Illegal immigration issue SOLVED!!!!

[willie]

There's a reason why Wal Marts are putting small businesses out of business. There's a reason that Home Depots are putting family hardware stores out of business. There's a reason why Pic and Pay Shoes is putting Mom and Pop stores out of business. The reason is that Americans are primarily price shoppers above all else. It's very easy to say you're willing to pay more... until the bills start to come in. Then when money is getting tight those discounts for goods and services derived from illegal labor start to look real inviting.

If everyone who said that they were willing to pay more for only Made in America goods, or goods produced 100% legally, or for goods sold at family businesses actually followed through, there would be no Wal Marts or Home Depots, few grocery stores, and everyhting sold in the USA would be made here. Since we're about 180 out from that, I would guess there's more talkin' than doin'.

You're drifting into oranges and apples. Comparing cheap Walmart and cheap Pedro doesn't work.

 

[Bruzilla]

Oh no! That's just terrible when people in this country illegally can't get the same wages and benefits that legal people can!

I should write my Congressman.....

Once again, you miss the point. I am not attempting to evoke sympathy, rather I am pointing out the fact that beggers can't be choosers. Illegals will work for less because they have no choice. If they become legal they will have a choice, which will substantially drive up consumer costs, which is why I'm no fan of making them legal.

 

[Bruzilla]

You're drifting into oranges and apples. Comparing cheap Walmart and cheap Pedro doesn't work.

They are one and the same. People shop at Wal Mart for the same reason they hire Pedro to do the yardwork... they're both cheaper and Americans are by and large price shoppers. Most guys would buy a lower-quality cordless drill for $18.98 at Wal Mart than a higher-quality one for $59.99 at Ace, most ladies would rather pay $20 for a nice blouse at Wal Mart than $60 at a specialty women's store, etc. There's a lot of talk about putting values over price, but the demise of the independent store (be it hardware, womenwear, toys, etc.) tells the real story.

The reason that bcp has to price himself down to compete with Pedro is the same reason that the independents had to price themselves out of business to compete with Wal Mart - people will pay more for goods when they feel that they have the money, which isn't very often. When they feel that money is tight, they'll go cheap every time.

 

[Bruzilla]

Well...yeah. Are you new to the States?

If BCP jacks his prices up more than the "market will bear", some smart competitor will come in with a lower price and win the job. That's how it works, unless you're the cable company.

And, with lawncare, I can reasonably assume that if ALL lawncare companies jack their rates up, people will start thinking twice about whether they really need the service or not. This will reduce demand, and lawncare companies will start restructuring their pricing to make their services more appealing and feasible.

That's all true, but you're forgetting the difference between internal and external competition. Right now bcp is having to keep prices artificially low because he's competing against Pedro, who by using illegal labor who work for far less than bcp's legal labor, can sell his services for a profit at a rate that would result in a loss for bcp. That equates to external competition. Once the Pedros are done away with, bcp no longer has to keep his rates artificially low, and neither will his legal competition.

So say you've got bcp, bcp2, and bcp3 legal companies doing business against Pedro. For the same job bcp bids $1,300, bcp2 bids 1,300, and bcp3 bids $1,400, while Pedro bids $900. I don't know bcp, but since he stated he's being forced to keep a low PM, I doubt that his or any other company's bid isn't skewed by Pedro's. So once we do away with Pedro, would the bcps keep their prices at $1,300 to $1,400? Doubtful. They would increase their prices to whatever the market will bear because they are all competing against each other on an internal basis. At that point people who are contracting their services would have to decide if paying more is worth it or not. I'm guessing that the increased prices would at first cause a drop off, but then once the higher prices became the norm business would pick up.

BTW, I'm not against any of this happening. I think that companies that provide non-essential goods and services should be allowed to charge whatever they can get. My only point in all of this is that people had better be prepared to pay more for stuff if illegal workers go away, and I don't think most of the folks screaming for illegals to go have any idea of what the economic impacts to their lives are going to be.

 

[Bruzilla]

I love mexicans. They work hard and when you are lying by your pool in California with your girlfriends and you are all 16 and pretty hot and they stare at you and say stuff (which you understand, cause daddy is fluent) , you can tell them to quit looking and threaten them with a shovel and say nasty stuff to them in Spanish. Not that I ever did that.

My daughter was just down at Daytona Beach and said she saw the same thing happen to her and a friend. I could get upset about that, but put a couple of hot Latina babes in bikinis on the beach and you'll have every red-blooded Caucasian American boy gawking at them. Damn that gene that makes us desire people who are different than us!

 

[Larry Gude]

Let's not make simple economics...

- people will pay more for goods when they feel that they have the money, which isn't very often. When they feel that money is tight, they'll go cheap every time.

...complicated.

Good times or bad, people, the vast majority, are going to buy essentially equal goods and/or services based on price and convenience...EVERY TIME, all the time.

Why go to five stores and pay 20% more when you can get everything you want for 20% less at one store? That is Walmart or the equivalent.

Bruz, I have no idea why you keep trying; no one but you and I care how much it's gonna cost because no one is interested in the cost.

For what it's worth, it will double wages in less than 5 years and it will cost about 1/2 of that in enforcement.

And, if you think about it, it will force each and every state to examine, hard, their social welfare expenses. Increased labor costs and the associated immigration enforcement costs will make budgets tight enough. When all the newly legalized losers start really getting social welfare benefits, we'll see how generous politicians are feeling.

This migth, I say might, actually tunr out good, making our social/welfare lunacy face the light of day.

 

[vraiblonde]

Good times or bad, people, the vast majority, are going to buy essentially equal goods and/or services based on price and convenience...EVERY TIME, all the time.

Not if they have to break the law, they won't.

Is this new immigration bill going to make illegal immigrants US citizens, or just legal to work?

 

[Larry Gude]

What planet are you from?

Not if they have to break the law, they won't.

Is this new immigration bill going to make illegal immigrants US citizens, or just legal to work?

Nebraska?

We would have ZERO illegal immigration if business AND politicians were interested in the law.

As far as I know, we have no immigration bill but I think it's all about legalizing to work, citizenship being another, seperate issue.


PS; If you mean most people, excluding those two groups, I agree!

 

[Somdmommy]

Immigration Advocates Rally Around U.S.

This just makes me mad, they jump the border to get here knowing its illegal, and then they can run all over b$tchin about it? GGRRRRR


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060410...7VQuk0A;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[Bruzilla]

...complicated.

Good times or bad, people, the vast majority, are going to buy essentially equal goods and/or services based on price and convenience...EVERY TIME, all the time.

Why go to five stores and pay 20% more when you can get everything you want for 20% less at one store? That is Walmart or the equivalent.

Sorry to disagree with you, but your convenience argument doesn't seem to hold much water. The Wal Mart effect is a fairly recent phenomina, while discount shopping isn't. I grew up with Kresges (now Kmart), Jamesway, Roses, Grants, Murphy's, and a host of other mass retailers/general merchandisers, but they always had plenty of competition from the independents/mom and pop operations. There was plenty of convenience offered by the mass retailers of the day, so why didn't they have the effect that Wal Mart had? My bet would be that Wal Mart was the first chain to look beyond retailing and into distribution and vendor agreements, which allow them to undersell most everybody. It is price, not convenience, that drives shoppers to Wal Mart, and as I said, Americans are largely proce shoppers.

I guess we can take the same view as with drugs: if we weren't using drugs, drug dealers wouldn't be sending them to the US. If there weren't people willing to toss companies like bcp's under the bus to save a few bucks, the Pedros wouldn't be around.

 

[Bruzilla]

Not if they have to break the law, they won't.

Is this new immigration bill going to make illegal immigrants US citizens, or just legal to work?

What realm of reality do you live in? You buy stuff everyday that someone has broken some law or another during growing/manufacture, shipping, delivery, or sale. Maybe the fact that you have no direct knowledge of these crimes shields you from feeling that you're aiding this activity, but it's still happening.

The proposed bill would make illegals who has been here for five+ years able to immediately apply for citizenship. Illegals with two to four years in-country would have to leave the US, but would be able to come right back in legally (which doesn't make much sense to me.) Illegals with less than two years in-country would have to get the hell out. But from what I'm hearing there isn't going to be an immigration bill... just a lot of talk and hoo-haw about it.

 

[vraiblonde]

You buy stuff everyday that someone has broken some law or another during growing/manufacture, shipping, delivery, or sale. Maybe the fact that you have no direct knowledge of these crimes shields you from feeling that you're aiding this activity, but it's still happening.

So you see no difference between me buying a blouse that was made by a company that contracts out to someone that hires illegal labor, and me hiring illegal labor myself?

Interesting....

 

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

Sorry to disagree with you, but your convenience argument doesn't seem to hold much water. The Wal Mart effect is a fairly recent phenomina, while discount shopping isn't. I grew up with Kresges (now Kmart), Jamesway, Roses, Grants, Murphy's, and a host of other mass retailers/general merchandisers, but they always had plenty of competition from the independents/mom and pop operations. There was plenty of convenience offered by the mass retailers of the day, so why didn't they have the effect that Wal Mart had? My bet would be that Wal Mart was the first chain to look beyond retailing and into distribution and vendor agreements, which allow them to undersell most everybody. It is price, not convenience, that drives shoppers to Wal Mart, and as I said, Americans are largely proce shoppers.

I guess we can take the same view as with drugs: if we weren't using drugs, drug dealers wouldn't be sending them to the US. If there weren't people willing to toss companies like bcp's under the bus to save a few bucks, the Pedros wouldn't be around.

...let's be honest here; You're not sorry to disagree with me.

As to Walmart being some mysterious phenomena, what they are doing now was not even possible 20 years ago.

First off, discount stores had discount quality. Real stores sold real stuff. The may pops and fish heads my old man bought us as kids, along with the $2 blue jeans were what they were; cheap, in every way. Jamesway had nowhere near the brands, the selection and the variety that Walmart does today. Flowers, food, hardware, auto services. Get out of here with your Kresges. ZERO comparison.

Walmart has taken advantage, been on the cutting edge, of globalization; securing deals with foreign (read cheap) manufacturers of every increasing quality. They have used predatory practices to get volume discount pricing that has put the little guys on life support. Zoning changes have been the plug getting pulled. They also try and sell EVERYTHING.

20 years ago, some big store had no chance to come in and set up shop in the locations they are doing now because small towns were good old boy networks of you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. They'd bend and/or break the rules to keep the big guys away. That is no longer the case. You just can't get away with that stuff anymore.

We did not need Walmart because everyone can remember a day before them. Now, we do need them because of the extinction of small retail shops.
Like the dinosaurs, the little guys are not coming back.

Walmart is doing nothing that wasn't thought of before. Standard Oil ring a bell? The rules have changed. Distribution has changed. Manufacturing has changed. Import rules and regs have changed. Foreign manufacturing has changed.

 

[SamSpade]

The proposed bill would make illegals who has been here for five+ years able to immediately apply for citizenship. Illegals with two to four years in-country would have to leave the US, but would be able to come right back in legally (which doesn't make much sense to me.) Illegals with less than two years in-country would have to get the hell out.

And it is SO incredibly stupid, it amazes me that we elect people to craft this kind of crap.

e.g. You're an illegal. You've been here three years and have worked via false ID's. Government comes by and says "how long you been here? If you've been here five years or more, you get to stay" -
"oh --- five years".
"Really? Prove it"
"Sure no problem, lemme give YOU MY *ID*".

Repeat 11 million times.

LMAO. What a joke. They have idea how idiotic it is to expect honest, unfabricated data from 11 million people who have gotten by by precisely DOING that - lying to the US.

Any plan whose success depends on a dishonest person being honest is truly idiotic.

 

[itsbob]

I think we should open up our American borders, just require out of towners to register, and if they so much as get a traffic ticket deport them.. We'd save billions, and if we catch anyone trying to sneak in, we know they are up to something a lot more illegal then sneaking across a border.. shoot em.

Issue them SS#'s when they come into country, ensure they know the tax law, and let them in.

I really don't see the difference in having an open border with Mexico and Canada, or Montana..

Beef up our entry points, make MORE entry points.. and lets them come..

(I'm in need of cheap daycare, I get first dibs)

 

[SamSpade]

I think we should open up our American borders, just require out of towners to register, and if they so much as get a traffic ticket deport them.. We'd save billions, and if we catch anyone trying to sneak in, we know they are up to something a lot more illegal then sneaking across a border.. shoot em.

Issue them SS#'s when they come into country, ensure they know the tax law, and let them in.

I really don't see the difference in having an open border with Mexico and Canada, or Montana..

Beef up our entry points, make MORE entry points.. and lets them come..

(I'm in need of cheap daycare, I get first dibs)

Nah - because instead of your ideas, it will go like this -
Open the borders - let every Tom, Dick and Osama in.
If they so much a get a traffic ticket - tell them they have to leave, but only when it's convenient. If they fight it, make sure we pay for a lawyer to argue their case for them. And we pay for the translator, so we can understand the curses they hurl at us and their lawyer.

To hell with issuing SSN's. Give them a driver's license, a Democratic voter's registration card, free tuition, an ATM card with a few grand on it, and a place to stay.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Not true. SSA and DLLR do a fine job of tracking people based on their Social Security number.

First of all, employers are supposed to register new employees in the New Hire Registry. Second, each month they also pay their state unemployment, which breaks all employees down by SSN.

So if an employee gives a fake SSN it should take one month, three at the most, to catch them.

According to my daughter, when a person with a green card or Social Security card that is marked "For employment purposes only" applies for work, she calls INS or some other place to check the validity of the documentation. If it is fake, they don't get hired.

She hires people in the health industry. She says that about 30% of the illegals she encounters have HIV or AIDS. I don't know how she knows, so don't ask. That compounds the problem of illegal since that large a percentage translates to a very large number of people. That is not good for the U.S. health system.

 

[itsbob]

Still if open borders can work in Europe, why can't work between THREE democratic Nations.. US, Canada and Mexico?? Why spend BILLIONS of dollars a year on a problem money isn't going to fix.. We need to open the borders, let them in, let them work.. let them pay taxes.

A terrorist is more likely to sneak in from an American State then from Mexico (McVeigh).. and if they wanted to, they don't have to wait for us to open the borders, they can do it NOW!

 

[SamSpade]

Still if open borders can work in Europe, why can't work between THREE democratic Nations.. US, Canada and Mexico?? Why spend BILLIONS of dollars a year on a problem money isn't going to fix.. We need to open the borders, let them in, let them work.. let them pay taxes.

Have you been reading or did you just show up?

Pedro sneaks across the border to get a job that pays better than in Mexico. Since he doesn't pay taxes, an employer will hire him, because he's cheaper than his American counterpart (his American counterpart - to get the VERY SAME TAKE HOME PAY as the Mexican, since he ain't paying taxes - requires about 30% more).

And that's the biggest part of the problem. See, if the employer was NOT ALLOWED to hire him, and we enforced this law, Pedro would have to pay taxes - and suddenly - he costs more. He costs the same as an American, except he doesn't speak the language. Now, he might be a liability.


Secondly - where is this that Europe has "open borders"? You're saying that anyone in Europe can immigrate to anywhere else in Europe, without restrictions - or can work anywhere else in Europe, same pay, no restrictions? I bet the former Eastern bloc would love to hear about it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

... It is price, not convenience, that drives shoppers to Wal Mart, and as I said, Americans are largely proce shoppers....

A little off topic, but Wal*Mart also has special models made for them. Look at a microwave oven of something like that in Wal*Mart and try to find the same model somewhere else. Hard to do. Same with electronics. Often the Wal*Mart model is cheaper for a reason; it is made that way.

The saying that "you get what you pay for" is often true whether it is Wal*Mart merchandise or the auto body work done by "Pedro". Now if you are getting the body work done on your '64 Ford Falcon, who cares? But expect to get what you pay for.