Hypothetical Gun Control Debate

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Playing off the non-lethal reducing crime angle lets make some reasonable assumptions. Ninety percent of the violent crime is probably committed by less that one tenth of one percent of the population. If you knock the criminal down and he lives for another day, then the odds are some judge is going to let him off with a slap on the wrist or he gets convicted and is out on probation with no time served or 3 to 5. Anyway, he is back on the street. You kill him. You stop his crime wave. He will not repeat offend. The crime rate drops. This is a good argument for CCW and probably one reason the crime rate drops drastically in the first couple of years in states where CCW is allowed. There are 35 "shall issue" CCW states.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
I love guns, but the problem I see is how do you prevent people from making lethal ammunition? Anyone can pack a shotgun shell although I wouldn't advise it.
 

Pushrod

Patriot
Its a mute point.
"The Second Amendment is a recognition of the danger of standing armies. Its purpose is to recognize that every citizen has the right to keep and bear the same type of basic arms as a soldier in a modern military. A militia embodies all able-bodied men over the age of sixteen. Therefore, a militia will always outnumber a standing army by at least twenty to one. If this militia is armed with weapons similar to those used by the individuals comprising the standing army, it will be impossible for that standing army to inflict the will of a tyrannical government upon the people. The Second Amendment is the guarantee that citizens in the United States will remain free."

Quoted from our Founding Fathers.
 

ylexot

Super Genius
Pushrod said:
Quoted from our Founding Fathers.
No it isn't. It's a quote from John Ross, "Unintended Consequences". St. Louis: Accurate Press, 1996

I'm pro 2nd Amend, but I don't like incorrectly assigned quotes. Incorrectly claiming a quote from the Founding Fathers hurts your point when it is found out (this one was easy...the language is waaaay too modern). Didn't Dan Rather have a similar problem? :confused:
 

Pushrod

Patriot
Ylexot, sorry my wrong assumption. The quote was sent to me a while back by a friend with the instructions to "always remember this". I just assumed it was a quote from one of the founding fathers.
I'm having trouble getting my foot out of my mouth now, let me go see if I can find some lubricant!!
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Forgive the length, but I am suffering the effects of Nyquil and just got into a flow

Non-lethal bullets? Sounds like another "better idea" by those that want to further erode the explicit rights enumerated by the Second Amendment and empower the criminal element to operate without fear of meeting a victim capable of defending themselves through the use of deadly force. I see this concept as being a lot like Maryland’s built in smart-locks. You know the ones that hinder a person when they need a weapon immediately and gives the criminal (that doesn’t care about any of our laws anyway) that extra moment or two to succeed in what it is they are doing, namely killing or maiming the victim.

I see this as just a feel good idea that should stay in the entertainment world and not be exposed to real life.

Now let’s take a look at the remainder of the discussion. There are basically two theories concerning the intent of the Second Amendment, the first being that it is an absolute right of the individual to keep and bear arms (unless by criminal act they have been barred) and the second is that it is a right of the state to have available a ready and armed force to combat tyranny suffered at the hands of the national government. The later explanation has received more activity from the courts as the following excerpt shows, but is it the correct view that the courts have latched on to.

In Cases v. United States, 131 F. 2d 916, 922 (1st Cir. 1942), cert. denied, 319 U.S. 770 (1943), the court, upholding a similar provision of the Federal Firearms Act, said: ``Apparently, then, under the Second Amendment, the federal government can limit the keeping and bearing of arms by a single individual as well as by a group of individuals, but it cannot prohibit the possession or use of any weapon which has any reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia.'' See Lewis v. United States, 445 U.S. 55, 65 n.8 (1980) (dictum: Miller holds that the ``Second Amendment guarantees no right to keep and bear a firearm that does not have `some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia''').

If one takes the Bill of Rights as they were offered, meaning an entity enumerating rights retained specifically by the people (and for many it was as a condition prior to ratification of the Constitution), then the right to keep and bear arms is obviously one that belongs to the individual. The fact that it has the added benefit to the states of providing armed citizens for a militia should one be needed makes it an even greater argument in favor of the individual, in my mind, as the intent was for them to show up armed and able if ever called to service.

I think that the courts have been skewed in their thinking that it is more of a state’s right. I think that what the courts have been missing is that the Bill of Rights are all declaratory as to what the Federal Government cannot do to the people and the protections that the people have from that government, it is not what the states can or cannot do with or to their citizens.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
"In England the cops don't have a gun, and you don't have a gun. So if you get chased by the cops there they'll say 'STOP! or I'll say STOP again...' -Robin Williams
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
SmallTown said:
"In England the cops don't have a gun, and you don't have a gun. So if you get chased by the cops there they'll say 'STOP! or I'll say STOP again...' -Robin Williams
:yeahthat: :killingme
 

willie

Well-Known Member
Quote:It was considered breakthrough, because now, there was no need to kill anyone. Gun control proponents were ecstatic, and gun control opponents were split on the issue of banning all guns that use lethal bullets.
Split? Maybe in your dreams.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Pushrod said:
Ylexot, sorry my wrong assumption. The quote was sent to me a while back by a friend with the instructions to "always remember this". I just assumed it was a quote from one of the founding fathers.
I'm having trouble getting my foot out of my mouth now, let me go see if I can find some lubricant!!
Some lubricant. Not exactly what you posted, but it is from one of the founders.

"The highest number to which a standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one hundredth part of the souls, or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This portion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Besides the advantage of being armed, it forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. The governments of Europe are afraid to trust the people with arms. If they did, the people would surely shake off the yoke of tyranny, as America did. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors." - James Madison, Federalist No. 46, The Influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared, From the New York Packet.
Tuesday, January 29, 1788.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Ken King said:
I think that the courts have been skewed in their thinking that it is more of a state’s right. I think that what the courts have been missing is that the Bill of Rights are all declaratory as to what the Federal Government cannot do to the people and the protections that the people have from that government, it is not what the states can or cannot do with or to their citizens.
Beyond that, the states are missing that since the U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, the right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed at the state and local level as well.
 

Vince

......
All this stuff about non-lethal bullets is :bs: And taking guns away from the honest, law abiding citizen is the same :bs: because that's all this law and others like it are going to do. These idiots making these gun laws need to get a brain. They take all the guns away from the honest citizen and the criminals will still have theirs. GET a clue. Now they want to take the guns that we use for hunting, target shooting, home defense, etc. When is the light going to come on for these morons.
 

California_bred

Nordic Princess
vraiblonde said:
That's what I find so hysterical about these gun-banning nuts and their non-lethal bullet "solution". So we give the cops, our protectors, non-lethal bullets...but the criminals, our protectors, can still get lethal bullets. DUR!! What kind of sense does that make?

The criminals want to create fear and kill while the law enforcement officers want to protect themselves, protect others or just stop the criminal. So the police do not really need lethal bullets. Do they? just MHO. Often it's nice for the law enforcement officers to have someone alive to question.
 
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Vince

......
California_bred said:
The criminals want to create fear and kill while the law enforcement officers want to protect themselves, protect others or just stop the criminal. So the police do not really need lethal bullets. Do they? just MHO. Often it's nice for the law enforcement officers to have someone alive to question.
Yes, I think the police should have lethal bullets. Why not? The criminal is shooting and killing with his lethal bullets and the police shooting with non-lethal. So the criminal gets to kill a few dozen people before the police stop him with non-lethal bullets. Then the criminal gets the benefit of our wonderful judicial system, in which he will probably get life in prison or a death sentence that will be commuted about 50 times. If he ever makes it to lethal injection or whatever, he's lived another 10 years. What about the people he killed? They didn't get to live those 10 years. Point being, give the cops lethal bullets. Save the taxpayers the dayum money on a trial, etc.
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
Vince said:
Yes, I think the police should have lethal bullets. Why not? The criminal is shooting and killing with his lethal bullets and the police shooting with non-lethal. So the criminal gets to kill a few dozen people before the police stop him with non-lethal bullets. Then the criminal gets the benefit of our wonderful judicial system, in which he will probably get life in prison or a death sentence that will be commuted about 50 times. If he ever makes it to lethal injection or whatever, he's lived another 10 years. What about the people he killed? They didn't get to live those 10 years. Point being, give the cops lethal bullets. Save the taxpayers the dayum money on a trial, etc.
One could make the point though... that police officers would have more freedom to shoot at a criminal without the fear of hitting civilians, hitting the criminal sooner rather than later, thus reducing the chance of civilians being killed by gunfire.

If a civilian gets hit by a non-lethal bullet, it's a big inconvenience... but he's not dead. :shrug:

Of course, by the time the lawyers get done with it, we'd have no police departments left with all the suing that would ensue.
 

willie

Well-Known Member
Another concern with non lethal bullets for the cops is the same as relying on a Taser. Sometimes it doesn't stop the bad guy so now we have an unarmed cop.
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
willie said:
Another concern with non lethal bullets for the cops is the same as relying on a Taser. Sometimes it doesn't stop the bad guy so now we have an unarmed cop.
This is hypothetical.
The idea is that these bullets would paralyze the victim instantly for up to an hour. Assume that the failure rate is negligible.
 
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