How does this apply to you and your religion? Just curious.

Penn

Dancing Up A Storm
2ndAmendment said:
Here is another one for you indicating how Jesus felt about most of the religious leaders of His day.
We were studying this very passage in our Adult Sunday School class this morning. Jesus was saying that these priests were hypocrites and blind guides, because they laid a burden on the Jews that they couldn't possibly bear, and these same priests would do nothing to help these people to cope.

They took the inheritances of the widows of men who died, leaving them pennyless. The dressed in robes with extra long tassles on them, ringed with gold to show their importance and worth.

Oh, how they loved to sit at the most prominent position at the feasting table, so they could be recognized! Jesus told them whoever is greatest among you should also be the least, and whoever is least among you shall also be great.

As 2ndA was saying, these priests would not enter the Kingdom of God, and they would not let the people enter either; for that their reward would be the worst.
 

tirdun

staring into the abyss
2ndAmendment said:
I cannot prove creation nor can anyone prove evolution. Evolution is a matter of faith as is belief in the Bible.

Once again, faith is defined as belief based on personal experience. While faith may be bolstered by facts, it does not rely on them.

Science, including evolution, requires objective fact. Evolution is observable and testable. Is it complete? No, but neither is any other science. Even our oldest sciences such as chemistry and physics are constantly updated. Newton established the foundations of physics. His rules have been updated and altered over time in order to refine them.

Consider how often "modern" science has been wrong; earth was the center of the universe, earth was flat, everything was made of three elements - earth, wind, and fire.

:twitch: That is simply asinine. You are labelling ancient myths as "modern science"?

Scientists have known the earth was round since Greece was the center of the known world. Ancient measurements were even fairly accurate. Galileo proposed the Heliocentric theory in the 1500's when the modern scientific method was in its infancy! Your E/W/F claim is ridiculous!

People miss that evolution is still a theory. A theory is not a fact but a proposed, unproven idea. When a theory is proven, it is no longer called a theory.

Wrong Wrong and Wrong. A theory is a hypothesis that has been verified through experimentation and careful observation. Let me spell this out.

There Is No Higher Scientific Status Than Theory.

A "law" is a mathmatical concept or an observable truism. There are no scientific "laws" that identify the "why" and "how". Electricity=Theroy of electromagnetics. Gravity=Theory of Gravity/Relativity. See? Theories.

I raise this issue. As I understand it, all the dating methods are based on assumptions of radioactive elements being at certain levels and known decay rates or half-life.

These are not "assumptions". You are biasing your description. These are known rates of decay based on the theories of chemistry.

The math formulas that are used have "fudge factors" in them that are valid within given ranges. It is usual that "fudge factor" values would be chosen (since they cannot be determined) as the median value of the range. I have been told (cannot verify) that the values for these "fudge factors" have been chosen at the extreme of the range that would cause the resulting calculated date to be the oldest.

Vastly incorrect and full of half-truths. Radiometric dating gives a "range" based on the known decay rates. While these dating techniques cannot give exact dates, they do give the lower end of how old something is, not the upper end. In other words, something dated is at LEAST so old, not a max.

Radiometric dating has also been verified against other dating systems, including ice-core, geological dating, coral reef dating, tree-ring dates, varve deposit dates and sediment deposit layers. These independently confirm an age of the earth of millions of years.

For further consideration, all these methods were developed post WWII after open air detonation of atomic devices had forever changed the amount of radioactive material, carbon or otherwise, on the surface of the earth.

I would love to see information on how open-air detonations affect the dating of rocks and underground fossils. Further, these spread radioactive material, they did not change the way in which radiation and radioactive decay function.

Darwin had questions about his own theory.

As did Einstein, Watt, Plank, Hubbell, and every scientist. He was proposing a radical concept in biology and was making hypothesis further and further afield from what data he had personally collected. He rushed his work into print because another scientist had come to similar conclusions based on his own research. Some of Darwin's conclusions were correct, others were incomplete or wrong. He freely admitted weaknesses in some areas, weaknesses that have been addressed by modern science.

It has been reported (I don't think proven) that he refuted his own theory before he died, but whether he did or did not is irrelevant.

He did not. Lady Hope reported this with no support while Darwin's daughter and contemporaries reported that he was firmly convinced.

He did question the evolution of the eye and the evolution of creatures that require male and female to reproduce. There were others, but these two raise serious doubts of evolution in my mind.

And Einstein was troubled by facets of relativity, some of which we are still grappling with. The eye is found in nature ranging from a few light-sensitive cells (in burrowing creatures) through a range of complexity levels. The human eye is complex and interesting, but has flaws (the optic nerve is reversed causing a "blind spot"). There are more complex and useful eyes than ours out there, from raptors and falcons to reptiles with independant monocular vision that switches to biocular vision. The eye has independently evolved in insects and vertebrate animals. Other complex functions like wings have evolved independently, repeatedly and in clearly defined steps.

Why would sexual reproduction evolve? How would it evolve? It would require the male and female to evolve at the same time and in the same location.

You are proposing independent evolution of two species and having them then reproduce. This is a ridiculous strawman. Sexual reproduction is apparent in the simplest creatures, plants and insects. As for "why", because it helps to expand the potential genetics of the offspring. Its not a motivated decision, its a change based on the rules of evolution.

I do not expect this post to convince anyone that the Bible is the divine Word of God as I believe. I have posted that that is not my job, but I hope that this has given you "food for thought".

Most modern religions accept evolution. The few organized groups who do not are divided into people who cannot agree on the age of the universe, the age of the earth, the age of the light arriving from distant stars, or the timeline of creation. Intelligent Design is creationism dressed in scientific jargon. There is no unified theory on intelligent design, it is purely a systematic sniping at the fringes of evolution.

Any scientific theory, from the golden theories of chemistry through the newest quantum concept can be overthrown instantly. All you need to do is undermine the foundation of the theory. The reason that these theories survive is because there are no holes in the foundation. We understand the valences of atoms because hypothesis were tested to become theories. New theories add, subtract or modify existing theories. It is a constant, self-fixing proces by which we all live.

I'd ask if your theories of medicine are as Biblically-inspired? There are some treatments for leporasy in the Old Testament. Would you forego modern antibiotics for those theories?

LEV 14:2
"This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean , and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:"
 

Normal Guy

New Member
Most modern religions accept evolution.
Really? Lutherans (A Protestant denomination) don't. Catholics don't. In fact the only Christians that would, would be those that don't accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God.

I'd ask if your theories of medicine are as Biblically-inspired? There are some treatments for leporasy in the Old Testament. Would you forego modern antibiotics for those theories?

Your example from Lev 14:2 is not a prescription for curing leprosy as you imply. That section (Lev 14:1-32) contains the rules for the ceremonial cleansing of a leper after they had already been healed. I believe you meant to cite Lev 13:1-46 "Regulations about infectious skin diseases," but even that does not support your argument since it only discusses how to diagnose skin diseases - no treatment other than putting the person in isolation outside the camp.

There Is No Higher Scientific Status Than Theory.

A "law" is a mathmatical concept or an observable truism. There are no scientific "laws" that identify the "why" and "how". Electricity=Theroy of electromagnetics. Gravity=Theory of Gravity/Relativity. See? Theories.

Physics has a few laws. One of my favorites is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states,

"Every system, left to its own devices, always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability (for work), ultimately becoming totally random and unavailable for work."

In other words, things left alone, tend to get disorderly and messy, degenerate. Why do I bring this up? Because for evolutionary theories to hold true, they would have to violate this law. Evolution maintains that order came from chaos, that life organized from a cataclysmic big bang. Furthermore, biologically complex species (apes, humans) evolved from less complex species. None of this jives with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

I don't understand how evolutionists can continue to ignore a scientific law that has been repeatedly tested and found true in every other instance? I guess because it doens't fit evolutionary theory, it's okay to ignore it? Hardly seems like good science to me.
 

tirdun

staring into the abyss
Normal Guy said:
Really? Lutherans (A Protestant denomination) don't. Catholics don't. In fact the only Christians that would, would be those that don't accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God.

Here is a list of major religions who accept evolution, including Lutherans and Presbeterians and Methodists.

Your example from Lev 14:2 is not a prescription for curing leprosy as you imply.
Agreed, however it is poor and misguided medicine.

As history, Genesis fails on a number of accounts. The Tower of Babel is invalidated by linguistic and historical evidence. Noah's flood is impossible by geology. The timeframe of 6000 years is ridiculous. Go outside tonight and light will hit you from distant stars. That light is millions or billions of years old. If the universe were 6000 years old, none of that light should have reached us yet.

Physics has a few laws. One of my favorites is the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which states,

First, physics has a range of theories that have within them laws that state mathmatical formula. The laws of thermodynamics exist within the theories of thermodynamics.

Second, your definition of the law is wrong:
The first law of thermodynamics says that the total quantity of energy in the universe remains constant. This is the principle of the conservation of energy. The second law of thermodynamics states that the quality of this energy is degraded irreversibly. This is the principle of the degradation of energy.

There are five laws, 1-4 and a zeroth law.

The earth is not the universe so the 2nd law does not apply except in closed systems. Energy comes from the sun, order is increased at a cost of energy, which is available from an outside source.

In other words, things left alone, tend to get disorderly and messy, degenerate.
This is nonsense. Left alone in the atmosphere water forms snowflakes, which are more ordered than liquid water. Plants grow from seeds and minerals into larger, more ordered plants. Cells organize, protiens organize, etc. The second law says NOTHING about order, it describes entropy which is not the same as disorder.

Why do I bring this up? Because for evolutionary theories to hold true, they would have to violate this law.
Your misuse of the law invalidates nothing. Entropy is a driving force of evolution, it is understood and recognized as a fundemental law within a theory of physical science just as evolution and its laws are recognized as a fundemental theory of biological science.

Why do creationists love to adopt (in this case wrongly) scientific theories that fit their worldview while refusing to accept theories that do not?
 
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Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
Normal Guy said:
Hey, if you guys are determined to believe in the Theory of Evolution that's fine...you are obviously free to do so, but why must you attack me for my belief in Creationism?
While I don't believe in creationism or a literal interpretation of the Bible, I have no problem with people believing in either of these. But I do have a problem when local school boards try to insert creationism into the science curriculum, because that constitutes "respecting an establishment of religion." I'm also bothered when some (not all) creationists argue that scientists and science are part of some deliberate conspiracy to undermine religion.

Science not only purifies the religious impulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contributes to a religious spiritualization of our understanding of life. -- Albert Einstein

I do not feel obliged to believe that same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect had intended for us to forgo their use.-- Galileo Galilei

My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. -- Albert Einstein

It has always puzzled me that so many religious people have taken it for granted that God favors those who believe in him. Isn't it possible that the actual God is a scientific God who has little patience with beliefs founded on faith rather than evidence?--Raymond Smullyan, 5000 B.C. and Other Philosophical Fantasies (1983)

The religion that is afraid of science dishonors God and commits suicide.--Ralph Waldo Emerson
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
tirdun said:
I'd ask if your theories of medicine are as Biblically-inspired? There are some treatments for leporasy in the Old Testament. Would you forego modern antibiotics for those theories?

LEV 14:2
"This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean , and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:"
The word is leprosy.

Your understanding of scripture is abhorrent. The passage you quote is the sacrifice that is to be done not a cure.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
tirdun said:
Evolution is observable and testable.

:twitch: That is simply asinine. You are labelling ancient myths as "modern science"?

Scientists have known the earth was round since Greece was the center of the known world. Ancient measurements were even fairly accurate. Galileo proposed the Heliocentric theory in the 1500's when the modern scientific method was in its infancy! Your E/W/F claim is ridiculous!
The word is labeling.
If evolution is provable, then prove it. No one has. You will be famous. The modern scientists of Galileo's day did not agree with him. The "modern" science of earlier times were proved wrong. "Modern" science becomes the outdated science of the future.
tirdun said:
These are not "assumptions". You are biasing your description. These are known rates of decay based on the theories of chemistry.
Do you read well? I said "assumptions of radioactive elements being at certain levels" which would change with open air testing and "known decay rates" although many of the decay rates have not been actually observed since the half-life is so long.


tirdun said:
Vastly incorrect and full of half-truths. Radiometric dating gives a "range" based on the known decay rates. While these dating techniques cannot give exact dates, they do give the lower end of how old something is, not the upper end. In other words, something dated is at LEAST so old, not a max.

Radiometric dating has also been verified against other dating systems, including ice-core, geological dating, coral reef dating, tree-ring dates, varve deposit dates and sediment deposit layers. These independently confirm an age of the earth of millions of years.
Much of the geological, coral reef dating, and other methods use circular reasoning. A geological or sediment layer is so old because it contains certain fossils but the fossils are so old because they are in a particular geological layer. Circular reasoning cannot be used to validate any method ... except in evolution.

tirdun said:
I would love to see information on how open-air detonations affect the dating of rocks and underground fossils. Further, these spread radioactive material, they did not change the way in which radiation and radioactive decay function.
Again, evidence that you are so blinded by your knee jerk reaction that you do not read well. Open air detonation did not change the amount of radioactive material of underground materials nor did I claim so. It changed the amount at the surface. In developing radioactive dating techniques, comparisons were made between the amount of a radioactive material of an item at the surface or "new" item and an item found below the surface or artifact. The contention is that if the amount of radioactivity at the surface was changed the comparison was invalid. If the basic premise is invalid, then any conclusions made from that premise are invalid. More plainly - garbage in, garbage out.

tirdun said:
He did not. Lady Hope reported this with no support while Darwin's daughter and contemporaries reported that he was firmly convinced.
I said it was not confirmed. Many evolutionists believed in the Piltdown man which was revealed to be a hoax, but evolutionists eagerly believed in the hoax for many years.
tirdun said:
You are proposing independent evolution of two species and having them then reproduce. This is a ridiculous strawman. Sexual reproduction is apparent in the simplest creatures, plants and insects. As for "why", because it helps to expand the potential genetics of the offspring. Its not a motivated decision, its a change based on the rules of evolution.
No I did not propose that. I said that for sexual reproduction to work both male and female of a species would have to evolve at the same place at the same time. Darwin raised this same question.

tirdun said:
Most modern religions accept evolution.
No they do not. This shows your lack of understanding of Christian Churches.
 
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2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
because that constitutes "respecting an establishment of religion."
You misunderstand the First Amendment.
Amendment I (1791)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
The First Amendment only limits Congresses power to make laws nothing more or less. It does not limit states or localities from doing so.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
2ndAmendment said:
The First Amendment only limits Congresses power to make laws nothing more or less. It does not limit states or localities from doing so.
While you have a point about the specific wording, I still think it's unhealthy for democracy for us to mix religious faith with patriotic feeling. How can the idea of religious freedom be reconciled with the idea of a state religion, even an unofficial one? I don't think those two ideas are compatible.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
While you have a point about the specific wording, I still think it's unhealthy for democracy for us to mix religious faith with patriotic feeling. How can the idea of religious freedom be reconciled with the idea of a state religion, even an unofficial one? I don't think those two ideas are compatible.
For instance, Maryland was a Catholic colony. Remember, many of the colonies were founded by one religion or another. Only Georgia was truly non religious because it was a penal colony.

I am just pointing out that most people don't really know what the Constitution says because they have never read it and the ones that know a little about it don't really understand the history behind it. Even the site Founders Constitution presents the framing history from a "point of view" not including the historical documents not conforming the the views of the creators of the site, the University of Chicago. Guess what direction they lean.

Do I think a state or locality should endorse a religion? No. But the First Amendment does not prevent them from doing so.

Also you should remember that creationism was the only position taught before the Scopes trial. Many assume that the Scopes trial proved evolution. It did not. It only said that it was OK to teach under the First Amendment freedom of speech clause. Now the position has come full circle where creationism has been excluded and is having to be fought for. I feel they both should be taught. The atheists and Christians will both have their prospectives and agnostics can learn both and chose or not chose.
 
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Normal Guy

New Member
I should have been more specific: The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church, The Evangelical Lutheran Synod, all reject macro-evolution. They are not alone, just the ones I can think of right now. Yes, there are some churches that have strayed from accepting the Bible as the inerrant word of God and have adopted evolutionary theory. It's a shame, but it's also a fallen world, so it's not unexpected.

FWIW The second law of thermodynamics (source: http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEner1.html)

"The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. ...[some examples].... In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die.

I happen to believe, and many evolutionists would agree, that the universe is a closed system.

Go outside tonight and light will hit you from distant stars. That light is millions or billions of years old. If the universe were 6000 years old, none of that light should have reached us yet.

I disagree with your assessment of the age of the universe, with your statements that the flood is impossible, and with your statements regarding the Tower of Babel, etc.. Personally, I believe that the God that is capable of creating the universe is also capable of providing enough water to flood a planet, and would certainly find a way to provide light to that planet in the form of a sun, moon, stars etc. I find it far more believable that this complex universe was designed rather than the product of an accident.

While I believe we could trade arguements about thermodynamics and evolutionary theory vs. creationism forever and not sway one another. Furthermore, most of this has already been hashed out by others in other venues, so I'll bow out now, and let you fella's continue the fun.

Andy

:peace:
 
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tirdun

staring into the abyss
2ndAmendment said:
If evolution is provable, then prove it. No one has.

Modern science is the application of the scientific principle to improve and refine the understood body of science. To demand that someone "prove" something within science is a misunderstanding of how science works. You cannot prove the atomic theory, but radiation, radioactivity and the resulting uses of those forces are still understood, measured and applied. And yet no one has "proven" atomic theory. The same applies to the theory of gravity, the theory of relativity or germ theroy.
You will be famous. The modern scientists of Galileo's day did not agree with him. The "modern" science of earlier times were proved wrong. "Modern" science becomes the outdated science of the future.
Galileo convinced many contemporary mathmeticians and scientists that he was right. He demonstrated his theory and was proven correct. Repression by the church prevented further study and dissemination of his theory.
Do you read well? I said "assumptions of radioactive elements being at certain levels" which would change with open air testing and "known decay rates" although many of the decay rates have not been actually observed since the half-life is so long.
I read just fine. You are attempting to discredit radiometric dating by claiming that atomic testing affects decay rates within rocks and fossils. Your claims are unfounded, unscientific and ignore the basics of how radioactive decay works, is tested and how it is affected by outside forces. Our inability to actually observe million year decay rates does not prevent us from accurately understanding them.
Much of the geological, coral reef dating, and other methods use circular reasoning. A geological or sediment layer is so old because it contains certain fossils but the fossils are so old because they are in a particular geological layer. Circular reasoning cannot be used to validate any method ... except in evolution.
This demonstrates outright and blatant ignorance of the facts. Coral reef dating is independent of any other dating system. Reefs are measured by growth rates of that particular species of coral. Those rates have nothing to do with geology, evolution or any other system. Varve deposits are measured by counting sedementary deposit layers. One layer per tide. These happen slowly and can be disturbed by sudden floods or other environmental factors. Where they exist, they show a clear timeline for hundreds of thousands of years. Geological dating is done by radiometric systems that are independent of evolution. Ice core dating is done by counting annual melts and re-freezes. This is independent of any other system.

You are refering, obliquely and wrongly, to "index fossils". These are fossils that are only found in certain layers of the geologic column because those fossils are formed by animals unique to a specific time. Because these animals exist nowhere else on the column, they are used to identify timelines for a block of the layer. These have been confirmed multiple times by other dating systems.

Again, evidence that you are so blinded by your knee jerk reaction that you do not read well.
And your insults and petty spell checks do not change the fact that you are wrong. There is no evidece for a young earth, no evidence for a young universe and an extraordinary amount of evidence for an ancient one.
Open air detonation did not change the amount of radioactive material of underground materials nor did I claim so. It changed the amount at the surface.
Which has nothing to do with radiometric dating and so I must ask why you bother to mention this.
In developing radioactive dating techniques, comparisons were made between the amount of a radioactive material of an item at the surface or "new" item and an item found below the surface or artifact. The contention is that if the amount of radioactivity at the surface was changed the comparison was invalid. If the basic premise is invalid, then any conclusions made from that premise are invalid. More plainly - garbage in, garbage out.
This makes no sense from any reading, regardless of my ability to read. Your understanding of radiometric dating is ridiculous. "New" items are not used to compare anything. Each system of radiometric dating relies on a range of decay of certain isotopes. If the item is too new or too old to be measured, the system will simply not work. You do not zero a radiometric dating system like some deli scale.
I said it was not confirmed. Many evolutionists believed in the Piltdown man which was revealed to be a hoax, but evolutionists eagerly believed in the hoax for many years.
Piltdown man was exposed as a hoax by scientists using scientific methods. It does not support any of your arguments.
No I did not propose that. I said that for sexual reproduction to work both male and female of a species would have to evolve at the same place at the same time. Darwin raised this same question.
There has been extensive research into reproduction. Single celled, asexual reproduction occurs between two creatures who exchange genetic information. This is a simple system of increasing genetic diversity. Evolved forms of this would produce a two-sex system.
No they do not. This shows your lack of understanding of Christian Churches.
I've already posted a list of Christian churches that accept evolution.
 

tirdun

staring into the abyss
I happen to believe, and many evolutionists would agree, that the universe is a closed system.
Entropy demands that order increase at a cost of energy. The Earth gets energy from the sun, thus order increases through energy taken from a source outside the system.

Entropy is also not a one-way street. Order can increase within a closed system so long as the total level of useful energy decreases.

Personally, I believe that the God that is capable of creating the universe is also capable of providing enough water to flood a planet, and would certainly find a way to provide light to that planet in the form of a sun, moon, stars etc. I find it far more believable that this complex universe was designed rather than the product of an accident.

Its also possible that God created us last Thusday and implanted us with memories and set up evidence of an ancient universe to confuse/test us. It casts God into the role of trickster and liar, a position I reject utterly. If we are blessed with the intellect and curiosity to demand answers of his creation, then I believe we must search and accept the answers we find.

Saint Augustine:
"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world ... Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn."

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
tirdun,
You are the epitome of:
2 Tim 3:2-5
2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.
and
Romans 1:18-32
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
and I will have nothing further to do with you. You come into the Religion forum to destroy not build. My God have mercy on you.
 
H

HollowSoul

Guest
so what you are saying is.....if someone question's....then they are destroying?
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
HollowSoul said:
so what you are saying is.....if someone question's....then they are destroying?
tirdun does not question. He mocks faith and God. He quotes the Bible but distorts the meaning of what he quotes. Satan knows he Bible by heart and can quote every verse and pervert each. If your board name is true of your character, I have sorry for you.
 
H

HollowSoul

Guest
2ndAmendment said:
tirdun does not question. He mocks faith and God. He quotes the Bible but distorts the meaning of what he quotes. Satan knows he Bible by heart and can quote every verse and pervert each. If your board name is true of your character, I have sorry for you.
please dont feel sorry for me...i have my own demons/questions, we all do.
freedom of religon should also include the right not to have one
 

Toxick

Splat
tirdun said:
To demand that someone "prove" something within science is a misunderstanding of how science works.


Ironically enough, those who wish to reject religion oftentimes do so because of a lack of proof (not lack of evidence - a lack of PROOF) that God exists. Then continue to cite science as the empirical end-all be-all.


And now, if I read you correctly, you're saying that demanding proof of something is unreasonable.




Am I to believe that you are saying your belief in evolution based on blind faith?
 

Toxick

Splat
HollowSoul said:
so what you are saying is.....if someone question's....then they are destroying?


It seems to me that 2ndAmen simply asked for conclusive proof of evolution.

Much like people often come in here and demand proof of the existence of God.



Apparently faith in science is good and faith in God is bad.
 
H

HollowSoul

Guest
Toxick said:
It seems to me that 2ndAmen simply asked for conclusive proof of evolution.

Much like people often come in here and demand proof of the existence of God.



Apparently faith in science is good and faith in God is bad.
no...i don't think believing in god is bad......in my opinion,all that is important is that you believe in something.
true..science does explain alot of things..and also leaves alot of gaps. for example..some believe that we came from monkeys, that we as humans evolved, and if that is true..then why are there still monkeys.
 
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