alcohol specifically, simply quoting the movie "Heathers." That leads to my next point...

You'll notice the guy that never has a girlfriend, or always brings his "roommate" to functions. You don't have to see them making out in the parking lot to connect the dots. THEN you are going to have problems.

That's a reasonable assumption. But I'm not talking about those situations. I'm talking about situations where the soldier's heterosexuality is called into question simply because he doesn't like stereotypically "male" pursuits like football or NASCAR.

 

[Roughidle]

The problem with gays in the military isn't in dealing with the finding out or suspicion of a few individuals. It's in the dealing with an openly gay populace and how to segregate or intregate them in a way that wouldn't harm mission readiness.

 

[Tonio]

It's in the dealing with an openly gay populace and how to segregate or intregate them in a way that wouldn't harm mission readiness.

Valid point. Is the issue about straights simply feeling comfortable around gays? Or are conflicts between straights and gays in the military environment inevitable, no matter what the attitudes of either side?

 

[Roughidle]

Valid point. Is the issue about straights simply feeling comfortable around gays? Or are conflicts between straights and gays in the military environment inevitable, no matter what the attitudes of either side?

I think the conflict exists in both civilian and military environments from both sides. The main difference in the military is you have to, not only work together but also live together, often in very small quarters. This is a major source of conflict between straight men and women serving openly together and would only be compounded with the intregation of openly gay service members. A large problem to be sure and one for which I have no answer.

 

[papercutz]

Entilted to a moral system

Since when is it wrong to have your own moral and or belief system. Pace has every right to believe homosexuality is wrong. Why should he apoligize? His only offense was speaking his mind concerning the militarys policy. But last I remember, we as Americans have the right to believe and hold a moral system.