Hillary's messy history

[rraley]

Are Americans really stupid or did the powers that be "stupify" them? I mean honestly perhaps if candidates and the people behind them stepped up to the plate and talked about what matters and not push some Swift Boat Vets for Truth or Moveon.org bs line, maybe Americans would be smarter.

Plus all this awful, classless mud-slinging has led to reduced participation in American politics.

 

[vraiblonde]

Are Americans really stupid or did the powers that be "stupify" them?

A combination of both - we're stupid and the powers want to keep us that way. Politicians don't like it when you look too close at them, so they say, "Hey, want some Cheetos?" And we say, "Mmmmm...Cheetos!" This is not Democrat or Republican, but across the board.

I mean honestly perhaps if candidates and the people behind them stepped up to the plate and talked about what matters and not push some Swift Boat Vets for Truth or Moveon.org bs line, maybe Americans would be smarter.

No - what would happen is they would change channels or read something other than the boring newspapers. Televised debates are a perfect example: Check the ratings and see how many Americans watch the debate as opposed to whatever sitcom is on at the same time. I'll bet if they televised the debates on PBS or MPT instead of pre-empting regular programming, NOBODY would watch.

Plus all this awful, classless mud-slinging has led to reduced participation in American politics.

Here's your data: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html

I dont think it's the mud-slinging - I think it's the complexity of the issues and the sheer plethora of information to digest. Back in the 50s, it was easy: US= good, Russkies=bad. It's not that simple anymore , which makes it harder to pay attention and be knowledgeable.

 

[vraiblonde]

Larry says to tell you:

When Hillary Clinton, a non-elected individual, was GIVEN the job of reshaping our nation's healthcare system shortly after the start of Bill's first term, she closed the doors to the media and thus the public, and specifically excluded physicians from her little elitist confab on how to dictate to the unwashed masses what THEIR healthcare system should look like.

When this happened it was absolutely jaw-dropping to anyone who cared, including me. It was as though you were being told a fairy tale. But sure enough, this is the way it was. And that's what derailed Hillary-care, not any VRWC or unfair mudslinging, but the simple fact is that her hubris got enough people to pay attention before it was too late for us to have a national healthcare system designed by Hillary and her pals, and not ONE regular M.D.

This is no story, it's a fact. And this is of a pattern and of a kind with the mudslinging stories you hear about her.

So if there be mudslinging, yet it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck and acts like a duck through all the mud, chances are real good it's still a duck. Or in this case, lack thereof. Quack quack.

This follows the Billy Dale pattern, this follows the Craig Livingstone 1,000 FBI files pattern, this follows the allegations (whether proven or not) of Whitewater fundraising and Chinese military money.

Mudslinging is nothing new in American politics. Maybe you could have a little more confidence in the inate American ability to decipher these things correctly.

After all, Honest Abe was called a gorilla - and he. like Clinton, became President with a minority of the vote.

 

[Agee]

Larry says to tell you:

When Hillary Clinton, a non-elected individual, was GIVEN the job of reshaping our nation's healthcare system shortly after the start of Bill's first term, she closed the doors to the media and thus the public, and specifically excluded physicians from her little elitist confab on how to dictate to the unwashed masses what THEIR healthcare system should look like.

When this happened it was absolutely jaw-dropping to anyone who cared, including me. It was as though you were being told a fairy tale. But sure enough, this is the way it was. And that's what derailed Hillary-care, not any VRWC or unfair mudslinging, but the simple fact is that her hubris got enough people to pay attention before it was too late for us to have a national healthcare system designed by Hillary and her pals, and not ONE regular M.D.

This is no story, it's a fact. And this is of a pattern and of a kind with the mudslinging stories you hear about her.

So if there be mudslinging, yet it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck and acts like a duck through all the mud, chances are real good it's still a duck. Or in this case, lack thereof. Quack quack.

This follows the Billy Dale pattern, this follows the Craig Livingstone 1,000 FBI files pattern, this follows the allegations (whether proven or not) of Whitewater fundraising and Chinese military money.

Mudslinging is nothing new in American politics. Maybe you could have a little more confidence in the inate American ability to decipher these things correctly.

After all, Honest Abe was called a gorilla - and he. like Clinton, became President with a minority of the vote.

"Honest Abe" governed in a completely different era, and political dynamic.

Mudslinging in American politics is cowardly, and childish. Stand by your beliefs, not the perceived weaknesses of your opponent!

 

[ylexot]

No - what would happen is they would change channels or read something other than the boring newspapers. Televised debates are a perfect example: Check the ratings and see how many Americans watch the debate as opposed to whatever sitcom is on at the same time. I'll bet if they televised the debates on PBS or MPT instead of pre-empting regular programming, NOBODY would watch.

Hmmm, sounds familiar...http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?t=53206

Me...I turned on the TV to see the announcement. I was a bit dissapointed to find that the news already knew who it was going to be (I want an investigation into who leaked the name! ), but it was funny that it turned out to not be Edith Whatshername that everyone thought it was going to be earlier in the day.

 

[Bustem' Down]

It's all the same crap. Find me a clean politician. Mr. Smith goes to Washington was a movie, people like him don't exist in politics.

 

[Tonio]

What do you think of this guy's opinion? He's an avowed liberal. He did a column last year that satirized Hillary-worshippers. I'll post the link when I find it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/07/12/DI2005071201131.html

Gene Weingarten: I do not particularly like (Hillary) because I mistrust her ambition and suspect she is without real principles. I suspect she stands for nothing more than her own advancement, which explains her tolerance of Bill. There are certain actions she has taken -- accepting a stock tip that was tantamount to insider trading and political payoff, her handling of the Travel Office thing -- that suggests she is someone I would not like.

However, I am told by people who know that her staff genuinely likes her, which is a pretty important thing for establishing character. So the jury is out.

I could vote for her under any number of circumstances, however. I generally agree with her politics.

I find it hard to forgive anyone who voted to continue the sad Terri Schiavo saga. It was a disgusting, indefensible act of political expediency. Of course, every single sitting senator DID vote for it. So. You know.

 

[SamSpade]

Nevermind the rest of ther flood from Billy Dale to the Rose law firm records to Web Hubbel to Lippo and on and on.

Just put your seatbelt on if she runs. It'll make Kerry's aversion to the truth about his Viet Nam service seem like simple battle fatigue.

In defense - albeit briefly - of rr - I tend to shudder at some of the more outrageous crap that gets bandied about regarding the Clintons' I remember the "Clinton Body Count" some years back, only to find a large portion of the entire list to be utterly discredited and easily disproven. I mean, I wanted to believe it was true, told people about it - and had to retract when simple facts - like the actual names of people misspelled or wrong - made me realize it was a hatchet job, and a BAD one at that.

I've never been at ease with what happened to Vince Foster - I've never been able to figure how a man can kill himself over what apparently was no scandal whatsoever - or that a man can commit suicide by driving off into the woods where his body wasn't extremely likely to be found. I'm not a profiler, but people commit suicides at HOME, unless they jump off a bridge or something - they do want their bodies to be FOUND. There's just no way I can believe his death was suicide. On the other hand, IF there was a smoking gun with respect to the Clintons, Ken Starr would certainly have found it; instead he exonerates them of wrongdoing. And I understand that he was a childhood friend of one of the Clintons - I don't think even Stalin could kill a friend from childhood. The worst I'm able to believe is that someone killed him, and the Clintons covered up the mess.

You know the old journalism saw - "get it first, but first, get it *RIGHT*"? That's how I feel about some of the more lurid stuff about the Clintons. Nearly everyone of my relatives believes some of the most ridiculous stuff about Bush - many of them are into the "Bush PLANNED 9/11 for his dirty war" story - AND they believe the "No plane hit the Pentagon" story, hook, line and sinker.

Frankly, it's embarassing. These relatives are educated professionals with advanced degrees - they're smart enough to know better, but utterly blinded by partisanship.

I *NEVER* - NEVER - want to be like that. Which means that if lurid crap is out there about someone I don't like, I want to be DAMNED sure it's right before I even pretend to acknowledge it.

Because I've seen it before.

Does anyone remember, right after Clinton was elected, how nasty stuff was, in the press, the radio, the right? And the refrain came back - "where did all this come from? why are they so mean?". Even Dan Quayle responded to this DURING the debates - this ridiculous assertion that the Democrats were NICE to the Republicans prior to that campaign. Quayle quipped - "has **ANYONE** read my press for the past FOUR YEARS??". Yeah. Riiiiiight. 12 years of hearing how Reagan starved little children, would end the world, of how Bush Sr. was a wimp - yeah, you got it. The Dems were just sweet 'lil angels. I remember thinking damn, they have short memories.

Shoe's on the other foot. The ONE thing I don't want to forget is how many lurid stories have come out against Kerry, and Hillary and Bill - and had to go to Snopes and find out it was all a pile o' crap.

I've always detested Bill. I didn't like him when he was behind in the polls in '92, and he has never failed to bring politics down to the lowest level I could stomach - only to go lower. Even liberal friends I've had, from OUTSIDE the U.S. have told me, they felt he was an embarassment - even though they AGREED with his political positions.

 

[Larry Gude]

That is the most naive thing...

"Honest Abe" governed in a completely different era, and political dynamic.

Mudslinging in American politics is cowardly, and childish. Stand by your beliefs, not the perceived weaknesses of your opponent!

...I've read in quite some time.

 

[Bustem' Down]

What do you think of this guy's opinion? He's an avowed liberal. He did a column last year that satirized Hillary-worshippers. I'll post the link when I find it.

I don't like her either, I just don't see why it's a suprise to find a dishonest politician. On either side.

 

[Larry Gude]

That's pretty easy...

It's all the same crap. Find me a clean politician. Mr. Smith goes to Washington was a movie, people like him don't exist in politics.

W for one. Cheney for two. Paul Sarbanes would be three. Nancy Pelosi doesn't seem to drag much behind her. There's plenty of them. The Clintons were an aberation.

 

[Bustem' Down]

W for one. Cheney for two. Paul Sarbanes would be three. Nancy Pelosi doesn't seem to drag much behind her. There's plenty of them. The Clintons were an aberation.

Yeah, that I believe. And before you go off about liberals, I voted for him. I just don't believe he's clean.

 

[ylexot]

It's all the same crap. Find me a clean politician. Mr. Smith goes to Washington was a movie, people like him don't exist in politics.

Define "clean".

 

[Bustem' Down]

Define "clean".

Everyone has skeletons, everyone has thier own agenda's.

 

[Larry Gude]

Hess...

How many of those incidents & scandals can you recount from memory?

ALL of them, or damn near.

The 90's was surreal. Our national political life imploded in 8 short years. Blowjob was on the evening news. Cheating on Wall Street became the way to fortune. "Is" became debatable. If you lost money when the savings and loan collapsed, it made stealing it in the first place OK. We normalized relations with one of the few remaining communist nations; Viet Nam, done by a man who publicly admits he did/did not dodge the draft for that war.

All manner of otherwise outrageous things were common news, day after day after day.

If nothing else, the Clintons were not boring and I think more people remember than you may fear.

 

[Larry Gude]

Voted for who?

Yeah, that I believe. And before you go off about liberals, I voted for him. I just don't believe he's clean.

And what is not clean about Dick Cheney? W? Sarbanes? Pelosi?

 

[Larry Gude]

I would think it is a given...

Everyone has skeletons, everyone has thier own agenda's.

...that a national level politician has an agenda; rising as far as they can.

As far as skeletons, you honestly believe that what the Clintons have done in the past, time after time, is even remotely comparable to the worst thing you ever heard about Joe Leiberman? Chuck Schumer?

 

[Bustem' Down]

And what is not clean about Dick Cheney? W? Sarbanes? Pelosi?

Give me 24 hours and I could find all sorts of things. But....you would just say that it's liberal mudslinging, so I'm not going to even bother. The biggest beef I have with the Bush admin is lying. All they need to do now is come out and say we made a mistake, there were no WMD's and most people would be ok, but he just ignores the whole issue completly. You could have told me we were going over there to take all thier oil, I wouldn't have gave a damn.

 

[Bustem' Down]

...that a national level politician has an agenda; rising as far as they can.

As far as skeletons, you honestly believe that what the Clintons have done in the past, time after time, is even remotely comparable to the worst thing you ever heard about Joe Leiberman? Chuck Schumer?

It's all right wing slander.

 

[ylexot]

Everyone has skeletons, everyone has thier own agenda's.

Yeah, including you and everyone else. To me, clean would be that the skeletons may be embarrasing but they are acceptable. If the allegation of creating charges against someone so that they get fired and a friend is put in their place is true...that's unacceptable to me.