Interesting Take on Blacks

[Bruzilla]

I had TCM on the TV while I was working at my desk, and my wife was watching "Gone With The Wind". After GWTW ended a movie called "Way Down South" came on. The host on TCM was talking about the movie, which deals with a plantation owner facing the prospect of having to sell his slaves and the slaves concerns with being sold, and he and a guest commentator were talking about how the movie could hardly be considered realistic as the slaves show no real concern about leaving their "kind and friendly" owners... just concern about having to go somewhere else. They talked about how a more realistic view of slavery would be that the slaves were constantly trying to break away from slavery and would be far mroe preoccupied with freedom than a new owner.

I was thinking about those comments and how they apply to the modern day, and I found myself disagreeing with them. Slaves were kept people in that they were fed, clothed, and housed. Granted their conditions were horrible, but they weren't much worse than the way most inner-city blacks live today. The only difference is that they are kept by the government rather than plantation owners. And how many modern kept blacks are constatntly striving to escape their conditions compared to how many who are willing to take whatever is handed to them because they have grown comfortable?

My guess is that most slaves acted like most inner-city blacks today. They were primarily interested in maintaining a status-quo and not seeking "freedom" or wanting to exercise any right to follow their own pursuits.

 

[Nickel]

Slaves were kept people in that they were fed, clothed, and housed. Granted their conditions were horrible, but they weren't much worse than the way most inner-city blacks live today.

That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.

 

[aps45819]

That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.

Why? I think it's a good analagy. Why else would someone choose to live in squallar and think the best way to improve their status is to pop out more chillins for da massa?

 

[SamSpade]

I spent about ten years of my life in a controlling, fundamentalist cult. People often ask "why didn't you leave?" - to which I usually answer something like "well I'm not WITH them now, so I guess I did". But the reasons why I stayed and the reasons why I left can be complex - they range from self-doubt, economics, a place to go, trust, fear, loneliness - and the fact that it really wasn't so terrible some of the time.

Most ex-members liken the whole turmoil and experience of leaving a cult to a situation some of us are familiar with - an abused spouse. *WHY* do they linger? Why do they defend the abuser? Why do they go back? The psychology is the same almost across the board.

I think with slavery, the psychology is similar - many fled, many stayed even though they were unhappy. Life can be miserable, but for some it takes a lot to get them to take the risks. Once it starts, the flow can be huge - the church that I was in began to see an outright EXODUS once the Internet became widespread, and they began to learn about others who had left. By best estimates, 3/4 of all those who were ever members have eventually left - but this number was SMALL when people didn't know they had options.

I think this happens elsewhere - once people become aware of options they have, they're more likely to take the risks.

 

[aps45819]

I think this happens elsewhere - once people become aware of options they have, they're more likely to take the risks.

Very true. The risk of embarking on a new way of life can be very intimidating. Living in pain and misery becomes "normal".

 

[Penn]

I'm of the opinion this is entirely accurate.....

"My guess is that most slaves acted like most inner-city blacks today. They were primarily interested in maintaining a status-quo and not seeking "freedom" or wanting to exercise any right to follow their own pursuits."


I'm not sure of the actual term for this, but I have heard of it before. Something to do with perpetuating the lifestyle, through generations.

"Mama grew up that way - just as her mama did, and just as her mama did", etc.

People go through life not realizing their options , I guess. They may not be happy with what they've got, but they're unable to change it, for whatever reason.<!-- / message -->

 

[harleygirl]

I spent about ten years of my life in a controlling, fundamentalist cult. People often ask "why didn't you leave?" - to which I usually answer something like "well I'm not WITH them now, so I guess I did". But the reasons why I stayed and the reasons why I left can be complex - they range from self-doubt, economics, a place to go, trust, fear, loneliness - and the fact that it really wasn't so terrible some of the time.

Most ex-members liken the whole turmoil and experience of leaving a cult to a situation some of us are familiar with - an abused spouse. *WHY* do they linger? Why do they defend the abuser? Why do they go back? The psychology is the same almost across the board.

I think with slavery, the psychology is similar - many fled, many stayed even though they were unhappy. Life can be miserable, but for some it takes a lot to get them to take the risks. Once it starts, the flow can be huge - the church that I was in began to see an outright EXODUS once the Internet became widespread, and they began to learn about others who had left. By best estimates, 3/4 of all those who were ever members have eventually left - but this number was SMALL when people didn't know they had options.

I think this happens elsewhere - once people become aware of options they have, they're more likely to take the risks.

Wow Sam, good for you for leaving!! Most people feel that the reason people get sucked into these fundamentalist cults are because they lack intelligence, just reading your posts prove that theory is incorrect.

 

[dustin]

Fear of the unknown, control since birth. I liken it to the Matrix. What is real? How does one define real? Most slaves were probably oblivious to the life which was being denied.

Remember, owners denied their slaves basic reading and writing skills in an attempt to blind them from the real world around them.

 

[mAlice]

The problem with this whole analogy is that it's being applied only to blacks.

 

[SamSpade]

Wow Sam, good for you for leaving!! Most people feel that the reason people get sucked into these fundamentalist cults are because they lack intelligence, just reading your posts prove that theory is incorrect.

Ten years in, I can assure you that intelligence is not the problem - every study I've read in the 17 years since I left says that your average cult member scores a little higher than average. Most of my roommates were fellow engineers and scientists. Since I spent a lot of my time in that cult in Boston, they were also Harvard and MIT graduates. One of the elders had his PhD in plasma physics (although he couldn't play chess worth a damn).

On a forum that I've participated in for about ten years, this has been discussed ad nauseam - and there's generally a set of types of persons drawn to cults. The most common thread they all possess is *idealism*, a desire to solve the world's problems and a belief that the answers are actually very simple. Some of the guys I knew could run rings around Jesuit scholars with their knowledge - one buddy of mine had the entire New Testament *memorized* - in the original GREEK. He belonged to a society that memorizes Homer in the original Greek.

But - it also attracts many other types as well - certainly, religious folks who yearn for something more - non-religious folks who are curious and are turned off by the conventional religions - restless souls looking for direction - ambitious, gregarious types. I think one of the weirdest experiences was that prior to being a member of the cult, there was no telling what they'd been like in a former life. It eventually came as no surprise that you were just as likely to be singing hymns next to a former gang-banger, former hooker, former drug dealer as you were an investment banker, surgeon or college professor. It DID have its good selling points.

What MADE it a cult however, was not that it started out on an idiotic premise with ridiculous beliefs - but rather an evolution from a desire to serve God that grew into a controlling, paranoid police state of shepherds keeping each other "accountable". One observer said it went from the power of love to the love of power. I have about a dozen books I've read on cults - and they usually start with good intentions. It's just that they tend to be more into self-preservation than doing what they set out to do at first. Conformity actually became an end in itself.

 

[dustin]

The problem with this whole analogy is that it's being applied only to blacks.

noone is perfect, not even Bruzilla

 

[Tonio]

I spent about ten years of my life in a controlling, fundamentalist cult. People often ask "why didn't you leave?" - to which I usually answer something like "well I'm not WITH them now, so I guess I did". But the reasons why I stayed and the reasons why I left can be complex - they range from self-doubt, economics, a place to go, trust, fear, loneliness - and the fact that it really wasn't so terrible some of the time.

Most ex-members liken the whole turmoil and experience of leaving a cult to a situation some of us are familiar with - an abused spouse. *WHY* do they linger? Why do they defend the abuser? Why do they go back? The psychology is the same almost across the board.

I think with slavery, the psychology is similar - many fled, many stayed even though they were unhappy. Life can be miserable, but for some it takes a lot to get them to take the risks. Once it starts, the flow can be huge - the church that I was in began to see an outright EXODUS once the Internet became widespread, and they began to learn about others who had left. By best estimates, 3/4 of all those who were ever members have eventually left - but this number was SMALL when people didn't know they had options.

I think this happens elsewhere - once people become aware of options they have, they're more likely to take the risks.

Thanks so much for your post, Sam. The mindset you describe could also apply to people raised in abusive families. I think it might also apply, to a lesser degree, to people obsessed with conspiracy theories.

 

[Hessian]

A powerful & dangerous thread....

To broach this issue in a public forum (ie a university where open discussion should be encouraged) would be the impetus for a riot.
However...it should be a decent discussion.

I have another analogy to throw out: Look at the reaction of the Jews in the Labor camps under Nazi rule--when a new order came down for a relocation...some kind of major change in schedule--the victims responded in panic/fear: Even if they lived in utter misery----it was routine, and routine is a psychological safety zone.

Slaves in the Mid-Atlantic during the Antebellum saw a noticeable decline in number as Tobacco fell in value and cotton was economically untenable. Thus the fear was: being "Sold South"...as the value of slaves steadily rose in the Deep south.
CHANGE IS NOT GOOD!
(why did Frederick Douglas "steal himself?" in the 1840's?)

Sad thought of the day: 75% of all Slave Families were intact with ready Fictive relatives willing to help out (ie "Aunt Emma"...non kin but has the role)
What is the statistic today?



**Sam...please consider coming back to the Dharma initiative, Hanso needs you.

 

[Tonio]

I have another analogy to throw out: Look at the reaction of the Jews in the Labor camps under Nazi rule--when a new order came down for a relocation...some kind of major change in schedule--the victims responded in panic/fear: Even if they lived in utter misery----it was routine, and routine is a psychological safety zone.

You have something there. Writers such as black columnist William Raspberry say that the black community in America seems to have post-traumatic stress disorder. It shows up as a combination of hopelessness and distrust of authority. For many blacks, the "psychological safety zone" must involve self-identification as victims.

**Sam...please consider coming back to the Dharma initiative, Hanso needs you.

Is "Lost" any good? I have never seen the show. Most of my knowledge about the show comes from Elliott Segal's morning show on DC101.

 

[Bustem' Down]

Anyone remember Disney's Briar Rabbit, Briar Fox, and Briar Bear? Now that was racist.

 

[Bruzilla]

noone is perfect, not even Bruzilla

That's the truth! If I were perfect I wouldn't be hanging out with you guys... I would be over posting on DU!

 

[Bruzilla]

The problem with this whole analogy is that it's being applied only to blacks.

I think the focus is on blacks because we really don't have any other large segment of the population in this country that's "kept". We have thousands of dead-broke immigrants coming in (legally and illegally) from Mexico, Asia, etc., but these people never developed that kept mentality in their home country, so when the get here they sieze opportunity and run with it. You can consider native americans, but they are a pretty small population sample.

On a behavioral level you could also include white people in Appalachia, but those folks get by on their own for the most part and don't heavily rely on government support. They live in a clapboard shack, but it's a shack that they built and that they call their own. They live on hunted and grown food, but it's food that they hunted and grew. I would never want to live like that, but I would guess there's a good bit of pride in relying on yourself to get by that keeps them there.

 

[Nupe2]

Bruzilla:

This is a heavy topic and I've got a lot of work to do today (despite the meetings). To be brief, I agree with Nickel's comment. Having said that, there is a degree of truth in some of your thoughts insofar as slavery existed many years longer than "freedom" for blacks in this country. So yes, there is a "mentality" that may have become ingrained in prior generations of Blacks who were either slaves themselves or were within one generation of slavery. That doesn't mean that later generations are incapable of rising above this self-limiting mindset. Many have.

In speaking from the general to the specific, I was born and raised in "the inner city" and most in my family have long since discarded this "slave mentality" and have succeeded in this society despite obstacles that some of our less "liberal" fellow Americans would place in front of us. It has been ingrained in us since day one that education, skills, common sense, dignity and faith are tools to respect, success (however that is measured) and increased opportunity.

The more I have learned about slavery, the more I'm amazed at the courage it took for freed blacks to move beyond it. I think about the promise of Reconstruction and the compromise that destroyed it and I wonder how we've survived. I too watched Gone with the Wind last night. I can't imagine what living in that evil society was like. I've visited a slave graveyard where adjacent to those places, little more than mounds of earth and stones, were elaborate headstones erected by the slaveowner in the memory of HORSES! The slaveowner in this instance was James Madison, the fourth President of the United States. It brought tears to my eyes when I saw it.

I don't think you understand the pain that lingers for a lot of Black Folk who aware of their history in this country. Nevertheless, we all need to continue to move on. Every day when I come to work I think about the people that died to provide me with the opportunity to get an education, a career and degree of freedom undreamed of by my great-great grandparents. More people than you know carry this with them every day. Some use it to spur them on while others chose to ignore it. So no, I don't think inner city blacks are like slaves, some have made choices to remain where they are, some lack sufficient education, skills and direction and are simply unable to move beyond their current locales. Others view it simply as home. Slaves had no such choices. They were forceably removed from their native land and deposited in a hostile and foreign environment, stripped of their native culture, language and beliefs and considered chattle by their "owners." As bad as things might be at any given time in this country for Black people, there is absolutely no substantial correllation to that shameful institution.

 

[sushisamba]

Fear of the unknown, control since birth. I liken it to the Matrix. What is real? How does one define real? Most slaves were probably oblivious to the life which was being denied.

Remember, owners denied their slaves basic reading and writing skills in an attempt to blind them from the real world around them.

Yep, and before the Women's Movement, men did it to women.

 

[vraiblonde]

The problem with this whole analogy is that it's being applied only to blacks.

True - it's not a black thing or a white thing. It's a human nature thing. People are basically lazy and will take the path of least resistance.

Government slavery is not specific to blacks - those bastards will try to enslave anyone who'll let them. It just so happens that the "black leadership" has a vested interest in keeping that slave mentality - otherwise they would become obsolete.

Whites take freedom for granted - we give it very little day-to-day thought.

Blacks have been trained by the media not to take their freedom for granted - they have dozens of baiters on TV every single day telling them that they are only a hair away from picking cotton on some plantation or mammying for Miss Scarlett.