In support of the Apocrypha

onel0126

Bead mumbler
and finally......

In fact, since 382 only one council or pope had appeared to deny the canonicity of an Old Testament deuterocanonical book. Gregory the Great, writing in his Morals on the book of Job around 600, said of 1 Maccabees, "We are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the Church, we bring forward testimony. Thus, Eleazar in the battle smote and brought down the elephant but fell under the very beast that he killed" (1 Macc 6:46). This was not a formal universal teaching to the faithful; rather, it was private theological commentary on the book of Job. Such a teaching is not a statement invoking papal authority, nor is it subject to or preserved by the charism of papal infallibility.

Further, consider the ramifications if the authority of the Body of Christ since 382 is wrong. If Trent's Sacrasancta decree incorrectly added Old Testament deuterocanonical books, how do we know it correctly defined the New Testament canon? After all, the arguments against the New Testament books are identical to those against the Old: Jewish scholars rejected New Testament writings, and Trent added them to Scripture to support flawed theology. Luther made an argument similar to this when he attacked Revelation, Hebrews, Jude, and 2 Peter, and he seriously considered "throwing Jimmy [the epistle of James] into the fire" because it contradicted his faith-alone theology. Standing in judgment of Scripture, Luther called James "an epistle full of straw," while regarding all five of these books as quasi-canonical. Interestingly, Luther did not completely discard the deuterocanonical Old Testament books he attacked, he merely relegated them to an appendix between the Old and New Testaments. For three hundred years, many Protestant translations retained this appendix because the books were recognized as useful for moral instruction. Indeed, the Protestant kings of England imposed the death penalty on anyone who omitted the deuterocanonical appendix. The books were discarded completely only as late as 1827, by the British and Foreign Bible Society.

Supposedly, Jewish authority is accepted for Old Testament definition but rejected for New because Jewish scholars who rejected Christ could know nothing about the New Testament, while they knew the Old Testament because they lived it. This falsely separates the two Testaments of Scripture. Since the New Testament lies hidden in the Old, while the Old is fulfilled in the New, the Old Testament is just as permeated with Christ as is the New. Jewish scholars who rejected Christ rejected the guidance of the Holy Spirit and thus could not properly recognize either Old or New Testament Scripture.

Luther claimed to accept the Hebrew canon only because the Jews knew better than anyone what books constituted the Old Testament. Yet Luther's sermons showed little respect for Jewish theological opinion in other areas or for Jews in general. He ignored Old Testament Midrash commentaries or targums. Though the Jews have long prayed Q'addish, an eleven-month prayer of purification for the recently deceased, he rejected purgatory, claiming his newly-defined canon had no prayers for the dead. He ignored the fact that all first-century Jews accepted the Septuagint. He ignored the fact that the non-Christian Jews upon whose opinion he relied for Old Testament canonicity rejected the entire New Testament. In short, Martin Luther pretended to rely on the authority of Jewish Scripture scholars, the same Jews upon whom he poured verbal vitriol from the pulpit, so he could subvert the authority of the Body of Christ. If the ability or authority to determine the canon of Scripture rests in the individual Christian, upon what grounds could Marcion-who claimed to be led by God in using a severely mangled canon to deny Christ's humanity-be fought? According to Matthew 18:17, the Church has final authority to settle disputes between Christians. Certainly the decision concerning what is truly God's word is within her authority.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
I've been studying the books of the Apocrypha of late for the first time in 15 years. Some of you are missing out. Really digging Sirach and Wisdom.

Sirach
Chapter 35
1
1 To keep the law is a great oblation, and he who observes the commandments sacrifices a peace offering.
2
2 In works of charity one offers fine flour, and when he gives alms he presents his sacrifice of praise.
3
To refrain from evil pleases the LORD, and to avoid injustice is an atonement.
4
Appear not before the LORD empty-handed, for all that you offer is in fulfillment of the precepts.
5
The just man's offering enriches the altar and rises as a sweet odor before the Most High.
6
The just man's sacrifice is most pleasing, nor will it ever be forgotten.
7
In generous spirit pay homage to the LORD, be not sparing of freewill gifts.
8
With each contribution show a cheerful countenance, and pay your tithes in a spirit of joy.
9
Give to the Most High as he has given to you, generously, according to your means.
10
For the LORD is one who always repays, and he will give back to you sevenfold.
11
But offer no bribes, these he does not accept! Trust not in sacrifice of the fruits of extortion,
12
For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites.
13
3 Though not unduly partial toward the weak, yet he hears the cry of the oppressed.
14
He is not deaf to the wail of the orphan, nor to the widow when she pours out her complaint;
15
Do not the tears that stream down her cheek cry out against him that causes them to fall?
16
He who serves God willingly is heard; his petition reaches the heavens.
17
The prayer of the lowly pierces the clouds; it does not rest till it reaches its goal,
18
Nor will it withdraw till the Most High responds, judges justly and affirms the right.
19
God indeed will not delay, and like a warrior, will not be still
20
Till he breaks the backs of the merciless and wreaks vengeance upon the proud;
21
Till he destroys the haughty root and branch, and smashes the scepter of the wicked;
22
Till he requites mankind according to its deeds, and repays men according to their thoughts;
23
Till he defends the cause of his people, and gladdens them by his mercy.
24
Welcome is his mercy in time of distress as rain clouds in time of drought.
 

ItalianScallion

Harley Rider
I've been studying the books of the Apocrypha of late for the first time in 15 years. Some of you are missing out. Really digging Sirach and Wisdom.
There is nothing of value in the Apocryphal books that isn't addressed in the 66 Bible books.

There are things in the Apocrypha that are contradictory to things in the 66 Bible books and that's dangerous unless you have spiritual discernment.

So why do 2 or 3 writers of the Bible books quote them? Even a broken clock is right 2 times a day, but would you drink a large glass of water with only one tsp of poison in it??? Remember, God guided the men as to which books to include in the Canon of Scripture. Are you saying HE made a mistake?
 

Starman3000m

New Member
...There is nothing of value in the Apocryphal books that isn't addressed in the 66 Bible books.

AMEN! :yay:

For Starters:
The Book of Proverbs, Chapter 1:

1: The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;

2: To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

3: To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

4: To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

5: A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

6: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

7: The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

8: My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:

9: For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

10: My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

11: If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:

12: Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

13: We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:

14: Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:

15: My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:

16: For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.

17: Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.

18: And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.

19: So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.

20: Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21: She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22: How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23: Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24: Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25: But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27: When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28: Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31: Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

32: For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

33: But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

There are 31 Chapters in the Book of Proverbs; some short, some lengthy, but all filled with gems of wise advice. The Holy Bible contains all the essential Truths that anyone needs to really know the God of Salvation and be instructed in the right path of life.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. (Proverbs 3:5-6)
 

baydoll

New Member
Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).

The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.

Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.

No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.

Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

Wasn't the Apocrypha in the King James?

The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God. As books of some historical value (e.g., details of the Maccabean revolt), the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used.

Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement:

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."
King James Version Defended page 98.

In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James said this about the Apocrypha:

"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said before)..."
King James Charles Stewart
Basilicon Doron, page 13
In his A Premonition to All Most Mightie Monarches," King James said this--

"...Is it a small corrupting of the Scriptures to make all, or the most part of the Apocrypha of equall faith with the canonicall Scriptures...?"

Not only this, but the sixth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England (1571 edition--the church of England published the Authorized (King James) Version) states that the Old and New Testaments are the Bible and the apocrypha is not:

In the name of the Holy, we do vnderstande those canonical bookes of the olde and newe Testament, of whose authoritie was never any doubt in the Churche...
Now concerning the apocrypha it states,

And the other bookes, (as Hierome sayeth), the Churche doth reade for example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not applie them to establish any doctrene.
Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1977, Vol. III, pp. 489-491.

The Hampton Court Document came as a result of the famous Hampton Court Conference of 1604 when King James authorized the translation of the Bible that would one day bear his name. Concerning the apocrypha and the Church of England, it states--

The Apocrypha, that hath some repugnancy to the canonical scriptures, shall not be read...
The Apocrypha began to be omitted from the Authorized Version in 1629. Puritans and Presbyterians lobbied for the complete removal of the Apocrypha from the Bible and in 1825 the British and Foreign Bible Society agreed. From that time on, the Apocrypha has been eliminated from practically all English Bibles--Catholic Bibles and some pulpit Bibles excepted.

Not even all Catholic "Church Fathers" believed the Apocrypha was scripture.

Not that this really means anything. The truth is not validated by the false. Nevertheless, this may be of interest to some... Jerome (340-420) rejected the Apocrypha:

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
Jerome

Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon
According to Edward Hills in The King James Version Defended p. 98 other famous Catholics with this viewpoint include Augustine (354-430 who at first defended the Apocrypha as canonical), Pope Gregory the Great (540-604), Cardinal Ximenes, and Cardinal Cajetan.

There are other spurious books.

These include the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to have been written by various Old Testament patriarchs. They were composed between 200 B.C. and 100 A.D. There are lots of these spurious books like The Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah.

Concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, there may be some information in them that parallels the Masoretic Text, but there are fables in them too. I went to see the scrolls a few years ago with great expectation but found a bunch of fables. The best defense against error in any form (fake Bibles and religions) is a solid knowledge of your King James Bible. If you read it, forgeries become readily apparent. Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

BTW, excellent post, Starman. :yay:
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

Not one of the apocryphal books is written in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

All Apocryphal books are in Greek, except one which is extant only in Latin.
None of the apocryphal writers laid claim to inspiration.

The apocryphal books were never acknowledged as sacred scriptures by the Jews, custodians of the Hebrew scriptures (the apocrypha was written prior to the New Testament). In fact, the Jewish people rejected and destroyed the apocrypha after the overthow of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The apocryphal books were not permitted among the sacred books during the first four centuries of the real Christian church (I'm certainly not talking about the Catholic religion which is not Christian).

The Apocrypha contains fabulous statements which not only contradict the "canonical" scriptures but themselves. For example, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in three different places.

The Apocrypha includes doctrines in variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

The following verses are taken from the Apocrypha translation by Ronald Knox dated 1954:

Basis for the doctrine of purgatory:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

Salvation by works:

Ecclesiasticus 3:30, Water will quench a flaming fire, and alms maketh atonement for sin.

Tobit 12:8-9, 17, It is better to give alms than to lay up gold; for alms doth deliver from death, and shall purge away all sin.

Magic:

Tobit 6:5-8, If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore.
Mary was born sinless (immaculate conception):

Wisdom 8:19-20, And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assasination and magical incantation.

No apocryphal book is referred to in the New Testament whereas the Old Testament is referred to hundreds of times.

Because of these and other reasons, the apocryphal books are only valuable as ancient documents illustrative of the manners, language, opinions and history of the East.

Wasn't the Apocrypha in the King James?

The King James translators never considered the Apocrypha the word of God. As books of some historical value (e.g., details of the Maccabean revolt), the Apocrypha was sandwiched between the Old and New Testaments as an appendix of reference material. This followed the format that Luther had used.

Luther prefaced the Apocrypha with a statement:

"Apocrypha--that is, books which are not regarded as equal to the holy Scriputres, and yet are profitable and good to read."
King James Version Defended page 98.

In 1599, TWELVE YEARS BEFORE the King James Bible was published, King James said this about the Apocrypha:

"As to the Apocriphe bookes, I OMIT THEM because I am no Papist (as I said before)..."
King James Charles Stewart
Basilicon Doron, page 13
In his A Premonition to All Most Mightie Monarches," King James said this--

"...Is it a small corrupting of the Scriptures to make all, or the most part of the Apocrypha of equall faith with the canonicall Scriptures...?"

Not only this, but the sixth article of the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England (1571 edition--the church of England published the Authorized (King James) Version) states that the Old and New Testaments are the Bible and the apocrypha is not:

In the name of the Holy, we do vnderstande those canonical bookes of the olde and newe Testament, of whose authoritie was never any doubt in the Churche...
Now concerning the apocrypha it states,

And the other bookes, (as Hierome sayeth), the Churche doth reade for example of life and instruction of manners: but yet doth it not applie them to establish any doctrene.
Philip Schaff, Creeds of Christendom. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1977, Vol. III, pp. 489-491.

The Hampton Court Document came as a result of the famous Hampton Court Conference of 1604 when King James authorized the translation of the Bible that would one day bear his name. Concerning the apocrypha and the Church of England, it states--

The Apocrypha, that hath some repugnancy to the canonical scriptures, shall not be read...
The Apocrypha began to be omitted from the Authorized Version in 1629. Puritans and Presbyterians lobbied for the complete removal of the Apocrypha from the Bible and in 1825 the British and Foreign Bible Society agreed. From that time on, the Apocrypha has been eliminated from practically all English Bibles--Catholic Bibles and some pulpit Bibles excepted.

Not even all Catholic "Church Fathers" believed the Apocrypha was scripture.

Not that this really means anything. The truth is not validated by the false. Nevertheless, this may be of interest to some... Jerome (340-420) rejected the Apocrypha:

"As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
Jerome

Jerome's preface to the books of Solomon
According to Edward Hills in The King James Version Defended p. 98 other famous Catholics with this viewpoint include Augustine (354-430 who at first defended the Apocrypha as canonical), Pope Gregory the Great (540-604), Cardinal Ximenes, and Cardinal Cajetan.

There are other spurious books.

These include the Pseudepigrapha which contains Enoch, Michael the Archangel, and Jannes and Jambres. Many of these books falsely claim to have been written by various Old Testament patriarchs. They were composed between 200 B.C. and 100 A.D. There are lots of these spurious books like The Assumption of Moses, Apocalypse of Elijah, and Ascension of Isaiah.

Concerning the Dead Sea Scrolls, there may be some information in them that parallels the Masoretic Text, but there are fables in them too. I went to see the scrolls a few years ago with great expectation but found a bunch of fables. The best defense against error in any form (fake Bibles and religions) is a solid knowledge of your King James Bible. If you read it, forgeries become readily apparent. Why the Apocrypha Isn't in the Bible.

BTW, excellent post, Starman. :yay:

Some of what you copied and pasted from that website is patently false. Will address later today when time permits.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Protestant author Paul Achtemeier tells us, "Eastern and Roman Catholic tradition generally considered the Old Testament ‘apocryphal’ books to be canonical. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that these books were clearly denied canonical status (in Protestant circles). The Roman church, however, continues to affirm their place in the canon of Scripture" (Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1st ed. [Harper & Row, c1985], 69).

At the Council of Trent the Church put the matter to rest by listing definitively the accepted books, which included the deuterocanonicals, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church affirms this list (CCC 120). This is the Catholic Bible we have today.

Isn’t it interesting that Martin Luther acknowledged the Catholic Church as the custodian of sacred Scripture (note 5, sidebar, page 25) when he wrote, "We concede—as we must—that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received holy scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"
 

baydoll

New Member
Isn’t it interesting that Martin Luther acknowledged the Catholic Church as the custodian of sacred Scripture (note 5, sidebar, page 25) when he wrote, "We concede—as we must—that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received holy scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"

You wanna give us the complete quote for that onel0126?
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
You wanna give us the complete quote for that onel0126?

You were asking for more from Luther?

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
A question for you, onel0126:

What is God saying in the Apocrypha that is not in Scripture?

Truth is, it is very consistent. Be honest here BD, have you truly ever read these books, or, have you only read what others have said about these books?
 

baydoll

New Member
Isn’t it interesting that Martin Luther acknowledged the Catholic Church as the custodian of sacred Scripture (note 5, sidebar, page 25) when he wrote, "We concede—as we must—that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received holy scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"

Found it! That *quote* can be found here:

mlsermjoh1526-1604-2

I recommend everyone read this for themselves...it is HIGHLY revealing! :yay:
 

baydoll

New Member
Truth is, it is very consistent. Be honest here BD, have you truly ever read these books, or, have you only read what others have said about these books?

Wow nice diverson there, onel!!

If the truth is very consistent then what is God saying in the Apocrypha that is not in Scripture?
 

Starman3000m

New Member
...Isn’t it interesting that Martin Luther acknowledged the Catholic Church as the custodian of sacred Scripture (note 5, sidebar, page 25) when he wrote, "We concede—as we must—that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received holy scriptures, baptism, the sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?"

As is so much of what [the Catholic Church] say is Not True!

Had Luther not felt that the papacy and RCC had gone astray he would not have posted his 95 Thesis on the door of the church. Have you read them?

BTW: Ever read about what a "little leaven" does?

And you also know that when half-truths are presented that the other half of what is being stated must be false.

There Is Only One Truth
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Wow nice diverson there, onel!!

If the truth is very consistent then what is God saying in the Apocrypha that is not in Scripture?

Diversion? I'm sorry so did you say that you had or had not read the these books yourself?
 

baydoll

New Member
You were asking for more from Luther?

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

No I was asking for a link so we can see the quote in its entirety thanks. :yay: But looks like I already beat you to it.

Also looks like your *quotes* have been *tweaked* a bit . :cool:
 
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