Housebreaking, Part II

[SamSpade]

The pups are now about 5 months old, and very rarely poop in the house - they've only done it once in the last month and a half, and that's mainly because the last time it happened, they were stuck indoors and couldn't "hold it". The male appears to be completely house-trained - he even cried repeatedly in the middle of the night once, and when I went downstairs to let him out of his crate, he darted out the doggie door and began to relieve himself IMMEDIATELY. So he at least has learned - poop and pee is only for outside in the grass (although when it's raining, he goes on the pavement).

But the female is another story. She doesn't go in her crate, and poops outside - but some of the time, she just pees wherever she feels like going. Bluejay even noticed that once, she went outside to our upper (outdoor) deck to pee - and we had a few seconds of "golden rain" trickling through. Last night, she at least made it through the doorway to go right on the welcome mat pad. But sometimes, with the door wide open, she will pee on the carpet within a few FEET of the outdoors. Every night before they get put to bed, I take them outside for a last "pee run" - he goes right away, she refuses to even step outside. Since we reward them for going to the bathroom, she runs right inside for her treat, even though she didn't go. (We *don't* reward her until she DOES go).

Now, she's still five months old, and we've been trying to housebreak her for two months now - going on three months. Maybe some dogs are slower. I really don't want to have to confine her to the crate all the time while her brother is free to move about at will, but I can't have a grown dog peeing in the house. She's already a bit of a discipline problem - she won't come when called, jumps on people and seems to have NO fear of being shouted at when she does something bad.

I've heard that *hitting* dogs generally doesn't work - but I can't figure out what's going to make her realize I'm mad at her - everything seems to be a game.

 

[vraiblonde]

I've heard that *hitting* dogs generally doesn't work -

Larry hit my dog once. Ask him how that worked out for him.

First, what kind of dogs are they?

Second, I have no advice because I suck as a dog Mommy. But I equate pets with children, so I would be firm and stand the puppy in the corner when it does wrong, then try to reinforce the pee/outside connection.

 

[SamSpade]

Larry hit my dog once. Ask him how that worked out for him.

First, what kind of dogs are they?

Second, I have no advice because I suck as a dog Mommy. But I equate pets with children, so I would be firm and stand the puppy in the corner when it does wrong, then try to reinforce the pee/outside connection.

They are shepherd mixes - oddly enough, they don't look a lot alike, even though they are from the same litter - she has more dobe/Rottweiler color, his coloring resemble Scooby Doo - brown, but with a black muzzle. He's husky and sturdy, and trots like a bulldog - she's slick, lean, furry and fast as a whippet. It'd help to know what the "mix" was. They're both gonna be big dogs, and right now they're getting into the trash, beg from the table and they try to eat just about anything that gets into their mouth. Right now, it's a simple matter to just put things out of their reach - but it doesn't stop them from trying. Once they're grown, they'll be able to get *everything*.

I know from watching "The Dog Whisperer" that dog training is a little more harsh than you'd ever do to a child. In puppy kindergarden, we use choker chains - and they work, when used properly. Rewarding good behavior works sometimes, but I can't seem to get her to BE AFRAID of me when I'm mad. Yesterday I found her sleeping on my couch, and when I shouted at her, her reaction was almost CAT-LIKE in the way she ignored me. Even my cats would have run like hell if I shouted at them - but that's because I *would* hit them if they didn't comply. I think SOMEHOW I have to re-inforce the idea that shouting means " a smack is coming if you don't obey ". Thus revealing my basic philosophy that the use or threat of force is the bottom line of all authority.

 

[cattitude]

She is still young. It can take up to a year for a dog to be reliably housetrained. Are you going out with her each time and praising her immediately?

Where are you taking them for training? CHOKE CHAINS on puppies?

If you really want my advice, I will be happy to talk to you via pm, on the phone or you can even come visit my menagerie.

I have a different philosophy than most on training my dogs but my dogs are fairly well behaved and I do not use force or punishment.

I never want my dogs to be afraid of me.

 

[Geek]

Watch the Dog Whisperer.
http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

It is an amazing resource.

 

[vraiblonde]

I never want my dogs to be afraid of me.

I wanted my dog to fear my disapproval, not me personally. It's the saddest thing in the world when someone raises their hand to pet their dog, and the dog flinches away.

 

[cattitude]

I wanted my dog to fear my disapproval, not me personally. It's the saddest thing in the world when someone raises their hand to pet their dog, and the dog flinches away.

It took about 2 months for Buster not to flinch when we raised our hands.

 

[Elle]

I don't know much about dogs and am very thankful that mine was house trained by 3 months old but just a question; do they have constant access to water and food? Just like when my son was little and learning, we adopted the nothing to drink after 8 pm in our house. As for the daytime accidents, have you tried taking them (or rather her) out more often, maybe she'd go out more if there was someone out with her? I know sometimes when I let Noelle out she’ll do her wiz then come back up on the deck and want in even if she really isn’t finished her business, she waits for me to come out with her and then will go back to the yard and finish.

 

[virgovictoria]

Lily, like your boy, learned well, easily and sought my attention when she needed to go out early on.

Emma (these two are litter mates as well), was hard headed, manipulative, tested the waters and would push me to my limits. I did crate training, positive reinforcement, submissive training, puppy pads and EVERYTHING IN REPEAT UNDER THE SUN, until she finally trained me! She no longer *messed* in the house after "x" amount of months (her problem was pooping), but she will hold it until SHE is ready to go, regardless of the amount of walks, indications, etc...

I do believe that you do have to demand a good amount of respect and even, as Vrai stated, fear of your disapproval into them... It's for their own safety...

I'd be interested to know what the "mix" is in your dogs too...

 

[SamSpade]

She is still young. It can take up to a year for a dog to be reliably housetrained. Are you going out with her each time and praising her immediately?

Where are you taking them for training? CHOKE CHAINS on puppies?

If you really want my advice, I will be happy to talk to you via pm, on the phone or you can even come visit my menagerie.

I have a different philosophy than most on training my dogs but my dogs are fairly well behaved and I do not use force or punishment.

I never want my dogs to be afraid of me.

Well, I'm thinking that like children, some dogs are just going to take longer. In my opinion, she's the smarter of the two dogs, which leads me to believe that she's *willfully* being disobedient. Last night Bluejay and I were pretty angry at her, because twice she pee'd IN the house in a room with an open door to the outside in full view of everyone. Each "accident" was less than ten feet from the door. Her brother had no problem going right out the door.

They are going to puppy kindergarden in Leonardtown. With luck, we'll take them to obedience training after that. I've read and the instructor has confirmed that choke chains - when used properly - are perfectly effective and not cruel. He makes it clear that you do not use the restrictive part of the collar to choke, but to make short jolts on the connection to inform the dog that his behavior is incorrect - just a quick tug. His own dogs appear happy and well-behaved.

I know I don't want my dogs running from me or flinching from my hand - on the other hand, they don't even respond to screaming at them. They completely ignore it. You can't wave, growl disapprovingly, talk sternly - nothing. They don't care. When they get into the trash, they do it right in front of me - and they don't stop at all. I don't want to hit my dogs, but right now, they show absolutely no respect for either of us as their "leader". *Somewhere* I have to think that they have to respect or fear me at some level - even the alpha dog in a pack will smack down an animal that doesn't respect him.

The problem dog used to come when called, but now she refuses - and it's not a "I'm scared of what you might do" reaction, because I've never hit them. She just refuses, and since she's STOPPED doing it, I know it can't be because she doesn't know what to do.

 

[SamSpade]

Watch the Dog Whisperer.
http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

It is an amazing resource.

We've watched it many times - I mentioned it in the post just prior to yours, in case you posted this before mine appeared.

 

[Softballkid]

I know I don't want my dogs running from me or flinching from my hand - on the other hand, they don't even respond to screaming at them. They completely ignore it. You can't wave, growl disapprovingly, talk sternly - nothing. They don't care. When they get into the trash, they do it right in front of me - and they don't stop at all. I don't want to hit my dogs, but right now, they show absolutely no respect for either of us as their "leader". *Somewhere* I have to think that they have to respect or fear me at some level - even the alpha dog in a pack will smack down an animal that doesn't respect him.

QUOTE]


I know my Rotti will respond to myself, or my gf yelling at him, but when others do it, he normally looks at them, turns his head a little to the left, and gives them that "and who and the hell are you" look, which is hilarious...

As for the dog training, maybe the female thinks that the bro has claimed the outside, so she is claiming the inside of the house... try taking them out seperately and see if that starts to help, then progress to letting them out together...

Just a thought to maybe try out....

 

[SamSpade]

I don't know much about dogs and am very thankful that mine was house trained by 3 months old but just a question; do they have constant access to water and food? Just like when my son was little and learning, we adopted the nothing to drink after 8 pm in our house. As for the daytime accidents, have you tried taking them (or rather her) out more often, maybe she'd go out more if there was someone out with her? I know sometimes when I let Noelle out she’ll do her wiz then come back up on the deck and want in even if she really isn’t finished her business, she waits for me to come out with her and then will go back to the yard and finish.

I think the water thing might be a good idea, although at this point, I'm not totally sure how that's going to be done. Basically, they have their own room in the house - the furnace room, which years ago had been a laundry room. It has its own exit from the house, with a doggie door installed. Their routine each day goes like this - out of the crates at 4, fed, with the door to their room closed to the rest of the house - they are free to go outside and do their business if they want. (When they were really small, I took them outside, because they were eager to "go" in the morning. Lately, they roll over in their crates and look at me as if to say "aw dad, it's too eeeaaaarrr-leeee" and they just yawn without moving). I leave for work. I come home, change, and open the door allowing them access to the house (although it is just the downstairs, because in the past, free access to the house just meant, they managed to destroy more things in a short period of time). Until bedtime, the door to their room, the back door to the outside and of course the doggie door are all freely open, and someone is usually with them at all times. We watch TV with them playing in front of us, or in our laps, or snoozing nearby. (They get fed again, usually around 5). Bedtime is around 10:30 or 11, and they get two biscuits for going into their crate at night - they love this - they now know that the word "bedtime" means, go to your crate and you'll get treats. It's the one command they are eager to follow.

When they were small and needed to "go" constantly, we always accompanied them, watching for when they sniffed around to make sure they had a chance to pee, and usually took them out every hour, to avoid accidents. Generally the rule is, if they go outside and do their business, when they come back in they get a treat. The male understands this, but the female seems to think that a treat is given JUST FOR PHYSICALLY BEING OUTSIDE. She often walks outside, and then trots back in toward the treat bowl.

They always get a "good boy" or "good girl" and attention and affection when they "go" outside alongside us.

Maybe it's just going to take time for us - Bluejay is thinking that getting rid of the downstairs carpet, either permanently or temporarily will solve some of the problem of the stench, and their desire to "go" down there. I admit, I'm getting wearly of daily rug shampoo-ings.

 

[SamSpade]

I know I don't want my dogs running from me or flinching from my hand - on the other hand, they don't even respond to screaming at them. They completely ignore it. You can't wave, growl disapprovingly, talk sternly - nothing. They don't care. When they get into the trash, they do it right in front of me - and they don't stop at all. I don't want to hit my dogs, but right now, they show absolutely no respect for either of us as their "leader". *Somewhere* I have to think that they have to respect or fear me at some level - even the alpha dog in a pack will smack down an animal that doesn't respect him.

I know my Rotti will respond to myself, or my gf yelling at him, but when others do it, he normally looks at them, turns his head a little to the left, and gives them that "and who and the hell are you" look, which is hilarious...

As for the dog training, maybe the female thinks that the bro has claimed the outside, so she is claiming the inside of the house... try taking them out seperately and see if that starts to help, then progress to letting them out together...

Just a thought to maybe try out....

The outside is almost an acre. She does poop only outside - never indoors. She also pees outside - sometimes. At first, I suspected a lack of bladder control, because once or twice, she pee'd on the carpet right where she was lying down. The way they pee is also different - he tends to wait until he has a gallon or two to unload - so when HE goes, you will hear it. (He does it only outside, although he hasn't learned to leg-lift yet - he just sorta leans forward a little). She pees in tiny increments - that's also how we know who is doing it when we don't catch them in the act (also, they each have favorite areas in the downstairs to hang out, so we know who "did it").

I don't think it's a territorial thing - when they are with me in the outdoors, they go whenever they want. I do think it's related to her disobedience - she is the one who isn't afraid of being bad right in front of me - she has no "fear" of me or my voice.

It IS pretty hard to separate them - they're really attached to one another, which we really wanted from the beginning. We got two dogs, because we did't want them to be lonely, since we both work. And with all the rough play, they do like each other a lot.

 

[Softballkid]

Ic ic... My Rotti didnt start the leg lift until he was almost a year He did the same thing your male does, the lean forward deal... but he also gets a gallon or two of water, then unloads...

As for her, it just seems strange, because generally, females tend to pick up on housebreaking sooner than males... "generally"....... Maybe she does have a small bladder... My mom and dads dog took no time to house break, but that was also because someone was home dang near ALL the time (mom did daycare).......

We are now in the testing stage with the Rotti, he is crate trained, and now he's getting older, he has been sleepin in the bedroom for a while now, he has no issues over night, no matter how long we sleep, if he really needs to go, he will wake me up and bug me till I get up and let him out.... Now when we go places, if we wont be gone "too long" we will leave him out, and he messed up 1 time, chewed some stuff up, and pee'd on the side of the couch, needless to say, back to the crate while we were gone...but now he is back to where he can stay out for a while if we are gone, no problems since...though gf wont let me try him one day while we are both gone at work...

But to your female, maybe everytime you see or know she is drinking, wait 5 minutes, and take her out for a bit, and try working that option for a while to see if it may help....

There are tons of things to try.... if need be, buy a remote shock collar, I bought one for the Rotti, I have only shocked him 3 times since Ive had it (a few months now) and he has totally changed (he like'd to jump and all that around people and little ones) but, could be an option...

 

[SamSpade]

As for her, it just seems strange, because generally, females tend to pick up on housebreaking sooner than males... "generally"....... Maybe she does have a small bladder... My mom and dads dog took no time to house break, but that was also because someone was home dang near ALL the time (mom did daycare)....

That's the part that is so frustrating - they're outside - or have access to the outside - all day long. She only pees indoors when we're downstairs WITH them. Admittedly, she's doing it away from our sight, and since she piddles in such small quantities, it usually is something that takes about a second or two - easily enough time to not be caught.

 

[Softballkid]

That's the part that is so frustrating - they're outside - or have access to the outside - all day long. She only pees indoors when we're downstairs WITH them. Admittedly, she's doing it away from our sight, and since she piddles in such small quantities, it usually is something that takes about a second or two - easily enough time to not be caught.

I dunno...that is weird though

 

[slik]

They are going to puppy kindergarden in Leonardtown. With luck, we'll take them to obedience training after that. I've read and the instructor has confirmed that choke chains - when used properly - are perfectly effective and not cruel. He makes it clear that you do not use the restrictive part of the collar to choke, but to make short jolts on the connection to inform the dog that his behavior is incorrect - just a quick tug. His own dogs appear happy and well-behaved.

I know I don't want my dogs running from me or flinching from my hand - on the other hand, they don't even respond to screaming at them. They completely ignore it. You can't wave, growl disapprovingly, talk sternly - nothing. They don't care. When they get into the trash, they do it right in front of me - and they don't stop at all. I don't want to hit my dogs, but right now, they show absolutely no respect for either of us as their "leader". *Somewhere* I have to think that they have to respect or fear me at some level - even the alpha dog in a pack will smack down an animal that doesn't respect him.

I've used choke collars on all of my dog and like you've said, used properly there is no real ill effect on the dog. They should normally hang loosely.

I never wanted my dogs to be a afraid of me physically so I refrained from striking them. Sure a quick tap on the snoot but that was it. What I used was a beer can with about 15 pennies in it. The top was taped shut and anytime they were doing something wrong I would throw the can - not at them - but i n the direction of where they were. It would normally scare the crap outta them. Definitely got their attention. I would follow it up with "your a bad dog". Over time all I had to say was "I'm getting the can" and they would run to their crates. There were even times that the dogs might be doing something they even think was not right and they would actully look at me then look at the counter were the can sat. Kind of their way of saying - am I being good ?

If you try this method one bit of advice thought. Tape the entire can with duck tape. I used a Coor's can and only taped the top. Any guests we had that drank Coor's the dog avoided or hid from.

Be patient and good luck.

 

[bresamil]

Sam - I'm zeroing in on your statement that she only goes a little bit each time - have you had her checked for a urinary tract or bladder infection?

 

[cattitude]

Sam - I'm zeroing in on your statement that she only goes a little bit each time - have you had her checked for a urinary tract or bladder infection?

Females tend to be piddlers. I think the problem is that while she is free to go out, she doesn't KNOW that's what she is supposed to do.