Housebreaking, Part II

[cattitude]

The problem dog used to come when called, but now she refuses - and it's not a "I'm scared of what you might do" reaction, because I've never hit them. She just refuses, and since she's STOPPED doing it, I know it can't be because she doesn't know what to do.

Five months is just the time they start trying their indpendence and you must practice the recall (as well as other commands) every day.

I think you are expecting way too much for their young age.

 

[cattitude]

I've used choke collars on all of my dog and like you've said, used properly there is no real ill effect on the dog. They should normally hang loosely.

I prefer the Gentle Leader and it works much better than a choke collar and it's much more effective.

 

[sweetpea15]

I don't know if this will help with the girl but when you take her out to pee tell her to go pee pee. I did this this my Jack Russell and she knows what it means. When it is raining I let her out and tell her to go pee pee and when she does she comes back in. When she does i tell her good girl Jill. I give her a treat also.

 

[SamSpade]

Sam - I'm zeroing in on your statement that she only goes a little bit each time - have you had her checked for a urinary tract or bladder infection?

The vet tried to check for that last time (I think). Anyway, that's next on our list when we see the vet Friday, again.

 

[Chasey_Lane]

Sam,

I am no expert at potty training (I'm still trying to get my little one trained), but I'm wondering if maybe you're giving them too much room? I think you've mentioned before they're in the laundry area, right? With a doggy door, too? It sounds like a lot of freedom and maybe they're getting confused? :shrug:

Mine stays in his crate during the day, and then is confined to the foyer in the evenings if we're not able to give him full attention. It took many weeks for him to stop pottying in his crate (everyday). Though, I noticed that once I started confining him more, the accidents became fewer & far between.

 

[SamSpade]

Sam,

I am no expert at potty training (I'm still trying to get my little one trained), but I'm wondering if maybe you're giving them too much room? I think you've mentioned before they're in the laundry area, right? With a doggy door, too? It sounds like a lot of freedom and maybe they're getting confused? :shrug:

Mine stays in his crate during the day, and then is confined to the foyer in the evenings if we're not able to give him full attention. It took many weeks for him to stop pottying in his crate (everyday). Though, I noticed that once I started confining him more, the accidents became fewer & far between.

It really doesn't seem that way, but I guess even with litter-mates, every dog is different. Moreso than my wife, I'm much more concerned about her lack of obedience. It p!sses me off that she can tip over the garbage, and I can charge at her angrily, and her attitude is "I don't care what's got you p!ssed off so long as it doesn't interfere with me in this garbage pail". Won't get off the couch. She's just disobedient. She's the one who chewed through the electrical cord, giving herself a nasty shock - and immediately did it AGAIN after I very loudly waved her off. I just worry that she's just dumb enough to watch an approaching car and ignore it. She's the one that will climb up on the table to grab your dinner if you step more than a few feet away from it.

She's just - bad. And like I said - totally not afraid of us. And I have to believe it's because we haven't given her *reason* to be afraid.

Anyway - they don't pee or poop in "their room" - and they definitely don't do it in their crates. SHE did, at first, and then learned she could just stick her butt up to the edge of the crate and go "outside" the crate - I'd come in, in the morning and see poop and pee just outside her crate, knowing she'd been inside it all night. However, they leave their room alone.

I suspect if we blocked access to some of the room we're in, that might help - but she has still piddled on the carpet right in front of us, within a foot of an open door.

I guess I'm just flabbergasted, because her brother basically has it. Basically, because he hates wet grass, and will avoid it always - when the grass is wet with rain or dew, he will go on the sidewalk. Last night, as always I take them out for a last pee run before bedtime. As usual, he came right out, she whined at the door and refused to even walk out on the grass. He resisted, I walked way out into the darkness, so he eventually followed me - and then peed, when he got within a few feet. True to his nature, he walked over to the pool paved area and walked all the way around the grass to the porch so he wouldn't have to walk in wet grass. He's weird, but he has it down.

 

[SamSpade]

Oh, and for the unsigned red I got for mentioning the use of choke chains - one, I'm just following the advice of my dog trainer; I assume he knows more than I do; and two, they are only EVER on them when they are being trained for one hour a week - they're not torture devices, unless you yourself are some kind of sadist. The other 99% of the time, they wear their collars with their name and our phone number on them.

They have a million toys, and get massively spoiled most of the time. They couldn't ask for better "parents".

 

[SamSpade]

There are tons of things to try.... if need be, buy a remote shock collar, I bought one for the Rotti, I have only shocked him 3 times since Ive had it (a few months now) and he has totally changed (he like'd to jump and all that around people and little ones) but, could be an option...

After watching "Jackazz: The Movie", I'm convinced I could NEVER put one of those on an animal (to the person who gave me red over the choke chain remarks - you haven't a clue how we spoil these animals). It's obviously very painful.

On the other hand, there are other devices out there that use other means. The male is starting to be a barker - he barks at ANY noise he hears. One device I saw releases smells, to discourage barking. While that's annoying, it doesn't hurt them. Another method I saw was to put balloons up where they jump at doors. The sound discourages them from doing that. I'm all for humane, but I want it to work.

 

[Nickel]

Another method I saw was to put balloons up where they jump at doors.

I would be concerned that they'd accidentally eat part of the balloon.

 

[cattitude]

Oh, and for the unsigned red I got for mentioning the use of choke chains - one, I'm just following the advice of my dog trainer; I assume he knows more than I do; and two, they are only EVER on them when they are being trained for one hour a week - they're not torture devices, unless you yourself are some kind of sadist. The other 99% of the time, they wear their collars with their name and our phone number on them.

They have a million toys, and get massively spoiled most of the time. They couldn't ask for better "parents".

Well, it wasn't me.

Sam, really you need to spend more time with her, SHOWING her what you want her to do. You need to take her out, say a "pee-pee" word and when she does it, praise her. If she is peeing in the house, it is your fault. She has too much run of the house, whether it's in her room or not. You have to PREVENT the accidents from happening or she won't know the difference.

You really should take them out into public, different situations, around people. Get them well socialized, put them through their paces...sit, wait, stay, down, etc. where there are distractions. This teaches them confidence and they learn how to behave in all situations.

As for your trainer, there are a ton of trainers out there and I've been to many different ones in my dog-rearing years. I work with one now that I wouldn't trade for anything. She is terrific and her methods and philosphy are the best I've ever experienced and I've seen her do wonders with dogs that you would have thought would be untrainable.

http://www.caninemind.com/

 

[SamSpade]

I would be concerned that they'd accidentally eat part of the balloon.

Yeah, I thought about that.

I'd also heard discouraging news about toys with squeaky balls inside them - because they might (might? they ALWAYS rip them up) tear them open and swallow the squeaky ball. That's a shame, because they LOVE those toys more than anything else. The only other thing that comes close are toys that are thick and soft (easy to bit and carry) and toys with limbs and long, stretchy parts (because when they shake them around, they flail like a real "prey").

It's kinda cute to be upstairs in bed at night and hear squeaking downstairs - I know they like their toys.

 

[GeezLouise]

Does anyone know of any good dog "trainers" in the St. Mary's County area?

 

[cattitude]

Does anyone know of any good dog "trainers" in the St. Mary's County area?

I don't know how far you are willing to drive but I can guarantee you that you won't find a better person to work with than Brett Warren It will be time and money very well spent.

 

[angelphish]

You say you yell at her and she just doesn't get it. And she is trained only one hour a week. I think we need to rethink things here. Training is on going with dogs just as it is with kids. And your yelling at her has no meaning to her other than you being a very scary person. Her piddling could be because she has been scolded too many times and now is afraid to pee in front of you or that you have now associated peeing with being a very bad thing. Relax, don't yell at her and keep a leash on her if you have to just keep her in sight at all times to rush her when she needs to.

Wouldn't hurt either if you don't spoil her rotten. Dogs love structure.

 

[SamSpade]

Well, it wasn't me.

Sam, really you need to spend more time with her, SHOWING her what you want her to do. You need to take her out, say a "pee-pee" word and when she does it, praise her.

I do this with her, all the time. When she resists, I try to push her little bottom down. We've been a little lax, lately, because they don't pee spontaneously, like they used to, and they *usually* do their business outside. My wife uses the phrase "pee-pee in the grass" continually. And we praise her when she does. She's a little weird about contact - she likes it, but not too much. After about ten seconds, she's had enough. (Her brother can never get too much - he cries when our guests leave on the weekends).

If she is peeing in the house, it is your fault. She has too much run of the house, whether it's in her room or not. You have to PREVENT the accidents from happening or she won't know the difference.

Well, you're probably right about that. I think once the doggie door was in, and we didn't need to pay the pet sitter to come by a few times a day, we thought most of the problem was licked, especially since the male is doing so well. This is the first time I've had to house train a dog, since every dog I had before was already trained. I'm not used to the idea of spending virtually all my free time after work and weekends minding the dog. We've been "trusting" them too much.

You really should take them out into public, different situations, around people.

THIS is one area we've done - they are surrounded by people, because our house is a Grand Central Station for people and guests. We take them over to Anne Marie Gardens to go for walks and they ride in the car with us. We've only taken them once to Petco, where the female picked out her own toy and brought it up front.

Get them well socialized, put them through their paces...sit, wait, stay, down, etc. where there are distractions. This teaches them confidence and they learn how to behave in all situations.

THIS is an area we've neglected, and I think the solution probably IS right here - I think unconsciously we were thinking they would learn just by taking them to class, but in reality I have to spend more time with them training them. THAT can be hard, because I've learned it's totally impossible to train them both at the same time. And in all likelihood, I need to take them on walks separately, because they are too distracted with their "buddy" nearby to chase and wrestle with.

"The Dog Whisperer" seems to mention walking as a kind of catch-all solution for most problem dogs - there's something in the whole obedience dynamic when they're walked. He doesn't explicitly mention it - but if you watch about twenty shows, you'll notice how often this is a big part of the solution.

Perhaps this will fix the obedience thing. Right now, I'm trying to find a solution to the dog peeing right in front of us. She does it WAY too fast to catch her in the act - we can only act afterwards. And she resists being taken out specifically to pee, because she won't follow commands or even bribes to go outside to pee. She just does it if she feels like doing it.

 

[SamSpade]

You say you yell at her and she just doesn't get it. And she is trained only one hour a week. I think we need to rethink things here. Training is on going with dogs just as it is with kids. And your yelling at her has no meaning to her other than you being a very scary person. Her piddling could be because she has been scolded too many times and now is afraid to pee in front of you or that you have now associated peeing with being a very bad thing. Relax, don't yell at her and keep a leash on her if you have to just keep her in sight at all times to rush her when she needs to.

Wouldn't hurt either if you don't spoil her rotten. Dogs love structure.

You're right about that. The Dog Whisperer mentions that in the absence of an alpha leader, dogs will assume the role themselves. They need that structure, but they're not always consigned to "pack follower" if the leadership is absent.

I think you may be right about the training thing - they need one-on-one time with the training. The vet mentioned that a dog will pee AWAY from you - in hiding - if they feel scolded too much. They're not being sneaky, just cautious. I don't think she's even a little afraid of me. Like I said, she ignores me the way a cat would; she's oblivious. A book I read said to add a growl to your voice when you express displeasure - doesn't do anything.

But I think the one-on-one specific attention is the thing they're lacking. Up until recently, I've tried to train them at the same time, to no effect, because they will both try to steal each other's treats - and they distract one another.

 

[Nickel]

Yeah, I thought about that.

I'd also heard discouraging news about toys with squeaky balls inside them - because they might (might? they ALWAYS rip them up) tear them open and swallow the squeaky ball. That's a shame, because they LOVE those toys more than anything else. The only other thing that comes close are toys that are thick and soft (easy to bit and carry) and toys with limbs and long, stretchy parts (because when they shake them around, they flail like a real "prey").

It's kinda cute to be upstairs in bed at night and hear squeaking downstairs - I know they like their toys.

I let my dog have a squeaky toy, but he's never out of my sight, and loves it too much to tear the squeaker out of it. When he's playing with it, he's usually just following me around the house squeaking it at me (I suppose it's because I squeak it at him when I have it). You just have to watch them at all times. My puppy is around the same age as yours...a little over 5 months old. He's just a baby, and I have to keep that in perspective. Sure, he's a PITA sometimes, but again, he's just a baby, and is doing what babies do. Dogs are so eager to please, you just have to show them what to do to make you happy. She'll get it eventually, but it's going to take a lot of time on your part. Imagine how hard it is to potty train a child. Essentially, that's what you're doing. You can't expect her to just "get it" on her own.

 

[Geek]

My cocker spaniel needed redirection a lot. The only thing that got her to stop being obssesive was to get a spray bottle and put water in it, keep it in the fridge, lift the tail and squirt when the unwanted behavior happened. If she is food motivated, go outside with a treat in your pocket and give it to her when she goes outside correctly. The water trick saved us with Peanut. It sounds weird but it worked for me

 

[angelphish]

Put a little vinegar in the water bottle. It really gets their attention.

 

[SamSpade]

Well last night was a first in a while - no "accidents" of any kind. We cordoned off some of the room downstairs so they couldn't roam around without our eye on them, although they were STILL able to go into our bathroom (we left the door open) and run out the door with the toilet paper unravelling in their mouths. Now that they're bigger, they can't squeeze past the barriers we put up. When they were little puppies, they could get through just about any barrier we created.

Of course, I tried to keep them distracted. One of them did pull out the squeaker in the toy, and so I took it from them - it WAS, in fact, small enough to swallow. I used that much of the evening to get their attention - it works better than a treat. With the back door open, they had their fill of uninvited "guests" coming in, to play with, including the smallest frog I think I've ever seen. I tried to get them interested in little bugs that got in, but the male was too busy looking at my hand (pointing at it), licking my hand, ignoring the bug and eventually - SITTING on the bug (unwittingly). I rubbed his belly and throat, and he liked it so much, he just lifted it up higher, and higher - until he fell over.

I got the female to 'go' twice last night - alhthough it was VERY difficult. Using the squeaker, I was able to get her to follow me out to the grass. Seems to work, for now.