history to a whole generation who never heard any of this

[2ndAmendment]

...
Lastly, what's the difference between "melting pot" and "multiculturalism" aside from some letters? They are the same damn thing, with the exception that a "melting pot" is a passive event that occurs over time as cultures adapt elements of one another, and "multiculturalism" is a proactive effort to make people more aware of one another's cultures. The end result of both is the same. I've yet to have one kid come home from school saying 'Dad... we have to live like Muslims" or "Dad, we have to live like Mexicans." I've also failed to receive a summons in the mail for failure to live like an Eskimo or Irish Sheep Herder, so to the best of my knowledge there's no effort underway... aside from you apparent paranoia, to force you to live any differently than you choose to.

In a "melding pot" meaning a blending pot, not "melting pot", the cultures merge into one changing the "flavor" of the whole but loosing the individual identity. Put a little wine in beef stew; the stew doesn't taste like wine, but it also does not taste the same as it did before the wine was added.

"Multiculturalism" maintains the individual "flavor" of the culture without blending. It is like having beef stew with wine served on the side; each is still distinct.

 

[2ndAmendment]

So how come YOU don't speak only German?

Answer - SOMEONE in your family thought it was important to learn the language spoken here. Am I right?

What DOES get my nose bent slightly out of joint is this same level of arrogance that people would point at Americans if they went to Germany or China or Russia and demanded that THEY LEARN ENGLISH. You know what they'd say - you're in our country now, round-eye. You do things our way. And I would agree with them.

My folks know a handful of families here, from Latin America - and they insist that they are *still* Costa Rican/Guatemalan/Panamanian - and they will not celebrate "American" holidays, and forbid their children to do so. Further, they do not consider themselves "American". They're still natives of their country, and openly voice their dislike of this country - of how it is inferior to their own. All this of course, while enjoying the benefits of living here, such as owning their own home and raising their children and sending them to good schools.

I hate this - I mean, really, *hate* this - the immigrants from years past went through hell to get here LEGALLY - and over time, adapted and became part of American culture. They blended into it, added to it, enriched it - but they are most definitely *Americans*. This is their new nation. I know this; just like most of us, my ancestors came here from Ireland and England. THIS place was their home, their adopted home.

When I go to Russia, it will be nice to find some things written in English - in fact, in some of the more touristy sections, I imagine it will be, because it's good business. But I don't EXPECT that if I buy something there, the instruction will be in five languages. It will be in Russian - PERIOD. Imagine how insulted they would be to know I intended to spend my entire life there, but had no intention of learning how to speak to them - but arrogant enough to expect THEM to learn how to speak to me!

In the words of Larry, preach on.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I've been to pretty much every major country in the World, and the one thing that's common to them all is that everywhere you go most signs are written in the native language and English, and every hotel has English speakers at the desk. The only place I've gone to that was an exception to that rule was Puerto Rico... an American territory... where if you don't speak Spanish you're going to have a tought time.

The reason Puerto Ricans won't speak English is they don't believe they are a U.S. territory; Puerto Rico is their country. The truth of the situation does not phase them. I know this because I had a Puerto Rican girl friend once. When we were talking about the U.S. and Puerto Rico being part of the U.S., she said it was not. I asked her how she got to the U.S. without a passport them. Then she said Puerto Rican should not be a U.S. territory and Puerto Ricans should throw the U.S. out. I asked her if she was for the violent overthrow of the U.S. She said yes. End of relationship. I told her to pack her stuff and put her on a plane back to Puerto Rico the next day.

Bru, you and Larry don't get it. The illegals and the come heres that don't and won't "meld" do not have the best interest of the U.S. at heart. All too often I have heard immigrants say, "I don't like ...., Back in my country ...." If this is not their country and they don't want it to be and are not happy here, I think they should go back where they were happy.

 

[Bruzilla]

Bru, you and Larry don't get it. The illegals and the come heres that don't and won't "meld" do not have the best interest of the U.S. at heart. All too often I have heard immigrants say, "I don't like ...., Back in my country ...." If this is not their country and they don't want it to be and are not happy here, I think they should go back where they were happy.

Ummm... I'm guessing that if they had been happy in their original country they wouldn't have moved here in the first place.

I think that Larry and I do get it, as do you, but the difference is that we don't mind it like you do. I don't look at the United States as some locked-in-stone, rigid, society that should never change. I look at the United States as being a highly adaptive and ever changing society that is always changing... sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

So, you don't like immigrants coming in here and and saying "I don't like this so I'm not going to change!" Well, at what point in American history would you like to freeze our society? Should we do things the way that they were done in the 1700s or 1800s, when we could shoot or lynch people we didn't like? Imagine your Little Havana cleaning woman hanging from a tree in your front yard... what stronger message could you possibly send to others like her to smart up and learn English? How about the early 1900s when we could force people to work as many hours we want for whatever pay we wanted? You could have your cleaning lady working 20 hours a day for .25 a day... oh, if only. I'm just kidding of course.

What makes no sense to me is that people like you are boohooing about the decline of American society/culture, but the society/culture you are so trying to save is abhorent to people just like you in past generations. Think about all the things you do today that someone from the 1920s, or 1870s, or 1950s would find abhorent. Does your wife work? Does your kid get to pick their own spouse? Do they date before the age of 20, or after the age of 13? You just throw out leftovers after they've been in the fridge for a week? You don't go to church four times a week? You go to a store on Sundays? Do you work on Christmas Day? All these things were unthinkable at some times, and standard at others. So, at which point in our culture do you lock things up and say "that's it, we've got it right and we're not changing!"? Personally I don't think you can.

To me freedom is freedom, and you can't force your vision of freedom on anyone else as everyone's interpretation is different, and the cultural standards are always changing.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Ummm... I'm guessing that if they had been happy in their original country they wouldn't have moved here in the first place.

I think that Larry and I do get it, as do you, but the difference is that we don't mind it like you do. I don't look at the United States as some locked-in-stone, rigid, society that should never change. I look at the United States as being a highly adaptive and ever changing society that is always changing... sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse.

So, you don't like immigrants coming in here and and saying "I don't like this so I'm not going to change!" Well, at what point in American history would you like to freeze our society? Should we do things the way that they were done in the 1700s or 1800s, when we could shoot or lynch people we didn't like? Imagine your Little Havana cleaning woman hanging from a tree in your front yard... what stronger message could you possibly send to others like her to smart up and learn English? How about the early 1900s when we could force people to work as many hours we want for whatever pay we wanted? You could have your cleaning lady working 20 hours a day for .25 a day... oh, if only. I'm just kidding of course.

What makes no sense to me is that people like you are boohooing about the decline of American society/culture, but the society/culture you are so trying to save is abhorent to people just like you in past generations. Think about all the things you do today that someone from the 1920s, or 1870s, or 1950s would find abhorent. Does your wife work? Does your kid get to pick their own spouse? Do they date before the age of 20, or after the age of 13? You just throw out leftovers after they've been in the fridge for a week? You don't go to church four times a week? You go to a store on Sundays? Do you work on Christmas Day? All these things were unthinkable at some times, and standard at others. So, at which point in our culture do you lock things up and say "that's it, we've got it right and we're not changing!"? Personally I don't think you can.

To me freedom is freedom, and you can't force your vision of freedom on anyone else as everyone's interpretation is different, and the cultural standards are always changing.

"Ummm... I'm guessing that if they had been happy in their original country they wouldn't have moved here in the first place. " You are so wrong about this. Many would be happy to go back home if they could get the same money at home. It is all about the bucks.

Again, you missed it completely.

I am not against change. I am against separatism. If a foreign national wants to be PART of the U.S., great. If they only want to come here because the pay is better, but they don't want anything other than the bennies and want no part of our culture, then they should not have come here in the first place.

 

[Spoiled]

Maybe I missed it, but there has always been some sort of sepratist feeling in the US... The Irish and Italians in big cities were a minority group (from my understanding) that did not just instantly "melt".

we are Afro-Americans, Euro-Americans, Asian-Americans

I may also be missing something; this may also be a testament to my young age, but people segregate themselves to some extent. You learn this in any basic psychology or sociology class: People want to be with what is familiar. I think part of the problem here is the fact that this country is setup to be run by the white man for the white man; therefore the white man is viewed as the typical American. Every day is white American day, white Americans have much to be proud of. If you are not a white American there maybe times when you feel you aren't part of the system. This feeling of not belonging can be shared by others; these people have things in common so they form these groups... Is the answer force them to feel uncomfortable? Force them to do things they don't want?
You force people to speak English, should you force them to attend church on Christmas/Easter?

edit: and I don't believe it has been proven that Hitler had plans to take over the continental US. The Russians are not to be credited souly for the defeat of the Germans, the Brits did not just roll over like many other Europeans had. They held out and put up a noble defense against the Nazis. The Germans expected to have troops on British soil in less than a month after the Battle for Britain had started.

 

[Bruzilla]

Again, you missed it completely.

I am not against change. I am against separatism. If a foreign national wants to be PART of the U.S., great. If they only want to come here because the pay is better, but they don't want anything other than the bennies and want no part of our culture, then they should not have come here in the first place.

Trust me... I've missed nothing. It sounds to me like you're 100% for seperatism. What you are really saying that if these imigrants don't want to be like "you", then they should go back home. It's really all about you, not them. You celebrate Christmas, so everyone should. You celebrate Thanksgiving, so everyone should. You don't celebrate Boxing Day, so no one else should. Once again, in case you missed it, if people like you had been running things in the past we would never have the great culture you so love today because they would have told immigrants that they either need to adapt or get the heck out. We would all be eating venison, corn, and potatos every night, women would be expected to sit about the house all day waving fans at themselves while slaves did the chores, and the kids working at the "It's A Small World" ride at Disney would all be unemployed (and that's even sadder than the thought of some poor kid having to sit in that ride for eight hours a day.)

So... let's say we pack up all these miscreants who don't want to live like Americans, read as "You", and we deport them back to their countries of origin. What about the folks who were born here but who for one reason or another don't want to celebrate holidays like Christmas or Thanksgiving? How about those who don't celebrate Easter? How about those Libs and atheists who don't like saying the pledge of allegience? Do we ship them back to Libsylvannia or Athiestica? What about those folks who want a pizza or some perogies instead of a slab of deer meat? And who really needs all those Chinamen acting like idiots by running around under a silk dragon during Chinese New Year... heck, that's an un-American day if ever there was one. How about those Americans who want to act outside their culture and celebrate on St. Patricks's Day or Cinco de Mayo? Do we give them the boot too? I think you would soon find yourself a lonely man if you got rid of everyone who doesn't act "American" like you... not that I would miss the Libs and the atheists.

Our culture is what it is becuase of people not wanting to conform to the America they found, and wanting to do things the way they did in their homelands. Our culture is what it is because of people having a great deal of pride in their native cultures and belief structures. Our culture is what it is because American culture has always been flexible enough to adapt to the changes brought in by those hard-nosed immigrants who wanted to inject their culture into ours. And most importantly of all, American culture is what it is because people, wherever they come from, have the freedom of choice to live like 2A or his Little Havana housekeeper. How we choose to live is all up to the individual... the way it should be.

 

[Bruzilla]

I think part of the problem here is the fact that this country is setup to be run by the white man for the white man; therefore the white man is viewed as the typical American. Every day is white American day, white Americans have much to be proud of. If you are not a white American there maybe times when you feel you aren't part of the system.

What you're talking about is perception vs reality. There was a perception that white men ran everything, which was true at one time because our culture was centered around white men. But the reality is that our country is set up so that anyone can make it here, so it was just a matter of time before our culture caught up with our country's design and women and minorities became more of the focus. Black "leaders" have made a ton of money exploiting perception rather than supporting reality, but fortunately that's changing as Blacks realize that they can better decide how to live their lives than someone like Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton can.

 

[SamSpade]

Trust me... I've missed nothing. It sounds to me like you're 100% for seperatism. What you are really saying that if these imigrants don't want to be like "you", then they should go back home. It's really all about you, not them. You celebrate Christmas, so everyone should. You celebrate Thanksgiving, so everyone should. You don't celebrate Boxing Day, so no one else should. Once again, in case you missed it, if people like you had been running things in the past we would never have the great culture you so love today because they would have told immigrants that they either need to adapt or get the heck out.

I can't speak for 2A, but it does look like you're putting words in his mouth. Maybe you should start with considering his point that he ISN'T for separatism, and try to understand - rather than deny it, and say things he's not saying.

*Language* is probably the biggest sticking point, here, and it's no small matter. It's been a big problem across the planet, and I've rarely seen it handled well. For the first couple hundred years, immigrants who come here, by and large, learn the language - just as emigrants FROM here are expected to do, elsewhere. We're fortunate that, as the pre-eminent power on the planet, many have chosen to learn our language - but it produces rage when "arrogant" Americans abroad are indignant that stuff isn't found in English. No one ever "owes" you anything - and that includes ME.

I used to have a girlfriend from another couuntry, and she was anxious to move here, because of the enormous tax burden in her own country - here, she could own a home, make more money, and pay fewer taxes. She also made it clear she would never become a citizen, never support the government, never support the USA and if called upon, refuse to help the government in any way. She occasionally asked if she could do things like refuse to pay taxes if it supported government actions she opposed. She was anti-American, to put it mildly - but had no problem taking advantage of the good things that were here.

I know others like this - they will never fight in a war, and if the United States is attacked, can't say if they won't help the attackers. They are most clearly not here to BE American - they are being, for lack of a better term - parasites. They don't just claim their homeland is better - they detest this nation.

(Actually, what I find hysterical, is that I work with 'separatists' - who are only second generation themselves. I couldn't believe it when a young Pakistani kid I work with kept saying "they should send all these other people home").

I was listening to the radio the other day and a guy was mentioning that his grandfather was a young man just prior to the first World War - during the time of the HUGE influx of immigrants (which, both as a percentage and by numbers - is still much smaller than the wave of *illegals* we're experiencing). His opinion is, there's always been resistance to waves of legal immigrants. The Irish, Italians and Poles were considered trash - but within a generation, they had integrated so fully into the American society, they were sometimes held up as "more American, than Americans". They have their culture, and their traditions - but - they're Americans, now. They may be Italian-Americans or Irish Americans - but they're Americans. When the war against Hitler came up, they signed up. THIS is their home.

When someone makes this place their honest-to-God home, I can welcome and respect that. When they come here, spit on my flag and demand handouts, I'm p!ssed at that. Because no other country would put up with that either.

 

[Bruzilla]

I can't speak for 2A, but it does look like you're putting words in his mouth. Maybe you should start with considering his point that he ISN'T for separatism, and try to understand - rather than deny it, and say things he's not saying.


I used to have a girlfriend from another couuntry, and she was anxious to move here, because of the enormous tax burden in her own country - here, she could own a home, make more money, and pay fewer taxes. She also made it clear she would never become a citizen, never support the government, never support the USA and if called upon, refuse to help the government in any way. She occasionally asked if she could do things like refuse to pay taxes if it supported government actions she opposed. She was anti-American, to put it mildly - but had no problem taking advantage of the good things that were here.

When someone makes this place their honest-to-God home, I can welcome and respect that. When they come here, spit on my flag and demand handouts, I'm p!ssed at that. Because no other country would put up with that either.

Yeah... I know what 2A is saying. I've been hearing such statements for 45 years now, just like I consider what you've said to be in the same category. You want to apply a particular standard, yours, to everyone or else they aren't American enough to be here. You criticize your girlfriend because she just wants to get her take of America and not support our country. But what about all of the millions of native-born Americans who want to do the same damn thing? I gave ten years of my life to my country, so should I consider anyone who chose to go to college, get a carreer, and raise a family in a nice civilian job less of an American? If you didn't serve your country, can I view you as you view your girlfriend, that being someone who wants the bennies of being an American but not sacrifice for them? After Pearl Harbor there were long lines at every recruiting station as men rushed to meet their obligation to their country. Where were the same lines after 9/11? Men were looked down upon during WWII if they didn't serve, how about now? Maybe there were a lot of imigrants who didn't feel a need to risk their necks for America after 9/11, but there were far more "real" Americans who apparently didn't feel the need either. So should those people be forced to go to some other country? How about people who find every possible deduction they can to avoid paying taxes? Should they get the boot also, or is that just good American common sense?

I don't know where you grew up, but in Pittsburgh there was no American utopia of a mixed, non-distinguishable, race of formerly trashed Italians, Irish, and Poles. Each group had its own little area, and most of them stuck with their native traditions and languages. It was their children, and more so their grandchildren, who acclimated - but only to a degree. Even though Catholics are a minority in the Pittsburgh area, try to find someone from the 'Burgh who didn't grow up eating fish sandwiches every Friday? You couldn't find a restauraunt in downtown that didn't serve up great fish sandwiches every Friday. This wasn't an American tradition, rather an adaptation to the local culture to adapt itself to the needs of Catholics who couldn't eat meat on Friday. the culture changed, not those coming to the area.

As for imigrants just coming here and demanding handouts, how many of them do you see? How many welfare checks are being mailed out to illegal immigrants? None. How many are being sent out to native-born American parasites... a lot. I remember driving across the bridge on RT 231 when they were redoing it and seeing a dozen or so Mexicans, likely illegals, working there on the water and in the freezing cold. Do you want to volunteer for that kind of work? Do you want to volunteer your kids? Imigrants have always done the crap work in this country, and always will. It isn't until they make their mark that they ascend to a better life and compel the next wave of immigrants to do the crap. Slaves did their time, the Chinese did their time, the Europeans did their time, and now the Mexicans are doing their time. I wonder who's turn is next?

I liken your's and 2A's views to the folks who bought nice big homes in Calvert County, and then turned around and said "ok, we're overdeveloping the area. Let's put a cap on how many houses can be built... of course we'll exempt our own properties." It's the same old "I got mine, so you can go f yourself" mentality. I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me at what point in American history we should have cut-off the melting or joining of our culture. It seems like you and 2A feel that now is a great time, and that our current culture is the best it can be and we don't need to change anything in order to accomodate someone coming on from a foreign land, but I would guess I could find views identical to that going back to the Pilgrims.

So here's my prediction for the future of the United States. All of these Hispanic immigrants will continue to speak Spanish becasue they're too old to change. Their kids will grow up being bilingual, and their kids will grow up speaking English. The national flavor of America will be a bit more Spanish, but not much as more immigrants from Canada start showing up as the Libs up there trash their economy. This is the way things have gone with every "flood" of imigrants, so I see no reason to expect things to change.

 

[SamSpade]

You're still putting words in my mouth. Maybe this should be the very last time I weigh in on this...

Yeah... I know what 2A is saying. I've been hearing such statements for 45 years now, just like I consider what you've said to be in the same category. You want to apply a particular standard, yours, to everyone or else they aren't American enough to be here.

Wrong. Wrong. NO ONE is saying that. What do they call this...projection? You read a few remarks and project the rest, based on some odious comment that someone who isn't posting, said.

What I respect is someone who WANTS to be here. They can celebrate Chinese New Year, and Cinco de Mayo and Oktoberfest - and eschew Thanksgiving and Halloween. Good for them. If you can't hear this part of what I'm saying, then read no further, because you'll just be projecting your own opinions, and not listening to mine.

What I DON'T like, are those who reject them *because* they are "American". You ever hear of snobby, insolent Americans who are disgusted by the smell of foreigners - in their OWN LAND? Well, I don't like it when people do it to me, either - *while* enjoying the freedoms of this nation and its benefits. I don't like being insulted by foreigners - read my lips, *foreigners* - who come here and sneer at the Americans. They're like the 9/11 terrorists who blew up Americans because they were evil, corrupt and decadent - but squandered money in strip joints and on booze in Florida, in violation of their own religion.

You criticize your girlfriend because she just wants to get her take of America and not support our country. But what about all of the millions of native-born Americans who want to do the same damn thing?

These two aren't related, but ... I'd have no problem kicking their azzes too. If anyone hates this country, they have no business benefitting from it.

I gave ten years of my life to my country, so should I consider anyone who chose to go to college, get a carreer, and raise a family in a nice civilian job less of an American? If you didn't serve your country, can I view you as you view your girlfriend, that being someone who wants the bennies of being an American but not sacrifice for them?

That's up to you. I don't see that I'm even suggesting that. I don't see what I'm saying as being anything near that. I even respect some liiberals who think by attacking the current administration that they are *saving* this country. They're doing it because they love this nation, even if I disagree with them. If you don't agree with me, that's part of being an American. You don't want to celebrate the 4th of July, that's your deal. But if it's because you HATE this country, then do us all a favor and go someplace better.

After Pearl Harbor there were long lines at every recruiting station as men rushed to meet their obligation to their country. Where were the same lines after 9/11? Men were looked down upon during WWII if they didn't serve, how about now? Maybe there were a lot of imigrants who didn't feel a need to risk their necks for America after 9/11, but there were far more "real" Americans who apparently didn't feel the need either. So should those people be forced to go to some other country? How about people who find every possible deduction they can to avoid paying taxes? Should they get the boot also, or is that just good American common sense?

I really have no idea what your point is here. My comment was that after a few generations, immigrants who came here WERE the Americans. It took a little bit of getting used to, and historically, this has ALWAYS been the case. But it wasn't long before their descendants looked upon THIS nation as their own, and when it was attacked, they stood in line with others to defend it.

I'm not saying anything about those who DIDN'T sign up. That's irrelevant to my point. What those immigrants DIDN'T do - and what several I know today ARE saying they'll do - is sign up for the other side.

I don't know where you grew up, but in Pittsburgh there was no American utopia of a mixed, non-distinguishable, race of formerly trashed Italians, Irish, and Poles.

Sounds a lot like Northeast PA - Irish, Italians and Poles. Or Lancaster PA - with the Germans. Or Boston - with the Irish, Italians - and where I lived - Greeks, Portuguese and French-Canadians (fishing industry). Yep, lived that.

Each group had its own little area, and most of them stuck with their native traditions and languages. It was their children, and more so their grandchildren, who acclimated - but only to a degree. Even though Catholics are a minority in the Pittsburgh area, try to find someone from the 'Burgh who didn't grow up eating fish sandwiches every Friday?

In Boston and NE PA, almost EVERYONE is Catholic. Going to church was like going to the town meeting or PTA. We had an Italian and an Irish priest and I was the altar boy. The Flahertys lived next door to the Tomzyks and the Tomasonis. It was a weird town if you *weren't* one of those three. I'm very familiar with the ethnic distinctions of each. Do you know what it's like to have so many Irish and Poles in your school, you have to say WHICH Pat O'Malley you're referring to?

But it would have p!ssed me off if each of them decided that they needed separate church services, just to stay different. Do you see what I'm saying yet? People can maintain their ethnic heritage. That IS part of being American. But we also have our own identity and culture. That's also part of being American. Church socials had strombolis and pierogis. But no one was ASHAMED of being American.

My wife and I are in the process of adopting children from Russia. We've decided that they will keep their Russian names, and they will learn their Russian heritage, even though we don't have it. It's part of who they are. I've always respected that. Heaven help the moron who thinks we should change their names if they happen to be Yuri or Boris. Sorry. That's their name. We respect that.

You couldn't find a restauraunt in downtown that didn't serve up great fish sandwiches every Friday. This wasn't an American tradition, rather an adaptation to the local culture to adapt itself to the needs of Catholics who couldn't eat meat on Friday. the culture changed, not those coming to the area.

And we're not objecting to that - at least, I'm not. You don't throw away your culture. American culture is a blend of all of them. That's why you can go to the Safeway and pick up sushi right on the shelf near the cannolis. And when I lived in Langley Park - possibly the MOST ethnic area in the DC area - I shopped at the Cuban, Chinese, Jamaican, Indian and Vietnamese markets. No one's saying lo thou must eat burgers and fries to be American. It's when you spit it out and say I won't have anything to do with that American crap, I'm [insert ethnicity here] that p!sses me off. When I lived in Boston, the Irish in Southie had no problems going to the Italian markets in North End. The Portuguese in Cambridge held little festivals and everyone was welcome. To put it simply, it was delightful. If any of them said they were disgusted with this country, I'd kick their azz - and I don't care if their daddy came on the Mayflower.

As for imigrants just coming here and demanding handouts, how many of them do you see? How many welfare checks are being mailed out to illegal immigrants? None.

How do you feel about Social Security being paid to illegals? How about illegals who go back to Mexico? How do you feel about voting rights, for illegals? Driver's licenses? Schools taught in Spanish, for mostly illegals?

I remember driving across the bridge on RT 231 when they were redoing it and seeing a dozen or so Mexicans, likely illegals, working there on the water and in the freezing cold. Do you want to volunteer for that kind of work?

Do you any idea what kind of crap work I *have* done? After moving out of Boston, I came home to my parents house, where they were hosting a family from Panama - trying to make their way in this country. Since I had no job, I went out on those crews in the freezing cold, and in the heat. Most of the time, we were roofers, and that's miserable work. I worked on crews where I was the ONLY English speaker amongst the crew. I drove the other three Panamanian guys to and from work every day, and I was the only one speaking English. I learned a lot of Spanish bad words then. And that's just one example.

Please don't try to mix up anecdotal evidence with what you're describing. It doesn't prove anything.

It seems like you and 2A feel that now is a great time, and that our current culture is the best it can be and we don't need to change anything in order to accomodate someone coming on from a foreign land, but I would guess I could find views identical to that going back to the Pilgrims.

It seems you really need a lesson in reading comprehension. NOTHING I'm saying is along that line.

Bottom line, you love this country, do what you like. You hate this country, then get out. The transition is always rough.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Trust me... I've missed nothing. It sounds to me like you're 100% for seperatism. What you are really saying that if these imigrants don't want to be like "you", then they should go back home. It's really all about you, not them. You celebrate Christmas, so everyone should. You celebrate Thanksgiving, so everyone should. You don't celebrate Boxing Day, so no one else should. Once again, in case you missed it, if people like you had been running things in the past we would never have the great culture you so love today because they would have told immigrants that they either need to adapt or get the heck out. We would all be eating venison, corn, and potatos every night, women would be expected to sit about the house all day waving fans at themselves while slaves did the chores, and the kids working at the "It's A Small World" ride at Disney would all be unemployed (and that's even sadder than the thought of some poor kid having to sit in that ride for eight hours a day.)

So... let's say we pack up all these miscreants who don't want to live like Americans, read as "You", and we deport them back to their countries of origin. What about the folks who were born here but who for one reason or another don't want to celebrate holidays like Christmas or Thanksgiving? How about those who don't celebrate Easter? How about those Libs and atheists who don't like saying the pledge of allegience? Do we ship them back to Libsylvannia or Athiestica? What about those folks who want a pizza or some perogies instead of a slab of deer meat? And who really needs all those Chinamen acting like idiots by running around under a silk dragon during Chinese New Year... heck, that's an un-American day if ever there was one. How about those Americans who want to act outside their culture and celebrate on St. Patricks's Day or Cinco de Mayo? Do we give them the boot too? I think you would soon find yourself a lonely man if you got rid of everyone who doesn't act "American" like you... not that I would miss the Libs and the atheists.

Our culture is what it is becuase of people not wanting to conform to the America they found, and wanting to do things the way they did in their homelands. Our culture is what it is because of people having a great deal of pride in their native cultures and belief structures. Our culture is what it is because American culture has always been flexible enough to adapt to the changes brought in by those hard-nosed immigrants who wanted to inject their culture into ours. And most importantly of all, American culture is what it is because people, wherever they come from, have the freedom of choice to live like 2A or his Little Havana housekeeper. How we choose to live is all up to the individual... the way it should be.

You, again missed it. I believe you are being a Muslim's left hand. Insult intended.

I would love everyone to be Christians and celebrate Christmas, but that is not what I said or even implied.

 

[Bruzilla]

Who's projecting? I'm hearing everything you're saying, and what you're saying is that people should adapt to YOUR view of what America should be or leave (or don't come here in the first place.) And my response to you, and others like you, is define what it is to be an American... and you guys can never, ever, do that. You still don't get the most important point, that being that being American is realizing that you can't tell people that they have to leave because they disagree with your personal perception of what's right because our understanding of what's "right" is always changing.

You cited a failure of willingness to defend your country, a willingness to be a "parasite" and exist on handouts, and saying you don't want to be considered as an American as reasons to tell someone to leave; and 2A apparently thinks that not wanting to learn English is a good enough reason. A vast majority of Americans do not want to defend their country and expect someone else to do that work; we're getting damn close to a majority of Americans expecting some handout or another from America; if someone can point out a group of people in this country who work harder for less than illegal immigrants I would damn sure like to meet them; and lastly I'm sure there are plenty of Black Americans who would be willing to tell you that you have no idea how to speak English, just as surely as a young kid from Pittsburgh would recoil at someone from Massachusettes offering them a tonic (because tonic to me was medicine, not Coca-Cola.) So I would make the point that there is no shortage of native-born Americans who do the same things you attribute to people who "don't want to be Americans" and even worse, so how can you say that these things are un-American when many or most Americans do them???

As for your last points...

How do you feel about Social Security being paid to illegals? Our criteria for receiving SS payments is how much you've paid into the system. Most illegals pay into the SS system (as well as income tax withholding and unemployment insurance), usually using phony SSNs, so they never get that money back. What do you think happens to all that money that the government gets? It helps make SS payments to folks like our parents (and ourselves someday) and helps pay the bills while none of it gets paid back to the people who earned it. I think that SS payments should be made to anyone who paid into the system, regardless of their status or where they live.

How do you feel about voting rights, for illegals? Absolutely not.

Driver's licenses? Hard to say since I've had foreign DLs without a need to be a resident or proving anything besides my address and identity. The purpose of a DL is suppossed to be proof that you've met the minimal requirements to operate a motor vehicle, but that's migrated into a quasi-national ID card, which is something that's totally different. And, on that point, since DLs are so incredibly easy to fake, does it really matter? Would we be better off giving illegals DLs that are based on some level of legitimate documentation, or have them use ones that are totally fake and based on nothing?

Schools taught in Spanish, for mostly illegals? Absolutley not. The language of the United States is English, and anyone who comes here should expect to learn English in order to succeed in school (or business.) If you choose not to learn, more power to you, but don't expect the taxpayers to pay for your choice.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I can't speak for 2A, but it does look like you're putting words in his mouth. Maybe you should start with considering his point that he ISN'T for separatism, and try to understand - rather than deny it, and say things he's not saying.

*Language* is probably the biggest sticking point, here, and it's no small matter. It's been a big problem across the planet, and I've rarely seen it handled well. For the first couple hundred years, immigrants who come here, by and large, learn the language - just as emigrants FROM here are expected to do, elsewhere. We're fortunate that, as the pre-eminent power on the planet, many have chosen to learn our language - but it produces rage when "arrogant" Americans abroad are indignant that stuff isn't found in English. No one ever "owes" you anything - and that includes ME.

I used to have a girlfriend from another couuntry, and she was anxious to move here, because of the enormous tax burden in her own country - here, she could own a home, make more money, and pay fewer taxes. She also made it clear she would never become a citizen, never support the government, never support the USA and if called upon, refuse to help the government in any way. She occasionally asked if she could do things like refuse to pay taxes if it supported government actions she opposed. She was anti-American, to put it mildly - but had no problem taking advantage of the good things that were here.

I know others like this - they will never fight in a war, and if the United States is attacked, can't say if they won't help the attackers. They are most clearly not here to BE American - they are being, for lack of a better term - parasites. They don't just claim their homeland is better - they detest this nation.

(Actually, what I find hysterical, is that I work with 'separatists' - who are only second generation themselves. I couldn't believe it when a young Pakistani kid I work with kept saying "they should send all these other people home").

I was listening to the radio the other day and a guy was mentioning that his grandfather was a young man just prior to the first World War - during the time of the HUGE influx of immigrants (which, both as a percentage and by numbers - is still much smaller than the wave of *illegals* we're experiencing). His opinion is, there's always been resistance to waves of legal immigrants. The Irish, Italians and Poles were considered trash - but within a generation, they had integrated so fully into the American society, they were sometimes held up as "more American, than Americans". They have their culture, and their traditions - but - they're Americans, now. They may be Italian-Americans or Irish Americans - but they're Americans. When the war against Hitler came up, they signed up. THIS is their home.

When someone makes this place their honest-to-God home, I can welcome and respect that. When they come here, spit on my flag and demand handouts, I'm p!ssed at that. Because no other country would put up with that either.

Sam got it! Thank you.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Yeah... I know what 2A is saying. ... I'm still waiting to hear someone tell me at what point in American history we should have cut-off the melting or joining of our culture. It seems like you and 2A feel that now is a great time, and that our current culture is the best it can be and we don't need to change anything in order to accomodate someone coming on from a foreign land, but I would guess I could find views identical to that going back to the Pilgrims.

You are so full of fecal matter your eyes must be brown. You eyes are certainly so clouded by your own that you don't see well enough to read.

You say you understand what I have posted, but your posts prove you have blinders on and have not read with comprehension anything I have posted.

Let me try again. I am all for the LEGAL immigrant that wants to become PART of the American culture, to meld their culture with ours, thereby changing our culture but at the same time giving up portions of theirs. I am totally against those that want to retain their complete culture, not accept any of the U.S. culture and open exhibit disdain for the U.S. and all our customs.