Absolutely, so feel free not to come into Religion if you don't have one or are not actively seeking one. Thank you in advance.HollowSoul said:
How does this apply to you and your religion? Just curious.
- Thread starter UrbanPancake
- Start date
By the way, it that you kneeling before the toilet "god"?
H
HollowSoul
Guest
so...according to your attitude...since i dont believe...then i shouldn't be heard..."this is another reason i don't believe"...evedently since i'm godless my voice will never be heard....i would thing that someone who believes in god should have the patience and understanding to listen.....but i guess your heart and mind are both closed....2ndAmendment said:
Toxick
Splat
HollowSoul said:
Ok, not you personally, but there are a lot of people who live to annoy, flabbergast, and impugn anyone with religious beliefs (particularly christians).
HollowSoul said:
Well, I happen to believe in evolution. (I see no reason, religious or scientific, that says that God can't use evolution as a tool to create humanity and handily create all living creatures in the process). There's simply too much evidence of it to not believe in it - unless you simply dismiss the evidence out of hand as "the devil's work".
Even if there are gaps. You can literally look at the bones that have been dug up and watch the process with your own eyes.
The reason there are still monkeys is that the process of evolution is not linear, nor is it a zero sum game.
No. Not the way I believe at all. I was pointing out that you have the right to be free from religion and since this is the Religion forum you have the right to be free from it too. If you genuinely want to have meaningful discussion with real questions and answers, then by all means, I will try to answer to the best of the ability the Holy Spirit gives me. If you are in here just to cause discord because of your lack of faith, then I wish you would go.HollowSoul said:
tirdun
staring into the abyss
2ndAmendment said:
You may label me the fool all you wish but Young Earth Creationism is the modern equivalent of Flat Earthism. Your ignorance or denial of science will not change it. Refuse to believe the theory of electromagnetics all you wish and see if your computer monitor shuts off.
The simple fact is that evolution is an observable and testable process. The theory of evolution may be incomplete in places but the whole of it defines something that must have happened. The geologic and fossil record are crystal clear. Populations of animals changed over time. Clear "missing links" exist in the horse and whale families, for example, that refute any flood theory.
Your argument stood on attacks on early science, spotlighting a scientific mistake and an attempt to change the rules of radioactive decay. You have now degenerated in attacks on my religious beliefs, of which you know nothing, and name calling. You may ignore me all you wish, my faith stands firm regardless of science and history, not despite them.
As for why come into the Religion board to discuss this: its where the original post was placed. I am not trying to argue science=good faith=bad. Science describes the world in which we live, it cannot describe or define God. Faith ecompasses that which is beyond science. It is measured by its tenets and the acts of its adherents. Both can be turned to good or evil.
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tirdun,
If you have faith, what is it in? If you believe in salvation, what makes that part of the Bible truth and the scriptures on creation false? In time, we will both know for sure. I may be wrong, but as I see it, there are no consequences except being foolish in your eyes and those like you. Do I care what you or others like you think of me? No. If you, on the other hand, are wrong, well, you decide.
I have studied chemistry, physics, higher math, biology including evolution theory, and I work in a highly technical field. I have studied the pros and cons of evolution. I went through an agnostic period where I actually bought into evolution. I considered the question further including Einstein's thought that energy can not be destroyed. Life being energy, Einstein believed it cannot be destroyed; I believe that too. I also considered the the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the big bang theory, and other scientific evidence that creation was not correct. Having studied explosions in free space or a near vacuum, the observed distribution of matter in the universe does not support the big bang theory. That is the reason for the search for dark matter. Considering all these scientific evidences, I found that evolution required as much faith as believing God's word and evolution held none of the promises and there are severe consequences for not believing God. Being logical in my thought process, I found that the benefits of believing God's word far outweighed those of believing in evolution. I took a leap of faith.
After I had made my decision to read God's word and to seek Him, I developed a prayer life and a personal relationship with Him. You probably think this is delusional, so be it. After a period of years seeking Him, I was given the gifts of tongues, translation of tongues, and prophesy. These gifts are not at my direction but at His. These gifts do not make me better than others, but they do serve as a sign to me and to other believers. Believe me or not, it has no bearing on me.
Since I have been through the process of considering the scientific evidence and God's word and have chosen God's word, I do not find your posts beneficial or informative. I have been there and done that. If at some time, you really have an inquiring mind instead of a scientifically closed one, I will be glad to discuss things with you. If you are in the area, I will be happy for you to go to church with me to observe the Holy Spirit as He works in our congregation. Until that time, please leave me to my "ignorance" and I will leave you to yours.
If you have faith, what is it in? If you believe in salvation, what makes that part of the Bible truth and the scriptures on creation false? In time, we will both know for sure. I may be wrong, but as I see it, there are no consequences except being foolish in your eyes and those like you. Do I care what you or others like you think of me? No. If you, on the other hand, are wrong, well, you decide.
I have studied chemistry, physics, higher math, biology including evolution theory, and I work in a highly technical field. I have studied the pros and cons of evolution. I went through an agnostic period where I actually bought into evolution. I considered the question further including Einstein's thought that energy can not be destroyed. Life being energy, Einstein believed it cannot be destroyed; I believe that too. I also considered the the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the big bang theory, and other scientific evidence that creation was not correct. Having studied explosions in free space or a near vacuum, the observed distribution of matter in the universe does not support the big bang theory. That is the reason for the search for dark matter. Considering all these scientific evidences, I found that evolution required as much faith as believing God's word and evolution held none of the promises and there are severe consequences for not believing God. Being logical in my thought process, I found that the benefits of believing God's word far outweighed those of believing in evolution. I took a leap of faith.
After I had made my decision to read God's word and to seek Him, I developed a prayer life and a personal relationship with Him. You probably think this is delusional, so be it. After a period of years seeking Him, I was given the gifts of tongues, translation of tongues, and prophesy. These gifts are not at my direction but at His. These gifts do not make me better than others, but they do serve as a sign to me and to other believers. Believe me or not, it has no bearing on me.
Since I have been through the process of considering the scientific evidence and God's word and have chosen God's word, I do not find your posts beneficial or informative. I have been there and done that. If at some time, you really have an inquiring mind instead of a scientifically closed one, I will be glad to discuss things with you. If you are in the area, I will be happy for you to go to church with me to observe the Holy Spirit as He works in our congregation. Until that time, please leave me to my "ignorance" and I will leave you to yours.
C
czygvtwkr
Guest
Not going to get into a religious discussion here but I just wanted to say that the 2md law of Thermodynamics is being misused and misinterpreted here.
The layman's version of the 2nd law basically states that you can not have a thermodynamic system with more than 100% efficiency and helps explain why you never really achieve 100% efficiency, even if you do eliminate all energy losses.
The layman's version of the 2nd law basically states that you can not have a thermodynamic system with more than 100% efficiency and helps explain why you never really achieve 100% efficiency, even if you do eliminate all energy losses.
SmallTown
Football season!
I will apologize at first. I have not read this entire thread, only the last couple of pages. So if these ideas have already been covered, I apologize.
It is clear to just about anyone that evolution occurs. People only disagree about which items we have as a result of evolution. I personally don't see why people do not think evolution and God can exist together. I feel that God created the process, and lets itself work out on whichever way it does.
Did we come from Monkeys? I have no idea. Based on looks and intelligence, there is a huge difference. But people will argue that there is no way Einstein and Shaq came from the same line. So obviously evolution occurs, since evolution in its most basic terms is just a change over time.
One big issue some Christians have regarding evolution is the fact we, as humans, can reproduce and mimic evolution. They feel that if we can easily manipulate this process ourselves, it is impossible that evolution was created by God. I don't feel this is the case, since the greatest thing God has given us, life, can be manipulated by doctors and medicine and has been for quite some time.
But to the topic of creationism vs evolution, I feel the two go hand-in-hand. As for the timeframe of creationism. This is a tough issue since many these days do not buy into the "6000 year" or "10000 year" notion, at least as it is defined in modern times. We assume by these statements that God works within the same context of time as we do here on earth. At the point of creation (term used as the vague starting point, be it the "big bang" or adam and eve) time as we know it did not exist. Time as we know it today is a human entity. We created the notion of time as a reference point. Without a person at the beginning to define "time", time at the "beginning" of creation can not be clearly defined. That notion, and the idea that God operates outside of the human perception of time, 6 days of creation could have been 6 days as we know it now, or 1 million days
It is clear to just about anyone that evolution occurs. People only disagree about which items we have as a result of evolution. I personally don't see why people do not think evolution and God can exist together. I feel that God created the process, and lets itself work out on whichever way it does.
Did we come from Monkeys? I have no idea. Based on looks and intelligence, there is a huge difference. But people will argue that there is no way Einstein and Shaq came from the same line. So obviously evolution occurs, since evolution in its most basic terms is just a change over time.
One big issue some Christians have regarding evolution is the fact we, as humans, can reproduce and mimic evolution. They feel that if we can easily manipulate this process ourselves, it is impossible that evolution was created by God. I don't feel this is the case, since the greatest thing God has given us, life, can be manipulated by doctors and medicine and has been for quite some time.
But to the topic of creationism vs evolution, I feel the two go hand-in-hand. As for the timeframe of creationism. This is a tough issue since many these days do not buy into the "6000 year" or "10000 year" notion, at least as it is defined in modern times. We assume by these statements that God works within the same context of time as we do here on earth. At the point of creation (term used as the vague starting point, be it the "big bang" or adam and eve) time as we know it did not exist. Time as we know it today is a human entity. We created the notion of time as a reference point. Without a person at the beginning to define "time", time at the "beginning" of creation can not be clearly defined. That notion, and the idea that God operates outside of the human perception of time, 6 days of creation could have been 6 days as we know it now, or 1 million days
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
Interesting viewpoint. I think creationists butt heads so much with science because they insist that the Bible is literally true. I don't believe that. I believe the creation stories in Genesis are metaphors, like the creation stories in Greek mythology. I've written before about my belief that the "tree of life" and the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" are symbols of humankind developing sentience.SmallTown said:
I think the problem is that many (not all) creationists, like other zealots, insist that what they believe is the absolute truth for the entire universe and the entire human race. That's the problem with all zealotry and all orthodoxy. None of us has a monopoly on truth, and when people insist that they have such a monopoly, it comes across as arrogance and egotism.
As you probably can tell, I'm on the evolutionist side of the argument. But I don't believe that we will ever know everything that happened millions of years ago. In fact, I believe it's "testing God" to claim that scientific evidence supports God's existence or Biblical events such as the missing day of Joshua: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul4.htm and http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm
I choose to believe the Bible. Guess by other's standards I am just stupid. I would rather be stupid for God than a fool for man. The Bible calls us to childlike faith. A child does not question but believes. I certainly admit that I do not have all the answers. The Bible even tells us this.
Now there is an interesting thought. If the universe has a beginning and an end (is bounded) and God states that He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, then God must be the bounds of the universe. That surely brings new meaning the smallness of man compared to God and also the importance of man in God's kingdom since He created us to fellowship with Him. Quite a dichotomy of thought.
But I will leave you to your intellect and I will pursue the Spirit of the Almighty and His will for my life. I have stated several times that we all have free will. I believe the ultimate test of this earthly period of life is, in our freedom to choose any path, choosing to love and follow God. Time will tell. Each of us has a lifetime on this earth. At the conclusion of that time, we will either end entirely as some believe or go on to either eternal life and fellowship with our Creator or to eternal separation from God and torment. Being a childlike seeker of God does not have any eternal downside and has the possibility of the ultimate upside. Choosing any other path has the possibility of the ultimate downside. If life just ceases, then neither believer or non-believer has lost, but it is the gamble of eternity for a non-believer.
I am not here to discuss thermodynamics, adiabatic processes, closed systems, or open systems. I would recall that my thermodynamics professor thought that the universe is a closed system implying that it has bounds or beginning and end and would eventually wind down like a clock.
Now there is an interesting thought. If the universe has a beginning and an end (is bounded) and God states that He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, then God must be the bounds of the universe. That surely brings new meaning the smallness of man compared to God and also the importance of man in God's kingdom since He created us to fellowship with Him. Quite a dichotomy of thought.
But I will leave you to your intellect and I will pursue the Spirit of the Almighty and His will for my life. I have stated several times that we all have free will. I believe the ultimate test of this earthly period of life is, in our freedom to choose any path, choosing to love and follow God. Time will tell. Each of us has a lifetime on this earth. At the conclusion of that time, we will either end entirely as some believe or go on to either eternal life and fellowship with our Creator or to eternal separation from God and torment. Being a childlike seeker of God does not have any eternal downside and has the possibility of the ultimate upside. Choosing any other path has the possibility of the ultimate downside. If life just ceases, then neither believer or non-believer has lost, but it is the gamble of eternity for a non-believer.
As an addendum, I will be happy to share what God has done for me and my experiences with Y'shua and the Holy Spirit. God grant us all the wisdom to seek Him, love Him, obey Him, and do things His way.
Aimhigh2000
New Member
Religion
Well, for me, I have found nothing that can convince me of a God or anything of that sort. I have read the bible, and there are just to many inconsistancies for me to believe it. I can believe that the Earth has evolved over millions of years. I can see it, feel it, touch it, and examine it. I have not seen anyone walk on water, nor do I think I will. I am not against religion at all, I think that it serves as a comfort to those that believe in it. My whole disgust with religion is how people use it to enact laws, or use it for personal gain. (Televangelists for one.) I have said before that religion belongs in a persons life, home and church. As long as it stays out of my government, I am fine with it. I do think that the theory of evolution is easier to accept and comprehend, I don't believe that everything was made in seven days.
Well, for me, I have found nothing that can convince me of a God or anything of that sort. I have read the bible, and there are just to many inconsistancies for me to believe it. I can believe that the Earth has evolved over millions of years. I can see it, feel it, touch it, and examine it. I have not seen anyone walk on water, nor do I think I will. I am not against religion at all, I think that it serves as a comfort to those that believe in it. My whole disgust with religion is how people use it to enact laws, or use it for personal gain. (Televangelists for one.) I have said before that religion belongs in a persons life, home and church. As long as it stays out of my government, I am fine with it. I do think that the theory of evolution is easier to accept and comprehend, I don't believe that everything was made in seven days.
That is your free will to believe or not. I have never found any inconsistencies in the Bible. Passages taken out of context can be used to say there are inconsistencies; in context the inconsistencies are not there.Aimhigh2000 said:Well, for me, I have found nothing that can convince me of a God or anything of that sort. I have read the bible, and there are just to many inconsistancies for me to believe it. I can believe that the Earth has evolved over millions of years. I can see it, feel it, touch it, and examine it. I have not seen anyone walk on water, nor do I think I will. I am not against religion at all, I think that it serves as a comfort to those that believe in it. My whole disgust with religion is how people use it to enact laws, or use it for personal gain. (Televangelists for one.) I have said before that religion belongs in a persons life, home and church. As long as it stays out of my government, I am fine with it. I do think that the theory of evolution is easier to accept and comprehend, I don't believe that everything was made in seven days.
Whether you like it or not, every law man has has grown out of a religious/moral belief. "You shall not murder." comes to mind as an easy example. OK. Let's do away with all laws based on that. Scott Peterson goes free. People that hate homosexuals are free to kill them, because there is no law based on religion. Anyone is free to kill anyone. "You shall not steal." has a whole set of permutations, too. See. You are stuck with them.
Many choose not to believe in God or choose to believe in their own version of god instead of how God presents Himself because of their own favorite sin. Homosexuality, theft, adultery, greed, there is an extensive list. No God; no consequences. Isn't that easy. But my contention is that it is very risky gamble for non-believers.
I am afraid that some may have gotten the idea that I love God out of strictly logical reasoning. I have presented pros and cons and think the pros far outweigh the cons. But I love God because He is real. I experience a day to day relationship with Him. Sometimes, I choose to walk my own path and I have consequences because of that decision, but I endeavor to walk more closely with Him every day. I am not perfect. but I am striving to Christ like perfection. It cannot happen in my ability nor do I believe perfection can be accomplished by me in this earthly life. My perfecting will be by God's power and grace in His perfect time. As I cross from this world to His kingdom, I will be perfected in a instant.
I believe in micro evolution or survival of the fittest, except humans, but I find macro evolution very hard to believe. I did believe in macro evolution at one point in my life because it was easier to put God aside and pursue my favorite sins.
By the way, it was 6 days. God rested on the seventh.
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
2nd, I hope you're not suggesting that it's a sin to believe in evolution. That would almost be like what the crackpots who run Bob Jones University suggest:2ndAmendment said:
http://www.bju.edu/aboutbju/special_articles/response/index
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
No offense, but that's exactly what bugs me about any kind of evangelism, Christian or otherwise. My religious beliefs apply only to me, not to anyone else in the world. I don't expect or demand that everyone else believe what I believe, mostly because I think it's rude to define or label other people. For one thing, I believe that it's deeply hateful to tell someone that he or she is destined for eternal damnation. But also, I have no right to tell strangers how to live.2ndAmendment said:
I don't think I said that. I don't decide what is sin and what is not. That is not my job. God does that. I will say that anything that takes the place of God is a sin because He told us so.Tonio said:
Each person must make up their own mind as to what evolution means to them and make their own reconciliation with God.
Tonio
Asperger's Poster Child
Good reply, but I don't think you get my point. My beliefs about sin and judgment apply only to myself. I have no right to apply my beliefs to other people, even if I wanted to tell them to live their lives differently. No one's beliefs about right and wrong apply to the entire human race.2ndAmendment said:
Christians see this differently. We are instructed to spread the word.Tonio said:
It is not my job to convince, coerce, or strong arm someone to believe. It is my job to spread the Gospel. I am a "seed sower".
Quite frankly, God, the Bible, and Christians are offensive to non-believers.
Recently, I was told that Canada passed a law that makes it a crime to speak against homosexuality. Under that law, a minister reading from the Bible the passages against homosexuality becomes guilty of a crime. I am convinced that this will take place worldwide eventually. Christianity will be against the law. It is all part of the prophesy of the last days.