Great New "Stand Their Ground" Law in Florida

Cletus_Vandam

New Member
Only in a State other than Maryland

I mentioned Florida looking at this change in their laws in a post of mine last week (the one about the girl shooting her ex while he was trying the kill her current boyfriend).

It's great to mention the progress of other level-minded States when it comes to being able to protect yourself; However, until we all get the current idiots who govern Maryland to relax the current CCW requirements here in Maryland, all we can do is dream about how nice it must be to be able to protect you and your family from would be criminals....
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Ken King said:
See that's the problem and I guess why they investigate things or everyone would just have a crystal ball like you. Now Carnack the Magnificent, since it's your duck, can you tell me if the duck was moving towards the woman or away when she popped off the fatal round? Was the duck trying to flee when it observed the hunter coming at it with the gun?
Ken, I think you are on the wrong side of this argument. The guy should not have been there. Period. He violated the law. If she felt threatened and had no exit behind her (that would be my story), the dude is dead meat.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
2ndAmendment said:
Ken, I think you are on the wrong side of this argument. The guy should not have been there. Period. He violated the law. If she felt threatened and had no exit behind her (that would be my story), the dude is dead meat.
Nope, not on the wrong side, I see the need for an investigation each and every time a life is taken with a firearm. Because others see it as a done deal based on very little information does not make it one.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Ken King said:
Nope, not on the wrong side, I see the need for an investigation each and every time a life is taken with a firearm. Because others see it as a done deal based on very little information does not make it one.
I don't disagree with an investigation. It just seemed to me from your posts that you were saying that the person did not have a right to defend themselves.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Ken King said:
See that's the problem and I guess why they investigate things or everyone would just have a crystal ball like you. Now Carnack the Magnificent, since it's your duck, can you tell me if the duck was moving towards the woman or away when she popped off the fatal round? Was the duck trying to flee when it observed the hunter coming at it with the gun?
I don't think it matters what he was doing at that point, but if I read the article right he was beating her boyfrined about the head with a pipe. Dumazz brought a pipe to a gunfight..
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
agree with the investigation when there is a loss of life, but think the scales have to be in her favor.. Him just showing up should be a "threat"
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Ken King said:
See that's the problem and I guess why they investigate things or everyone would just have a crystal ball like you. Now Carnack the Magnificent, since it's your duck, can you tell me if the duck was moving towards the woman or away when she popped off the fatal round? Was the duck trying to flee when it observed the hunter coming at it with the gun?

Of course Carnac The Magnificient can answer your question. The answer is neither. He was beating the boyfriend when he got his stuff blown away.

But seriously, I look at this as a "duck" case because of the simple fact that the dead guy was in the house at all, after being told to stay away by the courts. He had no business being there, and no right to be there. If a person is ordered by the court to stay away from a place, and willingly violates that order, what other laws might he/she be willing to disobey? I think that the trend evidence shows pretty well that people in emotional disputes who are willing to violate the law by breaking no trespass, exparte, or similar orders, are usually willing to adopt an "in for penny, in for a pound" mentality and escalate their law breaking.

In my mind, if I had a no-trespass/exparte order against someone and they broke into my home and showed violent intent, I would pull the trigger on them without question. If that guy wanted to stay alive, all he had to do was follow the law, and I don't think it's right to second guess the motives of the woman who blasted him. If she had shot him out in a public place that would be different, but in the home he was barred from and while attacking her new boyfriend? Duck City!
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
You guys are reading too much into what someone writes. I am all for a person having the right and ability to protect themselves and their property. I think if you have a protective order against someone you should be able to protect yourself from them. Having said that, we all know that Maryland has their own slant on what that means and right or wrong that is what we go by.

As to the incident we don't know if the assault was still going on when the lady returned with the weapon and shot the attacker. We don't know anything other then a person broke in, someone got beat up (allegedly with a pipe), and someone is now pushing up daisies from being shot.

If the fatal shot was to the back of the head and the spray pattern was such that the assailant was heading away from the shooter or the assault victim as if fleeing the location Maryland could charge the woman. Do I think this is right? No, but that is how the state sees it and I suspect that they will investigate it accordingly.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Ken King said:
If the fatal shot was to the back of the head and the spray pattern was such that the assailant was heading away from the shooter or the assault victim as if fleeing the location Maryland could charge the woman. Do I think this is right? No, but that is how the state sees it and I suspect that they will investigate it accordingly.

What you're saying Ken is a perfect example of the problem. It should make no difference what direction the guy was heading in when he got shot. None. Zero. Nada. The fact is that the guy was inside of a house that he had been ordered to stay away from. He was in the process of committing a violent act. Let's say that he was momentarily turned away from the woman when she shot, and the splatter pattern showed that she shot him in the back of the head. Does that mean that he was in the act of leaving? No, but in your example it could be grounds for her to be charged with murder.

I think that all the state should have to look at is the fact that this guy had a violent background and no regard for the law. He didn't break into the house to say "hi", he broke in to do some sort of illegal act, and his rights should end at that time. There's no one who would be involved in any investigation who would do anything but second guess what she should have done. That's easy to do when you're pouring over evidence, but that's different from being confronted with a direct threat. It's cases like this that led to the new law we have down here. Too bad Maryland can't get past that same legal "grey" area.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Bruzilla said:
What you're saying Ken is a perfect example of the problem. It should make no difference what direction the guy was heading in when he got shot. None. Zero. Nada. The fact is that the guy was inside of a house that he had been ordered to stay away from. He was in the process of committing a violent act. Let's say that he was momentarily turned away from the woman when she shot, and the splatter pattern showed that she shot him in the back of the head. Does that mean that he was in the act of leaving? No, but in your example it could be grounds for her to be charged with murder.

I think that all the state should have to look at is the fact that this guy had a violent background and no regard for the law. He didn't break into the house to say "hi", he broke in to do some sort of illegal act, and his rights should end at that time. There's no one who would be involved in any investigation who would do anything but second guess what she should have done. That's easy to do when you're pouring over evidence, but that's different from being confronted with a direct threat. It's cases like this that led to the new law we have down here. Too bad Maryland can't get past that same legal "grey" area.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Hell, I think we as citizens should be able to protect ourselves, but Maryland's legislative types don't think that way. They think that we should run and hide when in fear for our lives and until those laws get written for reality we are stuck with it.
 

Ponytail

New Member
I saw that this officially became law last night on CNN.

They spoke of a man that was just convicted of 2nd degree mureder (If I remember right) for shooting a neighborhood man that he thought was coming at him with a gun.

THe home owner heard noises and voices outside and opened the front door to his home with a gun, where he saw several individuals in his front yard and one moving quickly in the dark towards the door with what the home owner thought was a gun. The home owner shot and killed the guy who turned out to be unarmed, and was engaged in nothing more than the old "ring the doorbell and run game".

Had this happened today, the home owner would walk and never be charged.

All the home owner had to do was shut the door. Had he taken another second before pulling th trigger, he may have even recognized his own neighbor.

I like what this law is trying to do. But I don't believe that is nearly as restrictive as it should be. In Florida as of today, you can walk down the street with a registered gun, shoot someone, and if there were no witnesses, all you have to do is say that you felt threatened, and you walk. And that's BS.

The law is written as is in an attempt to deter crime. Well, laws keep innocent folks innocent as well as "protecting" the innocent and to a lesser degree, the criminal. This law opens it up for both sides. All it is going to do is make more work for police, with fewer results. You're going to have more folks carrying guns "for self protection", putting more inexperienced folks with guns on the street. You're going to see a rise in gun thefts, which will lead to more stolen guns on the street being used for crime.

Right now, obtaining a gun in Florida is SUPER easy. You are not required to have any safety classes, defense classes or other to own a gun that you plan to use as self defense, something that I firmly believe in.

I've heard the State Reps and senators opinions on this issue. I'd like to hear what the police officers in that state have to say about it. In fact, I'm going to make a call. I happen to know a few. Stay tuned.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Ponytail said:
I saw that this officially became law last night on CNN.

They spoke of a man that was just convicted of 2nd degree mureder (If I remember right) for shooting a neighborhood man that he thought was coming at him with a gun.

THe home owner heard noises and voices outside and opened the front door to his home with a gun, where he saw several individuals in his front yard and one moving quickly in the dark towards the door with what the home owner thought was a gun. The home owner shot and killed the guy who turned out to be unarmed, and was engaged in nothing more than the old "ring the doorbell and run game".

Had this happened today, the home owner would walk and never be charged.

All the home owner had to do was shut the door. Had he taken another second before pulling th trigger, he may have even recognized his own neighbor.

I like what this law is trying to do. But I don't believe that is nearly as restrictive as it should be. In Florida as of today, you can walk down the street with a registered gun, shoot someone, and if there were no witnesses, all you have to do is say that you felt threatened, and you walk. And that's BS.

The law is written as is in an attempt to deter crime. Well, laws keep innocent folks innocent as well as "protecting" the innocent and to a lesser degree, the criminal. This law opens it up for both sides. All it is going to do is make more work for police, with fewer results. You're going to have more folks carrying guns "for self protection", putting more inexperienced folks with guns on the street. You're going to see a rise in gun thefts, which will lead to more stolen guns on the street being used for crime.

Right now, obtaining a gun in Florida is SUPER easy. You are not required to have any safety classes, defense classes or other to own a gun that you plan to use as self defense, something that I firmly believe in.

I've heard the State Reps and senators opinions on this issue. I'd like to hear what the police officers in that state have to say about it. In fact, I'm going to make a call. I happen to know a few. Stay tuned.
Hello. Gun ownership is a RIGHT! Just because it has been unconstitutionally withheld or restricted in some states and localities does not make it less so.

The police have been able to shoot people for years and get away with it because they felt threatened. Is there anything that makes a policeman better than anyone else? I've been to the indoor range used by the Charles County officers. They, for the most part, can't shoot for diddly. They certainly shoot worse than most ordinary shooters I've been with including me and my wife. And according to the U.S. Supreme Court, they are not required to protect you if they feel it will put their life in jeopardy.

Wake up. The cops don't protect you. They put up yellow tape and clean up the mess, and sometime, only sometimes find the offender. If the cops don't, can't, and don't have to protect you, then you have to protect yourself.
 
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Ponytail

New Member
2ndAmendment said:
Hello. Gun ownership is a RIGHT! Just because it has been unconstitutionally withheld or restricted in some states and localities does not make it less so.

The police have been able to shoot people for years and get away with it because they felt threatened. Is there anything that makes a policeman better than anyone else? I've been to the indoor range used by the Charles County officers. They, for the most part, can't shoot for diddly. They certainly shoot worse than most ordinary shooters I've been with including me and my wife. And according to the U.S. Supreme Court, they are not required to protect you if they feel it will put their life in jeopardy.

Wake up. The cops don't protect you. They put up yellow tape and clean up the mess, and sometime, only sometimes find the offender. If the cops don't, can't, and don't have to protect you, then you have to protect yourself.

I have no problem with TRAINED or experienced folks protecting themselves. But if you are not trained to keep calm and recognize whether someone is running to your door to ring the doorbell vs pointing a gun, or trained to keep your own gun from being used against you, what good is it going to do?

What is stopping me from shooting XYZ just because he pissed me off, and saying that "I felt threatened". No witnesses, I walk.

I just got off the phone with my brother (Florida resident with a few friends in the law enforcement world, and one important fact that I failed to include in my opinion is that in order to carry, you do need a permit. In MOST cases, law abiding citizens of good character are the ones that will get a permit.

Requirement of a carry permit still does not stop Joe Schmoe gun owner from being startled by and shooting his unarmed neighbor, or even a lost stranger without threat of repercussion if he was wrong.

So I digress, slightly. I really think that it's going to open the door for more shootings of innocent people.

I'd feel more confident if it was required for folks who choose to carry, to take a defensive shooting class and learn to recognize a dangerous situation from a nervous one, or a gun from an umbrella in the dark.

My brothers statements: "A little over a few months ago, I had a short conversation at a Gun store with a Police officer and the store clerk (Retired Po-Po). I asked them both about their feelings on civilians and the Right to carry. This is what the police officer said: "Get It!"..." IF you are a law abiding citizen and of good character, we want you to have it." That conversation sold me. I got it. I have not spoken to anyone about the new bill. However, I do like the bill. As of right now, my knowledge of it is limited. I did not even know it passed yet. That being said, the way I understand it, it is like the carry permit; it only allows you to use deadly force if you feel your life, or someone else's life is in danger. The only thing the bill does is take away the the necessity to prove you had no way to escape the situation prior the use of deadly force. This does not mean that if you see an opportunity to get away, you can't, you must kill, or be killed. But by, Running, you take the small chance of getting a blade or lead in your back. (hence the slogan "kill or be killed.) Conversely, Like the carry permit, if you shoot someone, while THEY are attempting to run away (with your car, pocket book even if it matches your heels, wallet, etc.), you will go to prison. "

I'm anxious to see the gun crimes numbers after a year of this law being released. Maybe my opinion will change. But one innocent "oops" is one too many. The law as written last week, didn't stop it, but at least then there was the threat of repercussion if you were the one saying "oops", more pressure on the innocent to stay innocent.
 
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Larry Gude

Strung Out
Let's see here...

But one innocent "oops" is one too many.

How many of these;

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

...are 'too' many?

Please, wake me when the headlines read: "Florida once again reports no violent crimes for the past year but continues to have a problem with neighbors ringing doorbells and shooting each other. It's happened twice in the last two years. Developing..."

In the mean time shall we focus on the summary:

In the year 2000 Florida had an estimated population of 15,982,378 which ranked the state 4th in population. For that year the State of Florida had a total Crime Index of 5,694.7 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 2nd highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime Florida had a reported incident rate of 812.0 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 1st highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
They call 'em...

...'Cotton Tops' because all you see is a little tuft of white hair barely sticking above the steering wheel.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Ponytail said:
I like what this law is trying to do. But I don't believe that is nearly as restrictive as it should be. In Florida as of today, you can walk down the street with a registered gun, shoot someone, and if there were no witnesses, all you have to do is say that you felt threatened, and you walk. And that's BS.

Ponytail is 100% correct on this. I can take my Beretta Model 96 off the gun rack, take it with me into the street, gundown my neighbor, tell the police that I thought he was threatening me - and explain why I felt that way, and if they buy my story I'm 100% off the hook. Of course for years I could have run him over in the street with my car and claimed I never saw him. For years I could have invited him over to my house, put some window cleaner in his drink, and killed him, claiming I thought that the window cleaner was some exotic drink, and once again... if the police bought my story I'm off the hook. So really, when you're talking about absurd hypothetical situations, the same issue keeps coming up... why would I ever do that? I remember when I was selling very real-looking pellet guns at the Charlotte Hall farmers market one time, and I heard the following statements at least a dozen times (and that's no exageration), "I bet a cop would shoot you if you ever pointed that at him!", or "you could get shot by a cop if you ever pointed one of those at him!" My replies were always the same - "Why would you ever point one of these at a cop?"

If I may digress for a second, when Florida passed the law allowing the keeping of a loaded handgun in your car, there were all kinds of fears that there would be gun battles on the highway. Yes, there was nothing stopping people from doing that except for good old common sense and the fact that 99.9% of the people who legally carry guns have no desire to use them if they don't have to. Then, when the law was changed to make concealed carry permits simple to get, the same fears were racheted up again and with the same result... amazingly... it turned out that decent, law-abiding, people posed no threat. Is that incredible or what! Yes, sadly there are cases where people are accidentally shot for one reason or another, and those are sad situations. But for every accidental shooting there are what... about 1,000, 5,000, accidental deaths on the highways? I can safely say that in Florida your risk of dying from an automobile is about at least 100,000 times greater than being accidentally shot.

Now we have this law, and we're hearing the same BS from the same people. Yes, I could go out and shoot my neighbor, or his kids, or his wife, but like most people I would need a motive to do it. I remember a great line from Law & Order where the DA said "you can't convince a jury that water is wet without a motive", and usually when there is a motive, it leads to a conviction of a crime. Like I said, I have no reason to shoot (or drive over or poison my neighbor) and if I did accidentally off him I think the police would see the incident for what it was... an accident. Now, if we had been fighting, drinking, banging each others' wives, kicking each others' dogs, etc., I would expect the police to take a harder look at that case and if there was any criminal intent I would be prosecuted.

This law poses a new problem for the bad guys, not the public at large. The criminals have no way of telling who the wolves are, and who the sheep are, and now the leashes are off the wolves. I don't see any danger of people running about gunning down their neighbors or strangers for no reason, but I do see criminals having another reason to go straight as no Florida resident now has to worry about legally defending themselves anytime, anywhere. :patriot:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Continuing on Bruzs....

...very fine post:

There is this assumption that goes along with the doomsday predictions of housewives gunning each other down in the WaWa parking lot. It goes like this:

Now that it is legal, EVERYONE will carry a firearm. People who'd never even held a gun will now walk around like Rambo, armed to the teeth, just spoiling for someone to piss them off or look at them funny, just so they can mow them down.

Blood will run in the streets! Normally sane people who used to go around innocently minding their own business will, overnight, become ANGRY WHITE MEN looking to burn off some steam and get even with society.

So.

The more you analyze the negative response to citizens actually having the right to keep and bare arms and the more you analyze the anti-FIX social security responses the more you find a common theme;

Citizen as imbecile.

Too stupid to manage their own money.

Too stupid to make decisions about their own safety.

And yet, converesly, these very same idiots are suppossed to, in all situations and in all circumstances, be able to say anything they want, sleep with whomever or whatever they want, get abortions, use drugs, indulge evey whim, passion and flight of fancy, all in the name of individual freedom and rights.

Modern liberalisms creed: If it makes you weaker and/or dependent, we're all for it. If it makes you stronger and/or independent, we're opposed.
 
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