I'm getting nervous

[Tonio]

Originally posted by kwillia
Tonio, you are wanting to inflict on-going torture on one that is already apprehended and neutralized.... that is not defending ones self and in no way, shape or form does that equate to the ongoing fighting in Fallujah....

That's a good question. You don't think that torturing one terrorist will scare the others so much that they won't mess with us? These monsters aren't afraid of death. The only way we can be safe from terrorists is if we make them live in fear of us.

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by kwillia
No, if it worked like that seeing the pictures of the four murdered, mutilated, charred American bodies hanging from the bridge should of scared us away, right...:shrug:

Then what will make them scared of us, goddammit?! I WANT THEM TO FEAR US!!!

 

[vraiblonde]

Tonio, they already DO fear us. Why do you think they want us dead?

You wouldn't be torturing some criminal in self-defense - like Kwill said, he's already neutralized and not a threat anymore. By torturing them, you're just getting your jollies and taking out anger. There's nothing constructive to be gained by it.

 

[Tonio]

Tonio, they already DO fear us. Why do you think they want us dead?

No no no, they don't fear us. They simply hate us. Some of it is religious fanaticism stoked by demagogues, and some of it is simple resentment over our way of life.

You wouldn't be torturing some criminal in self-defense - like Kwill said, he's already neutralized and not a threat anymore. By torturing them, you're just getting your jollies and taking out anger. There's nothing constructive to be gained by it.

Why wouldn't the tortured terrorist serve as an object lesson to the other terrorists? I would think that would make the fanatics say to each other, "Man, don't mess with those Americans. They'll hurt you so bad that you'll wish you were dead." That's why the racists in the Jim Crow South lynched black men in public--they wanted to keep the region's black population scared and docile.

I'm certainly not trying to excuse or glorify Jim Crow. I'm saying that we're at war with fanatics who treat death as martyrdom, so killing them doesn't stop them. No matter how many we kill, others will rise up to take their places. I'm out of ideas for stopping a relentless enemy like that.

 

[vraiblonde]

Well, Tonio, the short answer is that we're not a bunch of barbarians who torture people like those prehistoric Muslims. If you want to act like that, you have to move to a different country - that's not how Americans do.

No no no, they don't fear us. They simply hate us.

All anger and hatred is borne of fear. Any psychologist will tell you that.

What are they afraid of? They're afraid they're wrong. That's what all religious zealots are afraid of, especially when they see "heathens" living the good life and they have to wait for death to get their "reward". People who are secure in their beliefs are content to live and let live.

They're also afraid of our technology and modernization - makes them look like a bunch of losers who can't get their act together.

 

[Hessian]

Vrai...this whole anger thing.

The relationship between fear and anger is odd.

Allah has not punished the Great Satan for years? Decades? centuries? Why hasn't Allah heard the countless prayers of his centuries of humble followers and punished the Great Satan?
Maybe it is because we have gone soft and adopted some of the western ways! So...no more women in public, in professions, everyone must go on the pilgrimmage (no matter how many get trampled every year)...no western music, No alcohol, everyone must obey the mufti...the Mahdi will come to save all of Allah's true sons.

and still...the Great Satan seems to get stronger! Arrrgh!
Beat ourselves in the streets til blood is spattered,
Send our kids to be suicide bombers...
Batter lifeless Americans into pieces while screaming Allah is Great!!!


and still the Great Satan punishes the loyal followers of Allah!


Do you see where this is going? They don't fear that their religion is wrong...they fear Allah is unhappy with them for allowing the great Satan to invade and defile their sacred mosques. They must always do more to appeal to Allah and his only messenger Muhammed (may he be blessed) because it appears that they are not helping/defending because the followers have failed (and keep failing)

This is the mess we're in. Fanatical hatred of the west mixed with timid secular Arabs, tribal passions and sectarian rivalries.
And we're supposed to build wells, roads, schools, libraries, oil lines, and police barracks for them?...and they'll appreciate it??????
NO!...we are all hated infidels!..everything we touch is contaminated! (and they cycle goes on since the Brits went there in the 1700's)

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
Well, Tonio, the short answer is that we're not a bunch of barbarians who torture people like those prehistoric Muslims. If you want to act like that, you have to move to a different country - that's not how Americans do.

My point is that being a barbarian may be the only way to survive in a world where "civilization" is a farce and a cruel joke. Being good and humane and "civilized" might just get us dead, because those qualities are seen as weaknesses. The countries of the world lust for our blood. They long to hear the lamentations of our parents crying for their dead children. They have a knife to our throat. Just to stay alive, we have to not only force those countries to drop that knife, but also pick it up and hold it to their throats. We live in a barbaric world, and only the barbarians survive. We can be either barbarians or we can be dead. Die on our feet or live on our knees.

 

[vraiblonde]

Originally posted by Tonio
We live in a barbaric world, and only the barbarians survive.

I disagree. It's only a handful of extremists that are the barbarians - most other countries have come along quite nicely into civility. It's just a few factions in the Middle East and Africa.

If you talk to a "progressive" Democrat, they'll tell you the US military is exceedingly barbaric because troops kill people. They don't seem to think mutilating bodies and setting fire to them while dragging them down a public street is barbaric, but they think shooting a kid with bombs strapped to him is reprehensible.

They also don't think it's barbaric for Iraqi soldiers to take refuge in a school, church or hospital, endangering innocent lives. But they think it's WAY barbaric when US forces blow up the refuge.

So I guess it just depends on what you consider "barbaric".

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by vraiblonde
All anger and hatred is borne of fear. Any psychologist will tell you that.

Vrai, you're one of the few conservatives I know who actually gives credence to psychiatry and psychology. I've met many other conservatives who dismiss most talk about mental illness as "touchy-feely liberal BS" designed to evade personal responsibility, or worse, as crap made up by criminal defendants trying to avoid a life sentence or the death penalty.