Iran and the bomb...

[Larry Gude]

Ok...

Refer to post #15. You wouldn't be asking the question if you didn't have doubts. but I can see it now, Bush sits back and says "it's none of our business Israel, you deal with it". Bomb goes off and everyone jumps on Bush about how much of a failure he is for failing to address the Iran problem. Now tens of thousands of Israelis are dead.

And don't forget about this quote by Ahmadinejad:



It wont necessarily have to come from Iran directly. How hard would it be to have Hamas or al Qaeda do their dirty work?

...so, seeings how you won't saying, I'll infer that our endless involvement in the region, Carter, Clinton, both Bush's have been a net benefit and we should just keep on playing a role.

 

[PsyOps]

Ok so, seeings how you won't saying, I'll infer that our endless involvement in the region, Carter, Clinton, both Bush's have been a net benefit and we should just keep on playing a role.

Okay... did you miss this or what?

I think they will whether it be directly or through their surogates,... yes they will.

Endless involvement? Why aren't you screaming about our endless involvement in Korea, Japan, Europe? I mean the uncertainty and violence our troops existed under in Berlin for decades surely stands as an example of how perseverance wins the day. Outside of that, what role should we play in the middle east? Don’t we have a responsibility to fix what we broke?

 

[Baja28]

After dating two Iranian men I have no fear of their former homeland having the bomb.

Why?

Persian men have no sense of direction. If only I had recordings of the many, many cell phone conversations where they had both gotten lost. One could not figure out (no lie) how to stay traveling on the Beltway.

The akhoonds will fire a missle at Israel and end up wiping Kyrgystan off the map.

Stick to your day job. You'll starve as a comedian.

 

[Hessian]

The ideal situation for Iran..

is to farm out those nuclear materials to whoever will do their bidding. The goal will be to do the shell game without the watchful eye of the UN inspectors. To get a nuke to detonate (with only the slightest trace of a hint ahead of time in some rambling riddle) and kill 100,000 Israelis (or Americans-remember: we have "great Satan" status)...they would love to shrug their shoulders and say...

"What? we didn't do that! How dare you accuse the lowly servants of Allah! Our peaceful religion doesn't allow for nuclear weapons!"

And what happens to the world markets? Oil prices? Dollar values?...one nuke would help cause a huge world depression--and since they live in general squalor: they say: who cares?

America has lost the initiative to do any more "first strikes" and I believe the majority of the world would clamor that we deserved it so...we would be warned severely about retaliating. Depending on who is in office, they might cave in to that pressure and then spend the next 200 years cleaning up the mess.

 

[PsyOps]

is to farm out those nuclear materials to whoever will do their bidding. The goal will be to do the shell game without the watchful eye of the UN inspectors. To get a nuke to detonate (with only the slightest trace of a hint ahead of time in some rambling riddle) and kill 100,000 Israelis (or Americans-remember: we have "great Satan" status)...they would love to shrug their shoulders and say...

"What? we didn't do that! How dare you accuse the lowly servants of Allah! Our peaceful religion doesn't allow for nuclear weapons!"

And what happens to the world markets? Oil prices? Dollar values?...one nuke would help cause a huge world depression--and since they live in general squalor: they say: who cares?

America has lost the initiative to do any more "first strikes" and I believe the majority of the world would clamor that we deserved it so...we would be warned severely about retaliating. Depending on who is in office, they might cave in to that pressure and then spend the next 200 years cleaning up the mess.

In today's world of political hatred, when such an event can't be proven the US will be blamed for doing it in order to start another war. And I guess it better happen soon or they wont have Bush to blame for it.

 

[Hessian]

Bin Laden...

visualized an economic collapse. He was no idiot. To strike at economic targets AND our seat of government would create a sustained panic in the world markets.

They do not want to contaminate thousands of square miles: they only want to create panic,...and let that do the damage: It us 8 years to dig out of the Great Depression, and we plunged into debt doing it. Now, we are VERY deeply in debt and do not have the morality or work ethic or funds to dig us out....nor the world's sympathy.
The radicals want to strike hard, fast, and soon: just to watch the chief protector of Israel flop around in throws of agony for a dozen years while Islam surges into Europe & Asia & Africa.---and we won't be able to stop it: militarily or economically.

 

[Larry Gude]

I would like...

Okay... did you miss this or what?



Endless involvement? Why aren't you screaming about our endless involvement in Korea, Japan, Europe? I mean the uncertainty and violence our troops existed under in Berlin for decades surely stands as an example of how perseverance wins the day. Outside of that, what role should we play in the middle east? Don’t we have a responsibility to fix what we broke?

...some day, given the amount of correspondence we share, that you'd have a basic understanding of my positions. We should have LONG ago gotten out of Korea. Our involvements in Japan and Europe share a common trait; we won. Therefore you can rationally move on to rebuilding that which you defeated.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we have not only NOT defeated the enemy we actively avoid doing so. Iran attacking ONE US trooper is an act of WAR. There are any number of extra governmental folks we've allowed to set up shop. You can NOT and will NOT defeat an enemy by not defeating them.

Bush had the time and resources to get on with it and he failed. He is not king. He does not get to be CIC for life. You get your shot in this country and then we move on.

If McCain chooses to pursue the basic surge and hope strategy that Bush chose, then we'll probably have more of the same; on going extra governmental entities and profound influence by Iran. If Obama actually makes us get out, good for him. Iraqi's have their pieces of a nation to run.

We've also been down the post WWII Germany trail and dismissed that as not even a remotely fair comparison. US combat deaths virtually ceased in April, 1945.

 

[Larry Gude]

Sounds like...

visualized an economic collapse. He was no idiot. To strike at economic targets AND our seat of government would create a sustained panic in the world markets.

They do not want to contaminate thousands of square miles: they only want to create panic,...and let that do the damage: It us 8 years to dig out of the Great Depression, and we plunged into debt doing it. Now, we are VERY deeply in debt and do not have the morality or work ethic or funds to dig us out....nor the world's sympathy.
The radicals want to strike hard, fast, and soon: just to watch the chief protector of Israel flop around in throws of agony for a dozen years while Islam surges into Europe & Asia & Africa.---and we won't be able to stop it: militarily or economically.

...a really good pretext for killing and breaking the enemy to me. To bad we wasted the opportunity. Time muddles clarity and sense of purpose.

 

[cwo_ghwebb]

is to farm out those nuclear materials to whoever will do their bidding. The goal will be to do the shell game without the watchful eye of the UN inspectors. To get a nuke to detonate (with only the slightest trace of a hint ahead of time in some rambling riddle) and kill 100,000 Israelis (or Americans-remember: we have "great Satan" status)...they would love to shrug their shoulders and say...

"What? we didn't do that! How dare you accuse the lowly servants of Allah! Our peaceful religion doesn't allow for nuclear weapons!"

And what happens to the world markets? Oil prices? Dollar values?...one nuke would help cause a huge world depression--and since they live in general squalor: they say: who cares?

America has lost the initiative to do any more "first strikes" and I believe the majority of the world would clamor that we deserved it so...we would be warned severely about retaliating. Depending on who is in office, they might cave in to that pressure and then spend the next 200 years cleaning up the mess.

And you're not the only one who is thinking along those lines.

Jordanian Professor Advocates Suicide Terrorists Use Nuke Bombs

 

[PsyOps]

I would like some day, given the amount of correspondence we share, that you'd have a basic understanding of my positions. We should have LONG ago gotten out of Korea. Our involvements in Japan and Europe share a common trait; we won. Therefore you can rationally move on to rebuilding that which you defeated.

Well, I know you don’t care too much for jazz. How’s that? Given the N. Korea’s constant threat of nukes, why should we get out of there? Japan… well, it’s a strategic position given any threat from N. Korea or China. Europe… sure we won. After decades of Cold War.

In Iraq and Afghanistan we have not only NOT defeated the enemy we actively avoid doing so. Iran attacking ONE US trooper is an act of WAR. There are any number of extra governmental folks we've allowed to set up shop. You can NOT and will NOT defeat an enemy by not defeating them.

All the more reason to stay; don’t you think?

Bush had the time and resources to get on with it and he failed. He is not king. He does not get to be CIC for life. You get your shot in this country and then we move on.

Move on in politics, but we have to finish what we started. Bush’s failures should not be a measure for abandonment. Because Joe Gibbs failed as a coach to bring the Skins to the super bowl does that mean the Skins should pack up and call it quits? Close down the franchise?

If McCain chooses to pursue the basic surge and hope strategy that Bush chose, then we'll probably have more of the same; on going extra governmental entities and profound influence by Iran. If Obama actually makes us get out, good for him. Iraqi's have their pieces of a nation to run.

You have to know that if Obama gets his way, and we pull out leaving Iraq unequipped to take over, we will be right back in there. I think you will see an entirely different reporting on this. It will suddenly become a noble cause. But Obama seems uninterested in figuring out how to accomplish the right mix of political and military factors to get things right in Iraq; something Bush was unable to do. McCain will at least give that a go. Obama is aimed at taking the simplistic “cut and run” tactic. Surrender. Defeat.

We've also been down the post WWII Germany trail and dismissed that as not even a remotely fair comparison. US combat deaths virtually ceased in April, 1945.

You’ve dismissed it, not me. I find WWII a useful comparison to how you win a war. Both had unexpected events that followed major combat operations. but no one gave a second thought to staying the course in Europe even though (especially in Berlin) the circumstances were quite dire. We stayed the course for decades. With Iraq, because there are IEDs going off, we have to get out of there. That is the part of your position I'm not getting.

 

[Larry Gude]

!!!!!!!!!!

You’ve dismissed it, not me. I find WWII a useful comparison to how you win a war. Both had unexpected events that followed major combat operations. but no one gave a second thought to staying the course in Europe even though (especially in Berlin) the circumstances were quite dire. We stayed the course for decades. With Iraq, because there are IEDs going off, we have to get out of there. That is the part of your position I'm not getting.

We KILLED and DESTROYED in WWII. We played for keeps. George Bush and his geopolitical garbage has been getting US troops BLOWN to pieces by booby traps because he won't let them do their freaking job. Yeah, WWII is a great comparison; How to wage war vs. how to not wage war.

 

[PsyOps]

We KILLED and DESTROYED in WWII. We played for keeps. George Bush and his geopolitical garbage has been getting US troops BLOWN to pieces by booby traps because he won't let them do their freaking job. Yeah, WWII is a great comparison; How to wage war vs. how to not wage war.

Okay, now you are showing that you don’t have a basic understanding of my position.

First off let me say I only compare the two wars because of how, at the end of major combat operations a new, unexpected situation popped up that caused us to buy into, what appeared to be, an impossible situation to win. I don’t compare the cold war to what’s happening in Iraq in terms of violence; I only compare them in terms of how we thought we had won only to find out there is a new enemy that reared its ugly head. The major difference is how we view the violence. I keep raising this point because folks just aren’t seeing it. When the cold war broke out we didn’t have the plethora of media coverage to give a day-by-day body count; the perception is, no one was dying. But nothing could be farther from the truth. Berlin was a brutal, murderous, chaotic mess for years following the war. So much so, that it took ten years for Germany to regain their sovereignty. I’m not trying to compare the two in terms of strategy.

Secondly, I have agreed with you over and over on Bush’s failures. Does this mean we cut and run? Maybe you could look at it like a 16-year-old girl getting pregnant. It was a stupid mistake but do you abort or stay the course and have the baby. If you abort you have to live with the life-long consequences. If you stay the course you come up with a plan to survive it. As much as I believe Iraq was a noble cause, it was a stupid mistake. In others words Bush’s response to post-combat chaos was embarrassing to say the least. But I can’t see that as a reason to cut out. Everyone knows we have to find an answer both militarily and politically. But we don’t abandon the mess that we created. We’ve never done this; save Vietnam.

I am proposing the same thing you are; kill and destroy. Then clean up. We didn’t do this. We can’t do this as long as folks believe there has to be these uber-restrictive rules against things like waterboarding, protective measures here in the states, giving us daily body counts, stop with the negative ad campaign. If I could draft a plan the first thing I would do is get the media out. IMO they have done us more damage through their negative reporting than anything else. The second thing I would do is clean sweep the place. Ugly yes, but necessary. That’s how war is. People aren’t equipped to stomach it. We can’t win a war that the people don’t support. When war strategy bleeds into our politics then we have to recognize the problem. At the center of this problem is the negative propaganda by the left and the media.

 

[Larry Gude]

The...

Okay, now you are showing that you don’t have a basic understanding of my position.

First off let me say I only compare the two wars because of how, at the end of major combat operations a new, unexpected situation popped up that caused us to buy into, what appeared to be, an impossible situation to win. I don’t compare the cold war to what’s happening in Iraq in terms of violence; I only compare them in terms of how we thought we had won only to find out there is a new enemy that reared its ugly head.

Who? What enemy? The best I could ever find was a few hundred post April, 1945 European US troop deaths and most of those were accidents and suicides. There was no organized, incipient and dangerous resistance or insurgency post WWII because no moron stopped killing and destroying anyone who still wanted some. The war was won and OVER.

Good Lord, a trip to the park has unexpected consequences, but if you let the kids run around with sticky fingers and they get set upon by ants you can't exactly call that much more than poor planning.

 

[PsyOps]

Who? What enemy? The best I could ever find was a few hundred post April, 1945 European US troop deaths and most of those were accidents and suicides. There was no organized, incipient and dangerous resistance or insurgency post WWII because no moron stopped killing and destroying anyone who still wanted some. The war was won and OVER.

You're only making my point Larry. Please detail the media coverage then and now? The reason you don’t know about these things is because it wasn’t reported; and much of it happening secretively on the east side. People then weren't concerned about daily body counts. They were concerned about mushroom clouds. And you seem only concerned with military deaths. I've told you this before, my ex-mother-in-law is German. She has relatives in Berlin that lived through the terror they suffered in that city. I heard lots of stories of entire families being summarily executed for being suspected as spies. The perimeter around the east side of the wall was laden with landmines that were constantly going off by people trying to escape to the west. Those that didn’t get their legs blown off were shot. The war was far from over as this went on for years. This only describes Berlin. This doesn’t even discuss the chaos that existed in the rest of east Germany, Poland and other USSR block countries. You certainly have a difference definition of “won and over” than I do.

Good Lord, a trip to the park has unexpected consequences, but if you let the kids run around with sticky fingers and they get set upon by ants you can't exactly call that much more than poor planning.

Especially if they are fire ants.

 

[Larry Gude]

ohforcryingout...

You're only making my point Larry. Please detail the media coverage then and now? The reason you don’t know about these things is because it wasn’t reported; and much of it happening secretively on the east side. People then weren't concerned about daily body counts. They were concerned about mushroom clouds. And you seem only concerned with military deaths. I've told you this before, my ex-mother-in-law is German. She has relatives in Berlin that lived through the terror they suffered in that city. I heard lots of stories of entire families being summarily executed for being suspected as spies. The perimeter around the east side of the wall was laden with landmines that were constantly going off by people trying to escape to the west. Those that didn’t get their legs blown off were shot. The war was far from over as this went on for years. This only describes Berlin. This doesn’t even discuss the chaos that existed in the rest of east Germany, Poland and other USSR block countries. You certainly have a difference definition of “won and over” than I do.



Especially if they are fire ants.

...loud. That's why you jazz players make everything up; you're lazy. I looked this crap up in official deaths by date. This, as usual, doesn't have a thing to do with your favorite bogeyman and cause of all our ills; the media.

 

[Larry Gude]

That...

You certainly have a difference definition of “won and over” than I do.

...is a fact.

 

[Hessian]

Larry...

I like finality...However,...playing devil's advocate for the moment: What was the central element in the Russian failure to hold afghanistan? I do NOT believe that the US stingers were the deciding factor.

They used pretty brutal repression and it still backfired on them:
so...
Do we go that route and hammer them like Hannover in 1945? Every inch of ground is a target?

or...
Do we keep playing the Bush doctrine out: hoping that stability will convince a generation of Iraqis that democracy can work and is worth keeping...

or do we go the Obama route which involves a false hope in the UN, a rapid withdrawal, and Chanting Muslims firing their AK-47s in the air at their Supreme victory over the Satan of the West?

or do we try to partition the zones to try to keep the peace like breaking up the Austo-Hungarian Empire in 1919? or Germany in 1945?

Personally, I believe it would hurt our image, and military morale to pack and run. I really could care less about the Iraqis...they seem to be mostly a spineless collection of deviants, bumblers, frauds, and thugs. (DBFT?)
I do not understand with our 100% control of the air & survelliance capability that we seem to let tons of crap sneak in from the Iranians and then it blows our boys up. Where are our drones? Where are our mine fields?

I suppose if we seem hopeless to close our own borders....then we certainly can't guard theirs.

 

[Hessian]

How about a slight twist....

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond was quoted as saying. "In the most humble manner I look in your eyes today and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

The commander also read a letter of apology by the shooter, and another military official kissed a Quran and presented it to the tribal leaders, according to CNN.

(after incident with Quran target practice....) My Way News - US military: soldier shot at Quran for practice


Lets try it again 63 years ago:

General Bradley apologized sincerely to Gen Jodl and Adm Doenitz for the behavior of one of the occupying soldiers for shooting up a copy of Mein Kampf in the local platz. Bradley said he "...felt enormous regret." and pleaded with the local Munich population for calm and understanding.

A new copy was produced and dedicated at the local Burgermiester's residence, while the Army band played "Deutschland Uber Alles" to the grudging satisfaction of the local German populace.

So...have we actually won in Iraq?,...or has PC disease crippled us for good?

 

[Larry Gude]

The 'pc'...

General Bradley apologized So...have we actually won in Iraq?,...or has PC disease crippled us for good?

...disease is an excuse for poor leadership. Vrail said it before; all this crap could have been shut down, right then and there, had Bush walked out and said "So what?" about Abu Graib. He's been running around tryting to get farts back in the azz ever since. Things happen. Incidents happen.

 

[PsyOps]

ohforcryingoutloud. That's why you jazz players make everything up; you're lazy. I looked this crap up in official deaths by date. This, as usual, doesn't have a thing to do with your favorite bogeyman and cause of all our ills; the media.

I do make up my own music up; I hope that’s what you’re talking about. I don’t consider taking the time to travel to Germany, sitting and listening to what Berliners have to say as lazy. I believe it takes much more effort to get first-hand accounts than it does to click a couple of mouse buttons to retrieves the all-truthful info from the intarveb. And should I remind you, your source (which you didn’t bother to provide) talked about military deaths (as though that is all we should consider). I am trying to provide a much broader affect of the USSR threat in the eastern block. And if you can’t see the MSM has an agenda, why would you see them as any sort of bogeyman?