Iceland's Hydrogen Buses Zip to Oil-Free Economy

[mAlice]

I started to post bits and pieces of the article, but the whole damn thing was interesting.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...&u=/nm/20050112/sc_nm/environment_hydrogen_dc

 

[vraiblonde]

Let's think about an "oil-free economy" for a minute and "reducing our dependency on foreign oil". If the world moves toward that, what are the Arab states going to do for a living? Because, frankly, that's all they've got and if we take it away, their economies will go in the crapper and it will become a global crisis.

Then, instead of pissing and moaning about oil and pollution, the liberals will be pissing and moaning about starving Arabs.

 

[SamSpade]

Let's think about an "oil-free economy" for a minute and "reducing our dependency on foreign oil". If the world moves toward that, what are the Arab states going to do for a living? Because, frankly, that's all they've got and if we take it away, their economies will go in the crapper and it will become a global crisis.

Then, instead of pissing and moaning about oil and pollution, the liberals will be pissing and moaning about starving Arabs.

It'll be a while. The biggest drawback to hydrogen is, you can't just dig it out of the ground, refine it, and stick it into a barrel (unless you get it out of natural gas) -- you have to burn fossil fuels *to MAKE IT*. (The article itself also refers to this). You actually make MORE pollution *making* hydrogen than just using the equivalent fossil fuel it replaces.

So while everyone feels good about the 'water vapor' and how clean it is, the sad truth is, it's actually making things worse (until we figure out a way to make hydrogen without consuming some OTHER polluting form of energy - say, geothermal, hydroelectric or solar).

You can just BET that if George Bush does go full guns into hydrogen, these unmentioned factoids will 'suddenly' become relevant.

 

[Mikeinsmd]

Then, instead of pissing and moaning about oil and pollution, the liberals will be pissing and moaning about starving Arabs.

LET EM STARVE~!!!!!!

 

[mAlice]

I don't think 'oil free' is the answer, but a reduction in burning fossil fuel would be a step in the right direction, provided they can find a way to make it without making the pollution situation worse. I'm sure it's a fantasy, but what if the dump trucks, semi-trucks, things of this nature were required to use hydrogen fuel? What if purchasing a personal vehicle that burned hyrdrogen fuel became an option, like the hybrids? A little creativity could go along way.

 

[kwillia]

Since I was a kid in middle school I have always been bent that we never went the route of perfecting ethenol as a fuel substance. To me, it was the perfect solution because we would make the US farming industry wealthy and we wouldn't be dependent on foreign fuel.

 

[vraiblonde]

what if the dump trucks, semi-trucks, things of this nature were required to use hydrogen fuel?

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

Sorry - what were we talking about? Oh yeah...

Things always sound good in theory but break down in unintended consequences. If they could make a hydrogen fuel that didn't pollute as bad as oil, and didn't put countries and companies out of business, and was cheap, and could effectively power a V8 engine in an SUV or semi, I might be more interested.

Musing:

Larry's aunt and uncle have this little hybrid POS with no spunk. It doesn't accelerate worth a damn and is a wee tiny little thing. Every time I see one of those things out and about, I get this wild urge to run 'em off the road and say, "How do ya like me now, hippie???" just to show them how unsafe their vehicle is.

 

[SamSpade]

Since I was a kid in middle school I have always been bent that we never went the route of perfecting ethenol as a fuel substance. To me, it was the perfect solution because we would make the US farming industry wealthy and we wouldn't be dependent on foreign fuel.

My (limited) understanding is that ethanol suffers from any number of things (besides a good means of distribution). I'm pretty sure the two big ones are that it does not burn entirely "clean" (inasmuch as it produces so much gunk that, over time, you'd pretty much have to ditch your car altogether) and that, muscle for muscle, you'd pay as much or more for it while at the same time requiring a much larger gas tank just to get the energy from the equivalent amount of gasoline.

I've generally wondered why we don't use some other means of *generating* a fuel as good as gasoline, using some 'clean' technology. Or at least, find a way to make *coal* a lot cleaner, for electricity production (much of our electricity is already produced by fossil fuels). That, at least, would reduce the dependence of the nation, as a whole - we have centuries' worth of coal in this country.

 

[sleuth]

Since I was a kid in middle school I have always been bent that we never went the route of perfecting ethenol as a fuel substance. To me, it was the perfect solution because we would make the US farming industry wealthy and we wouldn't be dependent on foreign fuel.

 

[SeaRide]

Things always sound good in theory but break down in unintended consequences. If they could make a hydrogen fuel that didn't pollute as bad as oil, and didn't put countries and companies out of business, and was cheap, and could effectively power a V8 engine in an SUV or semi, I might be more interested.

What about the Hummer H2H? Let me google it up and post it here.

 

[SeaRide]

Too many to choose just one so check it out.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=hummer+h2h+hydrogen


<img src="http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/10/23/schwartz.jpg">

 

[vraiblonde]

What about the Hummer H2H?

I'd be curious how the performance is affected, if at all.

I'm not excited about oil. It's natural - comes from the earth. All it needs man for is to refine it and voila! You got yourself some energy. So wouldn't you think that the byproduct of oil would be natural as well?

Trees give off some serious chemicals that exacerbate air pollution, but nobody wants to eliminate them. :shrug:

 

[Ponytail]

I'd be curious how the performance is affected, if at all.

I'm not excited about oil. It's natural - comes from the earth. All it needs man for is to refine it and voila! You got yourself some energy. So wouldn't you think that the byproduct of oil would be natural as well?

Trees give off some serious chemicals that exacerbate air pollution, but nobody wants to eliminate them. :shrug:

My co-worker up here and I have been looking into alternative fuels. He got a really good book on it for Christmas. I've been looking at this kit for myslef...http://www.biodieselwarehouse.com/index.html

It takes USED cooking oil that you can get from any fast food/fish fry restaurant and make your own bio-diesel for $.70 gallon.

He found a kit that uses Solar power (electricity) and water to make Hydrogen. It's pretty cool...the technology is out there, but until folks take a chance and start using it, the oil companies will have us by the balls.

That biodiesel warehouse also has a bio-diesel lawn mower engine...green grass and clean air. http://www.biodieselwarehouse.com/bilaen.html

 

[Hessian]

Hydrogen...how to make it.

I could use a refresher from some of you engineering-Chemistry folks:
I recall that electricity was needed to separate hydrogen from the oxygen. (Then my chem teacher blew up the hydrogen & reignited the smoldering firebrand with the oxygen)

So: it takes electricity to seperate the H2O. Why not use hydroelectric??
(Or Nuke?) Can you imagine if we did more with tidal-electic generating or all of these rural streams? Wind is 99% untapped in America...yet we have dozens of mt ranges that could bring in clean electricity.

So ...I guess that all these clean sources of electricity are too complicated or too low producing to generate seperated Hydrogen True? or False?

ALSO: where could I buy a small generator that is the opposite of the LOWE's generators...as in I want to harness wind/stream power and convert it into electricity..(Not pour in gas to get 2 hours of 80 watt juice)

 

[truby20]

It'll be a while. The biggest drawback to hydrogen is, you can't just dig it out of the ground, refine it, and stick it into a barrel (unless you get it out of natural gas) -- you have to burn fossil fuels *to MAKE IT*. (The article itself also refers to this). You actually make MORE pollution *making* hydrogen than just using the equivalent fossil fuel it replaces.

Isn't Hydrogen much more combustible than gasoline? What happens when an accident causes the hydrogen tank to rupture? I guess they can build a pretty sturdy tank in cars but what about transporting this stuff? Are people going to be ok with massive transport trucks hauling compressed hydrogen to the refueling stations? It's great that we are exploring a real candidate for fossil fuel replacement but we need to be realistic....more of the $1 B Bush proposed for research should be going toward improved hybrids instead of trying to make a huge technological jump.

 

[aps45819]

Isn't Hydrogen much more combustible than gasoline? What happens when an accident causes the hydrogen tank to rupture? I guess they can build a pretty sturdy tank in cars but what about transporting this stuff? Are people going to be ok with massive transport trucks hauling compressed hydrogen to the refueling stations?

Don't think you'd notice the difference between a tank truck full of H2 or one full of gasoline if they ignited anywhere near you.

 

[Ponytail]

hydrogen by itself is not combustable. It is only in a dangerous state when mixed with oxygen.

There is a world of info out there. It's realy interesting doing the research on it too.

Wind power is becoming more and more popular. It is expensive to set up initially, but here in Canada, more and more folks are building houses to be independent of oil/gas and electric companies. New houses are going up with solar panels and wind mills. You can run 80% of your household electronic needs by using a single "small" windmill. Though, even the small windmills aren't all that small and require quite a bit of surrounding land, permits, no #####y neighbors...

 

[sleuth]

hydrogen by itself is not combustable. It is only in a dangerous state when mixed with oxygen.

There is a world of info out there. It's realy interesting doing the research on it too.

Wind power is becoming more and more popular. It is expensive to set up initially, but here in Canada, more and more folks are building houses to be independent of oil/gas and electric companies. New houses are going up with solar panels and wind mills. You can run 80% of your household electronic needs by using a single "small" windmill. Though, even the small windmills aren't all that small and require quite a bit of surrounding land, permits, no #####y neighbors...

Cheap, Clean, Unlimited Energy.

Problem solved.

 

[SamSpade]

Isn't Hydrogen much more combustible than gasoline? What happens when an accident causes the hydrogen tank to rupture? I guess they can build a pretty sturdy tank in cars but what about transporting this stuff? Are people going to be ok with massive transport trucks hauling compressed hydrogen to the refueling stations? It's great that we are exploring a real candidate for fossil fuel replacement but we need to be realistic....more of the $1 B Bush proposed for research should be going toward improved hybrids instead of trying to make a huge technological jump.

I don't know - I DO know that oil companies *killed* the whole steam-powered vehicles by running massive campaigns convincing consumers that Stanley Steamers were extremely dangerous - that they would explode with the slightest jarring. I am convinced that anything that volatile would never get past the safety concerns of this nation.

What does get me however, is that nothing I've read convinces me there's any *efficient* and pollution-free way of *producing* usable hydrogen. It burns cleanly enough, but it uses fuel, to make fuel. It's like telling yourself that re-chargeable batteries are "free". The hell they are - they use electricity, and they *waste* as much energy as they consume. They're just damned convenient. But there's no net "savings".

You don't wean yourself off of Mideast oil if you still have to buy it, to make the "clean" fuel. You've only transformed it.

I've also never seen evidence of how solar and wind power can be used to create anywhere near the average use of electricity in a home - only the means of defraying the cost somewhat. Not unless you pay a lot of money to create a very large system - which, may be "green" and politically correct, but not cost-effective, because you don't recoup the cost of setting up the solar and wind stuff.

Example : Years ago, I saw this heating system in Massachusetts where they drilled a shaft deep into the ground and circulated air. Since the temps deep below the earth stayed constant, all you had to do was continually circulate air - the earth would warm, or cool the air to a constant 75 degrees. Pretty nifty? The downside? In today's dollars, such a system for a regular house would run several tens of thousands of dollars, and you still pay for electricity to pump the air anyway. Of course, it was going into the home of the President of Prime Computers - it was a *toy*, for him. For the rest of us schmucks, it was bloody stupid.

 

[Triggerfish]

If the world moves toward that, what are the Arab states going to do for a living? Because, frankly, that's all they've got and if we take it away, their economies will go in the crapper and it will become a global crisis.

Then, instead of pissing and moaning about oil and pollution, the liberals will be pissing and moaning about starving Arabs.

They need to start doing what they should have been doing for a long time. Invest the money on creating other industries instead of spending on lavish yachts, palaces, prostitutes, trips for the Saudi Princeses. Japan was a country with almost no natural resources and it went from a feudal state to a modern power in less than 50 yrs because the government invested in industry and education. A lot of the oil rich nations have invested some money but still not enough to raise the standard of living for the average person. One of the main reasons that Bin laden is so popular is that he supports the overthrow of the Saudi royal family.