Genesis 13 Left & Right

[seekeroftruth]

Genesis 13:8 So Abram said to Lot, “Let’s not have any quarreling between you and me, or between your herders and mine, for we are close relatives. 9 Is not the whole land before you? Let’s part company. If you go to the left, I’ll go to the right; if you go to the right, I’ll go to the left.”​

Studylight.org explains these verses.

Since Abram was the eldest, and God gave all the land to Abram (not to Lot), it was pure generosity on Abrams part that caused him to make this offer to Lot.

Abram was able to fight when the occasion demanded it. He did not yield to Lot out of weakness, but out of love and trust in God. A few acres of grazing land didnt seem worth fighting for to a man with an eternal perspective.

God was glorified when Paul, out of love, waived his right to be supported by the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:14-18). God was glorified when Jesus, out of love, waived his right to an existence that knew no human suffering or trial by experience (Philippians 2:5-11).

Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. (Philippians 2:4)​

Right or left, Abram knew he could trust God. He did it because he learned God would provide for his needs, and he did not have to worry about being too generous. Abram knew whatever Lot chose God would make sure Abram prospered.

In Egypt, Abram thought he had to take his fate into his own hands. He had to look out for himself. Now, he was wiser and was willing to let God look out for his interests. Right or left, it didn't matter to Abram, because God would be there.

Because he trusted in God, Abram did not have to be obsessed with his own rights and neither do we. The only right we truly have is the right to go to hell. Everything else is the free gift of God and has nothing to do with our concept of rights.​

 

[ProximaCentauri]

The only right we truly have is the right to go to hell. Everything else is the free gift of God and has nothing to do with our concept of rights.

An extremist view, no different than any other religious extremist view. One should expect hell if you don't accept the 'free gift' of the Christian God and that is 'truly' your only right.

On the other hand, if Allah is the one true creator of the universe and you do not accept him, it's the Christians who will be burning in hell and 1.7 Billion Muslims will be enjoying heaven. And what of the 1.2 Billion people practicing Hinduism? Or those who practice Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism to name a few.

Since all these faiths can't be right, one should expect damnation purely as a matter of probability.

But just realize, while all these competing theologies can't be right...they can certainly all be wrong.

 

[seekeroftruth]

An extremist view, no different than any other religious extremist view. One should expect hell if you don't accept the 'free gift' of the Christian God and that is 'truly' your only right.

On the other hand, if Allah is the one true creator of the universe and you do not accept him, it's the Christians who will be burning in hell and 1.7 Billion Muslims will be enjoying heaven. And what of the 1.2 Billion people practicing Hinduism? Or those who practice Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism to name a few.

Since all these faiths can't be right, one should expect damnation purely as a matter of probability.

But just realize, while all these competing theologies can't be right...they can certainly all be wrong.

I have to stand for something or I'll fall for anything. That's called faith.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I have to stand for something or I'll fall for anything. That's called faith.

On the contrary, if you stand for 'faith', then you stand for gullibility and willful ignorance. And you will fall for anything.

'Faith' requires no critical thinking, no objective evidence, and no connection with reality. Instead, 'faith' requires gullibility to believe in the nonsensical, the mythical, and the supernatural.

'Faith' requires giving up one's critical faculties to believe in absurdities that often influence one's actions to the detriment of society. Yes, faith results in some 'good' actions as well, but not nearly enough to offset the harm it does in the world.

The bible is chocked full of fairytales, myths, and lies. 'Seekers of truth' will not find it there.

 

[Radiant1]

The bible is chocked full of fairytales, myths, and lies. 'Seekers of truth' will not find it there.

It seems to me that a real seeker of truth doesn't discount something out of hand simply because it's associated with religion. Truth can be found anywhere. At the very least there's a history and sociology lesson to be learned from the bible. The majority of atheists who have no chip on their shoulder are able to do this without shame.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

It seems to me that a real seeker of truth doesn't discount something out of hand simply because it's associated with religion. Truth can be found anywhere. At the very least there's a history and sociology lesson to be learned from the bible. The majority of atheists who have no chip on their shoulder are able to do this without shame.

Yes, well you already know I am not a member of the majority. As for history and sociology, I seriously doubt whether the Bible (or the Qu'ran) has anything of value to offer modern day society.

But, I'm quite certain that what they both do in fact offer is a divisive, irrational, and poisonous ideology that ends up fukking up the world for everybody.

Of course, after I finish my drink I just might soften up my views just a bit.

 

[Radiant1]

Yes, well you already know I am not a member of the majority. As for history and sociology, I seriously doubt whether the Bible (or the Qu'ran) has anything of value to offer modern day society.

But, I'm quite certain that what they both do in fact offer is a divisive, irrational, and poisonous ideology that ends up fukking up the world for everybody.

Of course, after I finish my drink I just might soften up my views just a bit.

Yeah, I know, you have a chip on your shoulder. I usually don't encourage anyone to drink, and you know I love me some PC, but if it makes you act like less of a condescending dill hole toward seekeroftruth, then bottoms up!

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Yeah, I know, you have a chip on your shoulder. I usually don't encourage anyone to drink, and you know I love me some PC, but if it makes you act like less of a condescending dill hole toward seekeroftruth, then bottoms up!

Well the edge is dissipating, and I recognize the harsh condescending tone after rereading it, so guilty as charged. I generally leave seeker to her own devices, but it was her comment "the only right we truly have is the right to go to hell" - that I felt compelled to poop on, because it's so typical of the old school evangelicalism that I despise.

I'd rather engage in a civil intellectual discussion in the religious thread once in a while but there are so few here capable of doing that. You're one of the few.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Yes, well you already know I am not a member of the majority. As for history and sociology, I seriously doubt whether the Bible (or the Qu'ran) has anything of value to offer modern day society.

But, I'm quite certain that what they both do in fact offer is a divisive, irrational, and poisonous ideology that ends up fukking up the world for everybody.

Of course, after I finish my drink I just might soften up my views just a bit.

So what leads you to a daily Bible verse?

 

[ProximaCentauri]

So what leads you to a daily Bible verse?

Nothing.

I do frequent this forum however to take part in the debate(s) regarding religion, the god question, morality, theists' values vs agnostic/atheist values, etc.

I'm sure you realize that in a public forum all OPs are open to comment and debate. It's not my intent to take issue with you personally, but to offer a different point of view.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Nothing.

I do frequent this forum however to take part in the debate(s) regarding religion, the god question, morality, theists' values vs agnostic/atheist values, etc.

I'm sure you realize that in a public forum all OPs are open to comment and debate. It's not my intent to take issue with you personally, but to offer a different point of view.

Oh I do realize that comments and debate are the purpose of most forums. I just didn't think a daily Bible verse would be valuable reading for those who think the Bible is hogwash....

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Oh I do realize that comments and debate are the purpose of most forums. I just didn't think a daily Bible verse would be valuable reading for those who think the Bible is hogwash....

Yes, that would be a correct assumption, it's not "valuable reading" at this point in my life, obviously, from either a spiritual standpoint or from a general knowledge standpoint.

I'm a former Christian as most Atheists are, just one of many millions of former Christians, who having studied the Bible critically, have found it to be, sadly, "hogwash".

That's not to say that I don't find some of the bible commentary and apologetics you post, uh, for lack of a better word...interesting.

 

[seekeroftruth]

Yes, that would be a correct assumption, it's not "valuable reading" at this point in my life, obviously, from either a spiritual standpoint or from a general knowledge standpoint.

I'm a former Christian as most Atheists are, just one of many millions of former Christians, who having studied the Bible critically, have found it to be, sadly, "hogwash".

That's not to say that I don't find some of the bible commentary and apologetics you post, uh, for lack of a better word...interesting.

Well stick with us.... maybe you'll find that it's anything but hogwash...

 

[ProximaCentauri]

Well stick with us.... maybe you'll find that it's anything but hogwash...

Yes, one never knows. Some interesting developments will be coming up soon in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I'll be curious to see your take on them...

 

[Bird Dog]

Well stick with us.... maybe you'll find that it's anything but hogwash...

It is interesting that he comes on here........
I think he is looking for something.........

Most extreme atheists are......

 

[Radiant1]

It is interesting that he comes on here........
I think he is looking for something.........

Most extreme atheists are......

The same reason a Christian would partake in an atheist forum, proselytizing.



I will say though PC, although I can't quite put my finger on it, there are times that you come across as struggling even though I'm sure you would never conscientiously admit it.

 

[ProximaCentauri]

I will say though PC, although I can't quite put my finger on it, there are times that you come across as struggling even though I'm sure you would never conscientiously admit it.

"This most excellent canopy the air, look you, this brave o'er hanging firmament, this majestical roof, fretted with golden fire: why, it appeareth no other thing to me, than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours. 'What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals! And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me; no, nor Woman neither; though by your smiling you seem to say so."

 

[ProximaCentauri]

The same reason a Christian would partake in an atheist forum, proselytizing.

Yup, I'm a 'Born Again' Atheist.

 

[This_person]

I do frequent this forum however to take part in the debate(s) regarding religion, the god question, morality, theists' values vs agnostic/atheist values, etc.

I keep waiting for an answer to this... If you'd like to debate, then let's do it:

It's unknown what the evolution of Western culture would have looked like, devoid of the church's influence. Additionally, the opportunity for advancement of knowledge was squandered during the dark ages in large part due to the societal stranglehold of the church.

These two sentences are diametrically opposed in their assertion. Either we can't know or opportunity was squandered. Both assertions cannot be true.

Which one is it?

 

[Radiant1]

Yup, I'm a 'Born Again' Atheist.

Yep, as fervent and zealous as a born again fundamentalist evangelical. Heh.

You will mature in your atheism in due time and then you won't care so much about what others do or do not believe.