In your opinion, are people basically

Are people basically

  • Good most of the time

    Votes: 10 29.4%
  • Morally Indifferent

    Votes: 11 32.4%
  • Bad when they feel they can get away with it

    Votes: 9 26.5%
  • Bad most of the time

    Votes: 4 11.8%

  • Total voters
    34

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
tlatchaw said:
If I don't believe in that firmly enough to take the time to say so then I'm literally telling you to go to Hell. And really mean it. Not just because I was upset with you but because I didn't care. That's not what the Bible teaches us.
I can appreciate that. Still, from some believers I've met, it doesn't come across like they honestly care about my soul. It comes across like anyone who doesn't share their beliefs is worthless. There's no way to please this type of believer--to them, everything about your life is sinful.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
It comes across like anyone who doesn't share their beliefs is worthless. There's no way to please this type of believer--to them, everything about your life is sinful.
If I come across that way, I do not mean to. I believe the Bible. I find absolutely no contradictions in it. I want others to find Jesus and accept Him as Savior and Lord. I want others to read the Bible. I do not want anyone to accept my word for what the Bible says. When I state something, I usually back it up with a quote with the source so others can read for themselves. I certainly don't think everything about life is sinful. I do know that everyone, including me, is a sinner.

I know many people call themselves Christian. I also know what the Bible says.
Matthew 7:21-23
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Jesus says Himself that many that say they are Christians do not follow Him truly and are lost. I don't want to be among those nor do I want anyone else to be either. Jesus said the way is narrow.
Matthew 7:13-14
13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
I hope no one is lost.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
justhangn said:
If I help someone, it's because they needed the hand and I don't mind helping someone that's helping themselves but I refuse to help people who are just begging to be helped.
Because it feels better to help someone who deserves it rather than someone who doesn't. So you DO get something out of it.

What would be truly selfless would be to help someone when they don't deserve it, don't appreciate it and you feel like hell after you do it. But people rarely do that.
 

Sharon

* * * * * * * * *
Staff member
PREMO Member
vraiblonde said:
What would be truly selfless would be to help someone when they don't deserve it, don't appreciate it and you feel like hell after you do it.

Do you realize you just described parents helping their teenagers? :roflmao:
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
sleuth said:
I think most people are selfish.
But then I think that's good, so long as your selfishness doesn't come to the point of greed or ruthlessness.

I'm selfish and proud of it.
But that obviates the meaning of everything like charity, altruism and the like. It means words like "unselfish" and "selfless" are bereft of meaning.

I used to argue something along the same lines. Do a good deed? It's because it makes you *feel* good. Don't feel good? You're assuaging *guilt*, so you're making yourself feel better. No, not that? Oh - you're a *masochist* - and thus you're doing it to just *feel* better.

This is known as "finding the right reason". You can always find a reason, good or bad, for anyone's actions. Do I love my wife because of how she makes ME feel, or because I WANT to feel that way? You can nuts second-guessing motives.

This was back in my teen-age and college years. I realize it just makes more sense to take it at face value. It may look as though I've never considered your point of view, but I have. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 
J

justhangn

Guest
vraiblonde said:
What would be truly selfless would be to help someone when they don't deserve it, don't appreciate it and you feel like hell after you do it. But people rarely do that.


I refuse to help those that are just plain lazy and taking advantage of others.......they need a good dose of CO2......
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Sharon said:
Do you realize you just described parents helping their teenagers?
And good parenting is the ultimate selfless act. But you do get a reward later when they grow up and quit being ungrateful slobs. Or at least that's the goal. :lol:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
The vast majority of us are born good...

...we laugh, we like to play, like to be around other people.

BUT we are human and need to be taught to share, to be nice, to be considerate, to be responsible.

We're a good animal who can be trained.

Lousy upbringing often destroys us because we are typically weak if left alone. Backbone is something else that can be taught.
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
vraiblonde said:
Because it feels better to help someone who deserves it rather than someone who doesn't. So you DO get something out of it.

What would be truly selfless would be to help someone when they don't deserve it, don't appreciate it and you feel like hell after you do it. But people rarely do that.
:yeahthat:
 

sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
SamSpade said:
But that obviates the meaning of everything like charity, altruism and the like. It means words like "unselfish" and "selfless" are bereft of meaning.

I used to argue something along the same lines. Do a good deed? It's because it makes you *feel* good. Don't feel good? You're assuaging *guilt*, so you're making yourself feel better. No, not that? Oh - you're a *masochist* - and thus you're doing it to just *feel* better.

This is known as "finding the right reason". You can always find a reason, good or bad, for anyone's actions. Do I love my wife because of how she makes ME feel, or because I WANT to feel that way? You can nuts second-guessing motives.

This was back in my teen-age and college years. I realize it just makes more sense to take it at face value. It may look as though I've never considered your point of view, but I have. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Hang on a sec... I need to look up the word "obviate". :lol:
.
.
.
Ok. Yes... you're correct. This POV does obviate words like "Charity" and "Selfless".
And I don't see a problem with that. :biggrin: I still do things because I get something, even though it may not even be obvious to myself, out of it.

From one of my favorite authors (a condensed version):
Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than ikts neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

link to the condensed version: http://www.working-minds.com/galtmini.htm
 
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sleuth

Livin' Like Thanksgivin'
vraiblonde said:
And good parenting is the ultimate selfless act. But you do get a reward later when they grow up and quit being ungrateful slobs. Or at least that's the goal. :lol:

Actually, I don't believe it is a selfless act.

I read an essay once about it, and I have to agree with it. But then... I don't have children, so I'll defer to the parents here to express whether they agree with it.

Some excerpts:
The nature of children, their dependence on adults, dictates that parents consciously commit about 20 years of responsibility to their offspring. This long term obligation is part and parcel of whatever value children may represent to the individual. What values could possibly offset this price, and can these values be rational?

There are indeed important rational values to be had. One's children can be a precious metaphysical expression of a perfect romantic relationship. A concretized manifestation of merged characteristics of two people who value each other highly. Similar to the romantic relationship itself, but different in form and expression, children can serve to provide what Nathaniel Branden refers to as psychological visibility. Children's presence in a relationship can serve both as a constant reminder of the admirable characteristics of the parents, who as self-actualized adults value themselves, as well as a symbol of the bond, the integration, of the two individuals' lives. Naturally, children are also individuals and will not always reflect the parent's values. But even this, the expression of individuality and free will, can and should be a value to parents; it affirms their objectivist philosophy and demonstrates their highest value, individual human life.

Most (intentional) parents obtain great value from teaching and molding their children, and from just watching human life, this most precious miracle, evolve and flourish. We can also learn much both through the process of teaching our children, and by understanding their often fresh, innocent perspectives of life. This innocence, as well as children's often uninhibited display of love, can be a valuable source of pleasure, provided that one doesn't become dependent on unconditional love.

There is another, more abstract, value to the concept of family. Human civilization and the highs it has and can achieve are not possible without the accumulation of knowledge passed from one generation to the next. This is to say nothing of the obvious necessity of successful human reproduction without which we would not even be here. Children and family represent in an abstract, sense-of-life manner the importance and value of this aspect of being human. ... Long-term intellectual evolution can be seen as a basic moral principle that enables improved human survival.

...

To summarize, there are many values that children may represent to us. The rational choice to have children and the assessment of their value to us must be done in the context of the long term commitment and conscious appreciation of both the pleasures and "sacrifices" raising children entails. The is no guarantee that we will always love our children or that they will love us. By the choice to have children we assume responsibility for their existential and emotional support, their safety and education for the long term. If the projected values we obtain from having them substantially outweighs the negatives, then there is no sacrifice. The fact that there are no guarantees, is no different to "sacrificing" free time or luxuries to a business venture which is projected to be of great value to us. Irrespective of the outcome, we should do our best to get the most out of the building experience. Life is about the journeys as much as the destinations.

link to the whole essay: http://rous.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/PeterVoss/Children.html
 

pixiegirl

Cleopatra Jones
Fruitcake Lady said:
That's where I find you Morally indifferent.

This what's in it for me attitude is lazy and selfish. No wonder why there are all of these problem kids. I think that attitude sucks and is a huge downfall to our falling society.

:yeahthat: I have done several things in my life that made me feel like crapola simply for someone else's benefit. People absolutely need to stop being so selfish. Society is not just falling; we're totally regressing back to our most basic instincts. Soon enough we'll be living like a pack of wolves.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
pixiegirl said:
I have done several things in my life that made me feel like crapola simply for someone else's benefit.
Give me an example. Because I hold with the theory that people do things for others because there is something in it for them, even if it's just knowing you did something nice for someone else.
 
K

Kain99

Guest
vraiblonde said:
Give me an example. Because I hold with the theory that people do things for others because there is something in it for them, even if it's just knowing you did something nice for someone else.
I disagree.... I know people who have gone above and beyond all expectations without expecting anything in return. Quite literally, nothing in it for them. A few of them right here on SOMD. I do not follow your thought process and am thankful not to be jaded. :razz:
 

pixiegirl

Cleopatra Jones
vraiblonde said:
Give me an example. Because I hold with the theory that people do things for others because there is something in it for them, even if it's just knowing you did something nice for someone else.

I married my ex husband even though I didn't want to because a) I was trying to do right by my son and b) my momma.

I have yet to take him back to court for child support because I wanted to keep the waters calm for Noah's sake.

I have since learned the error of my ways in both cases. But the fact is I did it for someone elses sake; got nothing at all out of it especially not peace of mind and it has taught me nothing but the need to be more selfish.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
pixiegirl said:
I married my ex husband even though I didn't want to because a) I was trying to do right by my son and b) my momma.
So you got a pleased mother and did something you thought was good for your son. You got something out of it.

I have yet to take him back to court for child support because I wanted to keep the waters calm for Noah's sake.
And you got the happiness of not dragging your child through an ugly situation. You got something out of it.

I have since learned the error of my ways in both cases. But the fact is I did it for someone elses sake; got nothing at all out of it especially not peace of mind and it has taught me nothing but the need to be more selfish.
But you did get something out of it, as I have shown above. It might not have been what you WANTED, but you did in fact get something.
Honestly, I fail to see what is so hard to understand or so cynical about this concept. :confused:
 
K

Kain99

Guest
I feel ya Pix! I was in Foodlion today behind this young girl. Her baby was screaming bloody murder! Her check wasn't going through. She was shaking and looked like she was going to cry.

I offered to hold her baby....did... (what cutie!) The baby started to smile and as soon as I lifted her up to my shoulder................................... You guessed it! Strange baby, blew chunks all over my best suit!

You really don't always get a pay off. :banana:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Kain99 said:
You really don't always get a pay off.
But you're obviously telling us about it because you know you did something nice for someone else, therefore you're getting the pleasure of us knowing you did a good deed. So you're getting something out of it.
 
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