Help a Small Business - Order to Close Immediately!

WheezyCarl

Active Member
If BidenKam become Prez, the answer is yes. Since you joined, I always wanted to know how you liked New York.
I <3 NY. I cannot wait to return for a long overdue visit. Centrally located, just a hop, skip and jump from all the beauty that this majestic state has to offer. Cooperstown? Just over the hill. Finger Lakes? Same. Adirondack Park? Worth the extra half hour drive. Fly fishing? Pick a nearby stream. Kayaking? Abundance of fresh water lakes. FOOD???? Mangia!!! But the state taxes. 8.5%...Yikes.
 

Louise

Well-Known Member
I <3 NY. I cannot wait to return for a long overdue visit. Centrally located, just a hop, skip and jump from all the beauty that this majestic state has to offer. Cooperstown? Just over the hill. Finger Lakes? Same. Adirondack Park? Worth the extra half hour drive. Fly fishing? Pick a nearby stream. Kayaking? Abundance of fresh water lakes. FOOD???? Mangia!!! But the state taxes. 8.5%...Yikes.

Sounds wonderful, except for the taxes part. If BidenKam wins the election, we all will be “swamped” with taxes.

And, I cannot wait to go back to the state of my birth which is Louisiana; which has a lot in common with NY minus the hills and all. We have to do what we have to do in life. I am guessing you relocated for fam or biz.
 
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GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
At what point do decent men draw the line and say, "No, I will not follow that order"?


Tim Pool calls them ' Oathbreakers ' they know damn well they should not be obeying bad laws / regulations

Echimann Hogan would just send down the Staties
 

dgates80

Land of the lost
OK, time to weigh in here. I'm in Korea so I have a different perspective than ya'll USA people. Been here a year. Mask use is essentially 100% here in South Korea, I see it daily. Maybe it's an Asian "rule-followers" thing, or it could be cultural in that they seriously hide emotional displays and wearing a mask so one cannot see the face facilitates that, I don't know. Bottom line, they seriously wear the Face Diaper. Like, all the time.

Guess what? South Korea is seeing a spike in 'Rona, like pretty much everywhere. What does that tell me? Masks? Yeah, right. Ineffective at preventing this disease in oneself and also others. I suspect that is not a 100% thing, it probably does cut down transmission to a degree. However, it ain't all that either.

But WTF? Shutting down business over it? That's freaking crazy. Let people make their own choices. You want a masked retail experience, well, chose a business that does that, otherwise STFU.

But! That is not what REALLY bothers me. The "snitch" thing has got to just freaking stop. If you want to "turn somebody in" you better expect that your complaint will be made public: no redactions. I hate to bring up late 1930's Germany, but this practice was one of the key enablers that led to the rise of, you guessed it, Nazi Germany and everything that came along with it. Do we, as a country, REALLY want to go there?

So, apparently a specific business makes honest reasonable attempts to comply with a questionably reasoned set of rules in response to faceless complaints, only to be determined without due process or recourse that the business was somehow "not in compliance". Which America DOES that? One would hope that the arbiters of the rules enforcement would have to not only "shut 'em down" but also be obligated to specify what criteria need be met to escape the shutdown order. In other words, some form of due process as opposed to an endless set of mandates that are murky and ill defined in their inception. Break a rule? Apply a remedy? Oh, too bad, we changed the rule. You are still closed, too bad, so sad.

Then there is the disease itself. Taking the average of all the noise, the infection rate is roughly comparable to an order of magnitude to the ordinary seasonal flu. There is a corresponding similar rate of serious adverse health effects, to include death. The deaths are sad, but it's the one thing that everyone eventually accomplishes, so far as I know. So, we're worried that more people than what is the norm will die? Apparently yes. Yet the truth is that a microscopically additional risk of death or serious illness is what is actually happening. Thus, it's isn't the dying that is in play here, sorry.

Hospital capacity and utilization, well, THERE is a measurable metric. What's the truth? America ramped up capacity on a wartime scale, hell there were MASH units in downtown Nebraska. They went largely unused from what I have read. Because you know, we flattened the curve. With masks.

Could we see a health care system overwhelmed? Sure, simply because it's built to handle a fairly well documented general illness rate and not a whole lot extra. The extra demand that was predicted but the so called experts simply failed to materialize, just did not happen. But, lets say it did just for the sake of discussion. Would our care givers manage to find a way to deal with it? Well you bet they would by a method used and extensively studied and modeled. It's called "triage". It's brutal: let the people that can't be saved die, work on the ones that have a shot at survival first, and kick the whiney babies with runny noses to the curb. It must suck to be a doctor that has to make decisions like that, but that is why they study stuff like that and are front line medical ethics practitioners. Pay them the big bucks, they deserve it.

The abuse of power by petty "Health Department" officials without establishing a clear avenue of review and redress, i.e., due process, must be stopped by any means necessary. They obtain their power from us by our explicit permission, they have no power in and of themselves. They like the rules we don't like? The ones in power in a representative democracy on occasion forget that we, as a function of governing ourselves, actually write the rules.
 

Bann

Doris Day meets Lady Gaga
PREMO Member
The abuse of power by petty "Health Department" officials without establishing a clear avenue of review and redress, i.e., due process, must be stopped by any means necessary. They obtain their power from us by our explicit permission, they have no power in and of themselves. They like the rules we don't like? The ones in power in a representative democracy on occasion forget that we, as a function of governing ourselves, actually write the rules.

Exactly. That's the crux of this whole thing with @TPD, I feel. It's one thing to accuse him of not complying - but they have not given him his due process. He kept getting visits from the "goons" from the Health Dept who said it was above their pay grade to talk to him, and then Brewster wasn't available for him to talk to. Probably because she was pushing her ORDER through and wanted to make an issue out of another (small) business and get her 15 minutes of fame.

They can all piss off.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I hate to bring up late 1930's Germany, but this practice was one of the key enablers that led to the rise of, you guessed it, Nazi Germany and everything that came along with it. Do we, as a country, REALLY want to go there?


at the collapse of East Germany the it was estimated 60% of the population was snitching to the STASI
 

stgislander

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
The whole idea of shutting him down on Saturday morning knowing full well that the Health Dept is closed for two days so the owner has to stew on the fact that he's losing two days worth of sales for non-compliance is what really sticks with me.
 

dgates80

Land of the lost
The whole idea of shutting him down on Saturday morning knowing full well that the Health Dept is closed for two days so the owner has to stew on the fact that he's losing two days worth of sales for non-compliance is what really sticks with me.
You make a good point. The timing was awfully convenient, timed such as to cause a maximum possible economic impact. Only two days? Likely more like a week, in the most heavily traffic time of the year. Merry freakin' Christmas.

Taking the inspection report at face value, which is obviously not valid, how long does the health department take to type up and issue a three or so page document? A "bad" inspection on the 4th but takes until the 12th to serve the closure notice? Eight days? No health department rep going along to explain or supervise the closure service?

Let's take a different Health Department context. They conduct an inspection of a restaurant for routine food safety, not COVID. The inspector finds rats. Would it be cool for the eatery to stay open for another week before getting closed down for the rats?

The timeline I heard on the video was Dec. 1st an inspection was done and found lacking, a conclusion that is subject to dispute. An order to comply was issued. Another follow up inspection on the 4th, which noted things as being "bad" which were clearly untrue, the signage for example. Thence without further contact the closure order shows up served on the 12th by two Sheriff deputy, one of whom was a senior guy that had been clearly carefully briefed on what to say and do. The closure order was excessively restrictive also... owner, law enforcement, and health department ONLY, no family, no employees. Jeez, I thought the population being protected by the closure was the CUSTOMERS, not employees from each other.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
OK, time to weigh in here. I'm in Korea so I have a different perspective than ya'll USA people. Been here a year. Mask use is essentially 100% here in South Korea, I see it daily. Maybe it's an Asian "rule-followers" thing, or it could be cultural in that they seriously hide emotional displays and wearing a mask so one cannot see the face facilitates that, I don't know. Bottom line, they seriously wear the Face Diaper. Like, all the time.

Guess what? South Korea is seeing a spike in 'Rona, like pretty much everywhere. What does that tell me? Masks? Yeah, right. Ineffective at preventing this disease in oneself and also others. I suspect that is not a 100% thing, it probably does cut down transmission to a degree. However, it ain't all that either.

But WTF? Shutting down business over it? That's freaking crazy. Let people make their own choices. You want a masked retail experience, well, chose a business that does that, otherwise STFU.

But! That is not what REALLY bothers me. The "snitch" thing has got to just freaking stop. If you want to "turn somebody in" you better expect that your complaint will be made public: no redactions. I hate to bring up late 1930's Germany, but this practice was one of the key enablers that led to the rise of, you guessed it, Nazi Germany and everything that came along with it. Do we, as a country, REALLY want to go there?

So, apparently a specific business makes honest reasonable attempts to comply with a questionably reasoned set of rules in response to faceless complaints, only to be determined without due process or recourse that the business was somehow "not in compliance". Which America DOES that? One would hope that the arbiters of the rules enforcement would have to not only "shut 'em down" but also be obligated to specify what criteria need be met to escape the shutdown order. In other words, some form of due process as opposed to an endless set of mandates that are murky and ill defined in their inception. Break a rule? Apply a remedy? Oh, too bad, we changed the rule. You are still closed, too bad, so sad.

Then there is the disease itself. Taking the average of all the noise, the infection rate is roughly comparable to an order of magnitude to the ordinary seasonal flu. There is a corresponding similar rate of serious adverse health effects, to include death. The deaths are sad, but it's the one thing that everyone eventually accomplishes, so far as I know. So, we're worried that more people than what is the norm will die? Apparently yes. Yet the truth is that a microscopically additional risk of death or serious illness is what is actually happening. Thus, it's isn't the dying that is in play here, sorry.

Hospital capacity and utilization, well, THERE is a measurable metric. What's the truth? America ramped up capacity on a wartime scale, hell there were MASH units in downtown Nebraska. They went largely unused from what I have read. Because you know, we flattened the curve. With masks.

Could we see a health care system overwhelmed? Sure, simply because it's built to handle a fairly well documented general illness rate and not a whole lot extra. The extra demand that was predicted but the so called experts simply failed to materialize, just did not happen. But, lets say it did just for the sake of discussion. Would our care givers manage to find a way to deal with it? Well you bet they would by a method used and extensively studied and modeled. It's called "triage". It's brutal: let the people that can't be saved die, work on the ones that have a shot at survival first, and kick the whiney babies with runny noses to the curb. It must suck to be a doctor that has to make decisions like that, but that is why they study stuff like that and are front line medical ethics practitioners. Pay them the big bucks, they deserve it.

The abuse of power by petty "Health Department" officials without establishing a clear avenue of review and redress, i.e., due process, must be stopped by any means necessary. They obtain their power from us by our explicit permission, they have no power in and of themselves. They like the rules we don't like? The ones in power in a representative democracy on occasion forget that we, as a function of governing ourselves, actually write the rules.

Like x1000 👏

As to this:

Do we, as a country, REALLY want to go there?

There is a segment of our society - and they are almost exclusively Democrat - who do want to go there. As my former brother-in-law used to say, power unexercised is power wasted, and Democrats are not good stewards of power. Not that the Republicans are so hot, but they have us to keep them in check whereas the Democrat rabble are all fascists at heart.



I have lost count of how many tweets I've seen along those lines.
 

dgates80

Land of the lost
The whole idea of shutting him down on Saturday morning knowing full well that the Health Dept is closed for two days so the owner has to stew on the fact that he's losing two days worth of sales for non-compliance is what really sticks with me.
"Hello, the health department is not taking in person meetings for subjects such as business closure orders. Please leave a message at the beep and we will return your call. Sometime. Maybe. If we feel like it. But expect a minimum of one week for your call to be returned. The purpose of the return call will be to set an appointment for a teleconference with a health department official because we are all teleworking. The next available appointment is on January 22, 2021. Thank you and have a great day."
 

dgates80

Land of the lost
Like x1000 👏

As to this:



There is a segment of our society - and they are almost exclusively Democrat - who do want to go there. As my former brother-in-law used to say, power unexercised is power wasted, and Democrats are not good stewards of power. Not that the Republicans are so hot, but they have us to keep them in check whereas the Democrat rabble are all fascists at heart.



I have lost count of how many tweets I've seen along those lines.

I added "MASH units in downtown Nebraska" just for you, Vrai! ;)
 

GregV814

Well-Known Member
Hey good news guys!!!! I just called the County Health Department and spoke to a lady in "Environmental Services". I explained that many stores in California seemed to not be in compliance with CoVid regulations. She wanted my name, phone and address....I told her I wanted to remain anonymous like the callers at the Ridge hardware store...She said "Oh no, thats been corrected now"... I asked her to clarify and tell me what was changed..She said she didnt know, but "its been changed"....

So, there you go
 

stgislander

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
"Hello, the health department is not taking in person meetings for subjects such as business closure orders. Please leave a message at the beep and we will return your call. Sometime. Maybe. If we feel like it. But expect a minimum of one week for your call to be returned. The purpose of the return call will be to set an appointment for a teleconference with a health department official because we are all teleworking. The next available appointment is on January 22, 2021. Thank you and have a great day."
153822
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
I sent them an email. Think I'll get a reply? :sshrug:

o: smchd.healthdept@maryland.gov <smchd.healthdept@maryland.gov>
Subject: Ridge Store Closure Questions

I have some questions that I would like answered:
  1. Why, specifically, was the Ridge hardware store ordered closed?
  2. How many Ridge store employees have tested positive for the virus?
  3. How many residents of the Ridge and Scotland zip code area have tested positive?
  4. How many store customers have tested positive?
  5. How many store employees found themselves abruptly unemployed just before Christmas?
  6. How many area residents will now be forced to travel north to shop in congested/crowded stores located in areas with high COVID infection rates?
  7. How are actions like these a good use of our state and county employees and local law enforcement resources?
  8. Does Dr. Webster have petty personal vendettas ongoing with other local business owners, or is she focusing her authoritarian overreach only on Mr. Tennyson?
 
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