In support of the Apocrypha

[Starman3000m]

at the time of the "christian prophets" it would have probably been the Tanakh

As you may know, the Tanakh is the Old Testament writings of the Holy Bible.

The Tanakh contains the complete story of how the Children of Israel rebelled against God and how the religious leaders accepted "prophets" who were not real prophets of God and killed the ones who were.

The Tanakh comprises the Old Covenant (Old Testament) with the Children of Israel and prophesied the coming Saviour of mankind whereby God would establish a New Covenant and, thus the sacrifices of bulls would not be necessary.

The Tanakh explicity states that the Jewish people would come under God's wrath because of their hard hearts and calls the religious leaders stiff-necked people who worship God with ther lips while in reality their hearts are far from God.

If the laws and rituals of the Tanakh were to be imposed by the Jews today, there would be stonings, burnings, strangulations and decapitations imposed as a form of capital punishment (Mosaic Laws). Plus, parents would be allowed to kill unruly children - according to the Torah (the first 5 books of the Tanakh).

The New Testament is God's New Covenant with mankind and opens the door of Salvation to all, not only Jews. That is the basic message and is a fulfillment of what had already been prophesied in the Tanakh.

So, the teachings of Jesus are actually the completion of the "original religion" that you refer to. The reason that Orthodox Judaism did not accept Jesus is because they were looking for a military leader like King David, not a pacifist leader who taught us to love our neighbors and even our enemies. They used Jesus' claim to be the Son of God as the basis to have Him put to death. But, then again, it had to be in order to fulfill God's Plan of Salvation once and for all and for all mankind through Christ's Atoning Blood. That is the basic message to this world. Meanwhile, religious denominations try to capitalize on that message and control people through doctrines and traditions of men while fleecing their flocks and profiting monetarily at the same time.

 

[thatguy]

As you may know, the Tanakh is the Old Testament writings of the Holy Bible.

The Tanakh contains the complete story of how the Children of Israel rebelled against God and how the religious leaders accepted "prophets" who were not real prophets of God and killed the ones who were.

The Tanakh comprises the Old Covenant (Old Testament) with the Children of Israel and prophesied the coming Saviour of mankind whereby God would establish a New Covenant and, thus the sacrifices of bulls would not be necessary.

The Tanakh explicity states that the Jewish people would come under God's wrath because of their hard hearts and calls the religious leaders stiff-necked people who worship God with ther lips while in reality their hearts are far from God.

If the laws and rituals of the Tanakh were to be imposed by the Jews today, there would be stonings, burnings, strangulations and decapitations imposed as a form of capital punishment (Mosaic Laws). Plus, parents would be allowed to kill unruly children - according to the Torah (the first 5 books of the Tanakh).

The New Testament is God's New Covenant with mankind and opens the door of Salvation to all, not only Jews. That is the basic message and is a fulfillment of what had already been prophesied in the Tanakh.

So, the teachings of Jesus are actually the completion of the "original religion" that you refer to. The reason that Orthodox Judaism did not accept Jesus is because they were looking for a military leader like King David, not a pacifist leader who taught us to love our neighbors and even our enemies. They used Jesus' claim to be the Son of God as the basis to have Him put to death. But, then again, it had to be in order to fulfill God's Plan of Salvation once and for all and for all mankind through Christ's Atoning Blood. That is the basic message to this world. Meanwhile, religious denominations try to capitalize on that message and control people through doctrines and traditions of men while fleecing their flocks and profiting monetarily at the same time.

there were a lot more reason than that for the jews not to accept jesus as gods son, but i will let you argue that with nuck or one of those guys.
As for your "completion of the "original religion". the new testament most certainly is no different from the book of mormon in that regard. both claim to be the completion or additions to the story, and neither arewere accepted by the practicioners of the root faiths.

again, the christian bible is to the old testament what the book of mormon is to the christian bible. and the validity of either (or both) has been determined by men, nothing more.

 

[libby]

I believe there are many who still light candles as part of their prayer ritual. Again, really not necessary nor Biblical. That's why it was mentioned.

It's also not a doctrine, SM, and neither are any of the items you mentioned in the other thread. I pointed that out but the topic veered off again.

 

[libby]

Actually, the Jewish leaders were using religion to control people, much like what is happening today and what has been happening all along. The Jewish religious heirarchy established their own rules, traditions and rituals (same as religions of today) and controlled people in that manner.

When you read the Old Testament, you will find that God chastised the Jewish leaders many times for misleading their people. Then, when Jesus appeared, as the prophesied Messiah, He also chastised the religious leaders in the same way. Also remember that the first several thousand people who believed the teachings of Jesus and accepted them as the prophesied Messiah/Lamb of God, were ALL JEWISH men women and children.

Jesus came not just to give His Life to provide God's forgiveness for your sins and mine, He also came to free people from the religious bondage and control that they were under so that we could have a direct and spiritual fellowship with God.

When the Jewish leaders, under Rome's jurisdiction, had Jesus crucified, Jesus still prayed for God to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing by calling for His crucifixion. Yet, it had to be so that His Atoning Blood could establish God's Forgiveness for those who trust in Him.

Other denominations have taken the simple Truth of God's Salvation and claimed that they have the exclusive right to grant it through their own teachings. Not so.

The doctrines of our faith do not control us, they free us. They free us from the bondage of sin in our temporal lives.

 

[Starman3000m]

The doctrines of our faith do not control us, they free us. They free us from the bondage of sin in our temporal lives.

Hi libby,

Remember that when one is "born again of the Spirit" it is Christ alone who is the one who releases us from the bondage of sin through our faith. Not the ongoing performing of rites, rituals and specific traditions that must be adhered to according to any religious system of "works".

 

[Starman3000m]

It's also not a doctrine, SM, and neither are any of the items you mentioned in the other thread. I pointed that out but the topic veered off again.

Hi libby, those things may not be "doctrine" but they are still practiced by many. The point is they are not necessary at all to have one's prayers and petitions presented before God. Fact is, those traditions are what people follow because they sincerely believe it is expected of them in many cases. - That's why they continue their religious rituals.

 

[Starman3000m]

there were a lot more reason than that for the jews not to accept jesus as gods son, but i will let you argue that with nuck or one of those guys.
As for your "completion of the "original religion". the new testament most certainly is no different from the book of mormon in that regard. both claim to be the completion or additions to the story, and neither arewere accepted by the practicioners of the root faiths.

again, the christian bible is to the old testament what the book of mormon is to the christian bible. and the validity of either (or both) has been determined by men, nothing more.

The New Testament is The New Covenant that God Promised to the Israelis in the Nevi'im (former Prophets) as mentioned in Jeremiah:

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (Jeremiah 31:31)

Jesus is the fulfillment of that New Covenant. As mentioned before, if you were to revert back to the "original" teachings of the Tanakh, there would be a continuation of stoning, decapitation, burning and strangulation as forms of capital punishment. Also, it would be allowed for parents to kill unruly kids and shun and excommunicate any family member that left Judaism.

Is that the original religion you'd like to see mankind revert back to? Don't you think that God had a better plan under His New Covenant whereby mankind can be forgiven of sins and spiritually restored to Him through the Atoning Blood of Jesus?

Why do you think God (in the Old Testament) used Abraham as an example of true faith for what was to come about when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac on the altar?
(Genesis 22:1-14)

 

[libby]

Hi libby, those things may not be "doctrine" but they are still practiced by many. The point is they are not necessary at all to have one's prayers and petitions presented before God. Fact is, those traditions are what people follow because they sincerely believe it is expected of them in many cases. - That's why they continue their religious rituals.

Are you admitting that you misunderstand and/or misrepresented Catholic doctrine?
There is much that actually is doctrine that you disagree with, and we can concentrate on that. The deutero-canonical books are a legitimate dispute, so you can carry on with 'one', as it's not my area of expertise.

 

[thatguy]

The New Testament is The New Covenant that God Promised to the Israelis in the Nevi'im (former Prophets) as mentioned in Jeremiah:
(Genesis 22:1-14)

not according to the jews, either of the time or now.

and all of your "would you raher have stonings...." is total BS and doesn't change the FACT that the christian bible was writtn by men trying to sell their new religion and is to the jewish holy book, what you claim the book of mormon is to the new testament.

you can sit here and judge others for praticing doctrine instituted by men, but you are simply throwing stones from a glass house.

 

[Starman3000m]

Are you admitting that you misunderstand and/or misrepresented Catholic doctrine?
There is much that actually is doctrine that you disagree with, and we can concentrate on that. The deutero-canonical books are a legitimate dispute, so you can carry on with 'one', as it's not my area of expertise.

Actually, what I have been saying all along is that Catholic Doctrine misrepresents True Biblical Christianity, much like the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. The RCC has added/incorporated other texts as supplemental teachings and rituals and traditions that may not be "doctrine" but are made part of the RCC faith that parishioners are to abide by. For example: Saying that certain things like praying to angels (in the other thread) is not a part of doctrine but yet is still OK with the Vatican is very questionable as to how close the RCC follows True Biblical guidance as set forth by Jesus and the Apostles. Saying that praying to saints is not part of doctrine but yet is still OK with the Vatican is also very questionable when compared to Biblical doctrine from the Holy Bible.

BTW: I love you as a dear friend, libby, but, as ItalianScallion once mentioned, it appears you and others are more intent on defending your faith in the Roman Catholic Church teaching rather than accepting the Word of God that is taught in the Holy Bible.

Some points in question:

- Is belief that Peter was the first pope part of Catholic Doctrine, or is this something that can be accepted or rejected by parishioners?

- Is belief that all popes are successors of Peter and that the RCC is the "Mother Church" upon this earth part of Catholic doctrine or is this something that can be accepted or rejected by parishioners?

- Is belief in "purgatory" part of Catholic doctrine, or is this something that can be accepted or rejected by parishioners?

- Is belief in the perpetual virginity and "Ascencion of Mary" part of the RCC doctrine or is this something that parishioners can either accept or reject?

 

[Starman3000m]

not according to the jews, either of the time or now.

Not all Jews. There are many Jewish people from the time of Jesus up through today who placed faith that Jesus was/is the prophesied Messiah.

and all of your "would you raher have stonings...." is total BS and doesn't change the FACT that the christian bible was writtn by men trying to sell their new religion and is to the jewish holy book, what you claim the book of mormon is to the new testament.

Stay calm my friend - no need to get all worked up over this discussion. The fact is that you stated that the Tanakh was the "original" religion and all I pointed out is the truth of how things were and would be today if you were to revert back to the teachings of those days. Take time to read the Tanakh for yourself and see what it was like back then. Even today's Jews that disagree with Jesus would have to agree that they are bound to the Mosaic Laws that call for the capital punishments described including allowing parents to kill an unruly child. That cannot be denied.

you can sit here and judge others for praticing doctrine instituted by men, but you are simply throwing stones from a glass house.

Not judging but pointing others to compare their teachings to the Holy Bible and to the True Saviour of mankind. It is not a specific "church" or denominational sect that saves mankind as they all teach; it is personal faith and trust in the Atoning Blood of Christ, the One who established the New Covenant between God and mankind. That's fine if you and others want to debate that but the fact remains: There is Only One Truth.

Have a good weekend.

 

[thatguy]

Not all Jews. There are many Jewish people from the time of Jesus up through today who placed faith that Jesus was/is the prophesied Messiah.



Stay calm my friend - no need to get all worked up over this discussion. The fact is that you stated that the Tanakh was the "original" religion and all I pointed out is the truth of how things were and would be today if you were to revert back to the teachings of those days. Take time to read the Tanakh for yourself and see what it was like back then. Even today's Jews that disagree with Jesus would have to agree that they are bound to the Mosaic Laws that call for the capital punishments described including allowing parents to kill an unruly child. That cannot be denied.



Not judging but pointing others to compare their teachings to the Holy Bible and to the True Saviour of mankind. It is not a specific "church" or denominational sect that saves mankind as they all teach; it is personal faith and trust in the Atoning Blood of Christ, the One who established the New Covenant between God and mankind. That's fine if you and others want to debate that but the fact remains: There is Only One Truth.

Have a good weekend.

You are completely judging. Just look at your last post to libby. You disagree with the teaching of HER CHURCH and think that you are somehow entitled to tell EVERYONE THAT HAS A DIFFERENT BELIEF that they are wrong about their faith. that is the one and only truth.

as for your repeated distraction of what would be under judaism, it doesnt change the one truth that the new testament is to the Tanakh what the book of mormon is to the bible. additionaly, you dont even try to dispute that the new testament was written by men who were trying to "sell" their new version of judaism. And finally, t get back to the point of the thread, Men met and in a group decided which of these documents of indoctrination would be included into the new testament


PS, i like the way the purple makes it more true, devine even

 

[Starman3000m]

You are completely judging. Just look at your last post to libby. You disagree with the teaching of HER CHURCH and think that you are somehow entitled to tell EVERYONE THAT HAS A DIFFERENT BELIEF that they are wrong about their faith. that is the one and only truth.

OK - be honest here. Do you personally believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the officially sanctioned church on earth exclusively set up by Peter as the first pope? If you answer yes, you must be a Catholic; if you answer no then are you judging libby?

...as for your repeated distraction of what would be under judaism, it doesnt change the one truth that the new testament is to the Tanakh what the book of mormon is to the bible. additionaly, you dont even try to dispute that the new testament was written by men who were trying to "sell" their new version of judaism. And finally, t get back to the point of the thread, Men met and in a group decided which of these documents of indoctrination would be included into the new testament

PS, i like the way the purple makes it more true, devine even

The writers of the New Testament were not trying to "sell" a new version of Judaism. They spoke of their account of the Jewish Messiah being Jesus (Yeshua HaMashiach) and they were all (except John) compensated with persecution and death for saying so. Same happened to all other Jewish people who placed their faith in Jesus. That's hardly trying to sell a point but "tell" what they knew to be true - even if it meant undergoing the persecution.

The New Testament books are comprised of the documented writings of the Apostles who met and were instructed by Jesus personally. That's why those writings were chosen to be included in the New Testament. They speak of the personal experiences of Christ's disciples and relay instructions of how mankind establishes a spiritual one-on-one relationship with God through faith in Christ. There is no need for other books or indoctrinations that establish a "denominational sect" as has developed with all religions adding their own doctrines to the Gospels and claiming exclusivity of having God's Truth. Your complaint should be with those who demand faith in their church rather than faith in Christ.

OK - now please tell us what you believe to be true. And if you say the Tanakh, why are you offended when I say what life would be like if the Tanakh guidelines were implemented today? You should also be aware that the Talmud is very much a supplemental part of Judaic teaching. Will you tell the Orthodox Jews that they should discard the Talmud and rely only on the Tanakh?

and, yes, my friend: There Is Only One Truth.

 

[thatguy]

OK - be honest here. Do you personally believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the officially sanctioned church on earth exclusively set up by Peter as the first pope? If you answer yes, you must be a Catholic; if you answer no then are you judging libby?



The writers of the New Testament were not trying to "sell" a new version of Judaism. They spoke of their account of the Jewish Messiah being Jesus (Yeshua HaMashiach) and they were all (except John) compensated with persecution and death for saying so. Same happened to all other Jewish people who placed their faith in Jesus. That's hardly trying to sell a point but "tell" what they knew to be true - even if it meant undergoing the persecution.
The authorship of the new testament is completely annonymous EXCEPT for the labels that were attributed to them by people in the second century. Strickly speaking none of the new testament says who it was written by in the text.

The New Testament books are comprised of the documented writings of the Apostles who met and were instructed by Jesus personally. That's why those writings were chosen to be included in the New Testament. They speak of the personal experiences of Christ's disciples and relay instructions of how mankind establishes a spiritual one-on-one relationship with God through faith in Christ. There is no need for other books or indoctrinations that establish a "denominational sect" as has developed with all religions adding their own doctrines to the Gospels and claiming exclusivity of having God's Truth. Your complaint should be with those who demand faith in their church rather than faith in Christ.
it is only denominational teachings that have attributed the authorship of these writtings, and most were actually written 50-150 years after jesus's death- making it doubtful that the actual apolstles were the responsible parties
OK - now please tell us what you believe to be true. And if you say the Tanakh, why are you offended when I say what life would be like if the Tanakh guidelines were implemented today? You should also be aware that the Talmud is very much a supplemental part of Judaic teaching. Will you tell the Orthodox Jews that they should discard the Talmud and rely only on the Tanakh?

and, yes, my friend: There Is Only One Truth

the one truth is highlighted above for your convienece
and i am not tlling anybody what to believe or what they should include in their faith. It is you who have decided to judge others and what they choose for their faith. the one truth is that you dont know any better than they do, and that the basis of your faith is just as flawed if it is put under equal scrutiny

 

[Starman3000m]

the one truth is highlighted above for your convienece
and i am not tlling anybody what to believe or what they should include in their faith. It is you who have decided to judge others and what they choose for their faith. the one truth is that you dont know any better than they do, and that the basis of your faith is just as flawed if it is put under equal scrutiny

If you personally knew the location of the only accessible fire escape in a burning building would you not want to tell all the people whose lives are in peril? Or, would you let them follow the cries of others who claimed that the real fire escape was at another location? That is the way it works with God's Truth my friend.

Are you really wanting to search for Truth or do you not care what is and what is not the truth. As stated before: There Is Only One Truth. (John 14:6)

 

[thatguy]

If you personally knew the location of the only accessible fire escape in a burning building would you not want to tell all the people whose lives are in peril? Or, would you let them follow the cries of others who claimed that the real fire escape was at another location? That is the way it works with God's Truth my friend.

Are you really wanting to search for Truth or do you not care what is and what is not the truth. As stated before: There Is Only One Truth. (John 14:6)

you dont personally KNOW anything about the one truth, you believe it, you dont know it.

Libby's path could very well be The One Truth or the muslims' could be......

 

[Starman3000m]

you dont personally KNOW anything about the one truth, you believe it, you dont know it.

Libby's path could very well be The One Truth or the muslims' could be......

People who have a spiritual encounter with the One True God of Salvation definitely do know the Truth. It is the "born-again" change in our lives that Jesus spoke of and is a change that we could not have done on our own. It is God's indwelling Holy Spirit that brings the Peace of God within and that nothing or no one else can ever give.

The basic message of placing faith in God's Plan of Salvation through Jesus is the Truth that God offers to mankind. On the other hand, it is religious dogma, misguided doctrines of organized religions, and false teachings that cause so much divisions and keeps people from knowing Truth. The worse offenders are the organized religions that fleece their flocks and profit from literally selling (as you say) religion to the masses. People follow like sheep and are kept in religious bondage when they swear allegience to their church leaders and not to God.

The truth is that Jesus did not sell anything; He gave His life so that you could receive the riches that God offers mankind through His Divine Mercy.

The New Testament account of Jesus is The Truth. Have you ever really read the New Testament accounts and teachings of Jesus?

 

[thatguy]

People who have a spiritual encounter with the One True God of Salvation definitely do know the Truth. It is the "born-again" change in our lives that Jesus spoke of and is a change that we could not have done on our own. It is God's indwelling Holy Spirit that brings the Peace of God within and that nothing or no one else can ever give.

The basic message of placing faith in God's Plan of Salvation through Jesus is the Truth that God offers to mankind. On the other hand, it is religious dogma, misguided doctrines of organized religions, and false teachings that cause so much divisions and keeps people from knowing Truth. The worse offenders are the organized religions that fleece their flocks and profit from literally selling (as you say) religion to the masses. People follow like sheep and are kept in religious bondage when they swear allegience to their church leaders and not to God.

The truth is that Jesus did not sell anything; He gave His life so that you could receive the riches that God offers mankind through His Divine Mercy.

The New Testament account of Jesus is The Truth. Have you ever really read the New Testament accounts and teachings of Jesus?

you wanting it to be true doesn't make it so

you having faith that it is the truth isn't knowing

 

[Starman3000m]

you wanting it to be true doesn't make it so

you having faith that it is the truth isn't knowing

It's more than faith, my friend, it is the personal encounter through God's Divine intervention that confirmed the New Testamnet account that Jesus is The Son of God. Something many people deny, but then again, many denied Him and mocked His claim to be The Son of God. Not all roads lead to God - there is only One Way and One Truth.

I would hope that you would take the time to read the New Testament accounts of Jesus and decide for yourself from that point. Your argument about what is Truth is actually not with me but with Jesus' claim to be the Saviour of mankind and the door to Salvation. As stated, people who have had a spiritual encounter with God's presence of His Holy Spirit are revealed The Truth. Have you ever really read the New Testament accounts?

With so many religions and philosophical ideologies in the world, perhaps you can share what your concept of the Truth really is since There Is Only One Truth.

What do you belive to be true?

 

[libby]

Every single devoutly religious person can make all of the statements that you are making as evidence that his/her particular brand of faith is the one Truth.
Joseph Smith claims to have had an encounter with God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. He claims something far more compelling than you do, a face to face encounter. Just because he makes such a claim does not make the gospel of the LDS church true, and neither does it for you.
If you are sincerely loving Jesus Christ and doing what you believe to be right, then I believe by His Merits you will go to Heaven.
I also believe a Muslim, who is truly seeking God, but somehow misses the boat, will see Heaven, too.