In your opinion, are people basically

[Tonio]

Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Verses like that are a big reason why I'm not a fundamentalist. That particular verse seems to imply that the human race doesn't deserve to exist.

 

[vraiblonde]

There is a BIG difference between good and "not bad".

I think with humans and all their quirks, "not bad" is about the best you'll get out of most of them. And that works for me. :shrug:

 

[2ndAmendment]

It is selfish to breathe. If I don't breathe, my most basic value is not being satified and I die. It is selfish to find a companion. If I don't have companions in life, friends, lovers, etc., then my most basic value (not to be alone, which is Biblical) is not being satified, and I die inside.

Sorry. Lovers outside of marriage is not Biblical.

 

[sleuth]

That is the problem. There is an absolute Truth, but most people choose to ignore it because it does not fit in with their selfishness.

2A, I am not disputing whether there is an absolute truth.
But I don't see how my argument and the "Biblical Life" contradict each other here.

In the Bible, God tells us what to value. Correct?
And if our values are in agreement with God's, and we actively sustain those values, then we are living the Biblical Lifestyle.

I dislike the word morality, because it has been so perverted.
That's why I don't like the question as posed in this poll.

People tend to reflect whatever they value. If they value Christ and his teachings, their lives should reflect it.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Verses like that are a big reason why I'm not a fundamentalist. That particular verse seems to imply that the human race doesn't deserve to exist.

If your theology disagrees with scripture, then you need to take a long hard look at your theology. It is not God's word that is wrong.

 

[vraiblonde]

There is an absolute Truth,

I do not believe there is such a thing as "absolute truth". Or if there is, it's very rare. Most "truth" is colored by the perceptions of the various humans involved.

 

[sleuth]

Sorry. Lovers outside of marriage is not Biblical.

That's not what I meant.
Come on 2A. I think you knew what I meant... and you're just picking at my words to prove a point.

By lovers, I meant wives and husbands. Boyfriends and girlfriends en route to marriage (so long as they don't fornicate). Companions.

 

[vraiblonde]

If your theology disagrees with scripture, then you need to take a long hard look at your theology. It is not God's word that is wrong.

That is your truth, not mine. Therefore it's not absolute.

 

[Tonio]

If your theology disagrees with scripture, then you need to take a long hard look at your theology. It is not God's word that is wrong.

I don't believe that the Bible is literally true. For one thing, I believe it's very rare when humans can retell a version of events that squares with what actually happened. See Vrai's point about perceptions. I think that's why the New Testament has four Gospels, and I understand there were other Gospels circulating in the early days of the Church.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I do not believe there is such a thing as "absolute truth". Or if there is, it's very rare. Most "truth" is colored by the perceptions of the various humans involved.

But then you are an admitted atheist, so why would I accept your definition of truth or lack of it? I am a Christian and accept God's word, the Bible, as absolute truth. As you have said, there is no room for discussion between atheists and Christians or those that believe in any god on topics of truth and God. Neither are willing to compromise their position.

 

[2ndAmendment]

I don't believe that the Bible is literally true. For one thing, I believe it's very rare when humans can retell a version of events that squares with what actually happened. See Vrai's point about perceptions. I think that's why the New Testament has four Gospels, and I understand there were other Gospels circulating in the early days of the Church.

The validity of the Bible and the correctness of the translation has been discussed in this forum before.http://forums.somd.com/showthread.php?p=703406#post703406
Whether you accept God's word as correct or not has no effect as to whether it is Truth or not. Many people do not accept God's word or His plan of salvation. It is called free will. You have it. You use it. I choose to accept God at His word; I'm just stupid that way, but I would rather be a fool for Christ that the smartest person on earth.

 

[2ndAmendment]

That is your truth, not mine. Therefore it's not absolute.

Because you don't accept it does not make it so. Whether Truth is absolute or not has to do with the validity of the information not whether someone believes it or not.

 

[Tonio]

2nd, this isn't necessarily directed at you, but I don't understand why any person would want everyone to hold the same religious beliefs as himself or herself.

 

[tlatchaw]

2nd, this isn't necessarily directed at you, but I don't understand why any person would want everyone to hold the same religious beliefs as himself or herself.

Tonio, I may be dense but I don't think I understand you point. Why would I want to hold the same religious beliefs as myself? Do I have any other choice? Please 'splain.

 

[2ndAmendment]

2nd, this isn't necessarily directed at you, but I don't understand why any person would want everyone to hold the same religious beliefs as himself or herself.

I have never wanted anyone to follow me or what I say. I do want everyone to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord, read the Bible and pray for wisdom.

James 1:4-6
4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

I believe the Bible is true. It is the word of God.

2 Timothy 3:12-17
12In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If you think any part of the Bible is not true, then why do you believe any of it?

 

[Tonio]

Tonio, I may be dense but I don't think I understand you point. Why would I want to hold the same religious beliefs as myself? Do I have any other choice? Please 'splain.

Sorry, I should have said "everyone else." I mean I don't understand the impulse behind evangelism in any religion.

 

[tlatchaw]

Sorry, I should have said "everyone else." I mean I don't understand the impulse behind evangelism in any religion.

Oh! I see your point now.

Well, my beliefs are motivated by love for my fellow man (human being, not to be sexist here). I believe that each of us can be set right with God by believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and accepting the gift of salvation.

If I don't believe in that firmly enough to take the time to say so then I'm literally telling you to go to Hell. And really mean it. Not just because I was upset with you but because I didn't care. That's not what the Bible teaches us.

Sorry to get preachy, I hope I haven't run you off.

 

[2ndAmendment]

To many people that call themselves Christians are like those of the church in Laodicea.

Revelation 3:14-22
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

They are not hot or cold. They are not "on fire" for God or totally against God. What does Jesus say about them? "I am about to spit you out of my mouth". He doesn't want them if they can't make up their mind whether they want to really follow Him.

 

[2ndAmendment]

Sorry, I should have said "everyone else." I mean I don't understand the impulse behind evangelism in any religion.

We proclaim Jesus because we are instructed to.

Mark 16:15
15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

To do otherwise would be disobedient and would, as tlatchaw wrote, "literally telling you to go to Hell" since I wouldn't care enough about others to tell them the good news of salvation.

 

[justhangn]

You miss my meaning.

What I mean is... the reason I do things for other people is because that person's happiness is something that makes me happy.

When you make a donation to charity, why do you do it?
Is it because it gives you a warm fuzzy? Can you truly say that you've ever done anything that didn't involve a little kickback, no matter how small, for yourself?

Believe me, I totally understood your meaning and my statement still stands.


If I help someone, it's because they needed the hand and I don't mind helping someone that's helping themselves but I refuse to help people who are just begging to be helped.

I do what I can for who I can and expect nothing in return, their attitude during said event will dictate if I help them again. :shrug: